Star Wars: The Old Republic will kill WoW - outsourced to Broadsword

[RK47]

They have no incentive to change. If so much failure is forgiven and praised, why try for a small ounce of success?

 

[Papa Môlé]

MMOs have their own economies, everyone knows that, but you know what I just realized? MMOs of today are similar to a totalitarian communist society: Everyone is the same, stripped of their own individualism, creativity & entrepreneurism discouraged, heavy handed, opaque & callous rule, secret GM police watching your every move, massive propaganda campaigns to convert "believers" to their side, more propaganda campaigns for outside PR, and of course, a planned economy.

Boy are we lucky to live in 2012 and experience such games!

Capitalist economy "works" in the real world because you don't have to give a shit, generally, about all the people that get fucked over by it. In a world whose continued existence depends on people enjoying it, some form of planned economy is necessary.

 

[Renegen]

MMOs have their own economies, everyone knows that, but you know what I just realized? MMOs of today are similar to a totalitarian communist society: Everyone is the same, stripped of their own individualism, creativity & entrepreneurism discouraged, heavy handed, opaque & callous rule, secret GM police watching your every move, massive propaganda campaigns to convert "believers" to their side, more propaganda campaigns for outside PR, and of course, a planned economy.

Boy are we lucky to live in 2012 and experience such games!

Capitalist economy "works" in the real world because you don't have to give a shit, generally, about all the people that get fucked over by it. In a world whose continued existence depends on people enjoying it, some form of planned economy is necessary.

That's not my take on it, but interesting point. I see all these communist and tyrannical MMOs as more a representation of the corporate culture of their developers/publishers and how they treat their customers than the need to make everyone happy. I mean if someone complains about something, the thread is locked immediately right? And if someone just wants to have fun, they are banned for "exploiting".

It's an interesting point though, maybe the presence of the planned economy is a misguided attempt at making everyone happy indeed, the other bullshit is just a bonus.

edit: I play on and off again DDO and I have to say it's a more democratic MMO as far as mainstream crap goes. People abuse exploits all the time, but no one gets banned, they just patch it up. Some "exploits" exist for years, like exp windows or exp grinding or whatever, they don't get fixed. Right now they are popamoling the game with streamlined enhancement trees, but they had the decency to post a huge thread and ask people's opinions for what it should be.

 

[Papa Môlé]

The manner in which they express their totalitarianism certainly represents their corporate culture but that culture isn't the reason for their managerial attitude. Imagine what would happen if an MMO degenerated to the point modern capitalism has, and almost always inevitably does, where a tiny minority controls a huge majority of the wealth. It's not like the real world where the rich can just hang out on the balcony of their million dollar loft popping champagne and chortling down at protesting street occupiers. The rich in an MMO are going to be affected. This is because, while real world citizens don't have the option to simply "opt out" of the world around them, if the economy is that unequal in an MMO people will no doubt unsubscribe. The entire point of playing an MMO beyond banal socialization is mostly to indulge in your power fantasies you can't actualize in the real world. So, the more people that unsubscribe the less all that in world money even means to the people who have it, as the game becomes less populated and playable. You need to allow everyone in an MMO some way of feeling "powerful" (not necessarily "happy" though) but without depriving anyone else of the ability to feel likewise, which is also largely the reason MMOs don't normally allow for players to change the world state, especially in a way that would directly effect other players.

 

[Data4]

Well, even though it's a boring spreadsheet mining game, you have to give it to CCP for making cutthroat capitalism a central part of EVE. Back when I forced myself to give it a month, I thought I'd make a career out of just playing the market. There's potential there, but the boredom of the execution pushed me away.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

The manner in which they express their totalitarianism certainly represents their corporate culture but that culture isn't the reason for their managerial attitude. Imagine what would happen if an MMO degenerated to the point modern capitalism has, and almost always inevitably does, where a tiny minority controls a huge majority of the wealth. It's not like the real world where the rich can just hang out on the balcony of their million dollar loft popping champagne and chortling down at protesting street occupiers. The rich in an MMO are going to be affected. This is because, while real world citizens don't have the option to simply "opt out" of the world around them, if the economy is that unequal in an MMO people will no doubt unsubscribe. The entire point of playing an MMO beyond banal socialization is mostly to indulge in your power fantasies you can't actualize in the real world. So, the more people that unsubscribe the less all that in world money even means to the people who have it, as the game becomes less populated and playable. You need to allow everyone in an MMO some way of feeling "powerful" (not necessarily "happy" though) but without depriving anyone else of the ability to feel likewise, which is also largely the reason MMOs don't normally allow for players to change the world state, especially in a way that would directly effect other players.

And what you're talking about was exactly what made me quit Haven & Hearth. There's no point in playing the game if you're always going to be a bottom feeder because you didn't start when it first came out. No point in leveling up your smithy skill if you can never acquire any crafting materials due to pre-existing, unshakeable monopoly, and even if you could, your produce would always be so vastly inferior to said monopoly's that it'd be an exercise in futility.

 

[Interesting]

The manner in which they express their totalitarianism certainly represents their corporate culture but that culture isn't the reason for their managerial attitude. Imagine what would happen if an MMO degenerated to the point modern capitalism has, and almost always inevitably does, where a tiny minority controls a huge majority of the wealth. It's not like the real world where the rich can just hang out on the balcony of their million dollar loft popping champagne and chortling down at protesting street occupiers. The rich in an MMO are going to be affected. This is because, while real world citizens don't have the option to simply "opt out" of the world around them, if the economy is that unequal in an MMO people will no doubt unsubscribe. The entire point of playing an MMO beyond banal socialization is mostly to indulge in your power fantasies you can't actualize in the real world. So, the more people that unsubscribe the less all that in world money even means to the people who have it, as the game becomes less populated and playable. You need to allow everyone in an MMO some way of feeling "powerful" (not necessarily "happy" though) but without depriving anyone else of the ability to feel likewise, which is also largely the reason MMOs don't normally allow for players to change the world state, especially in a way that would directly effect other players.

There are many ways to effectivelly "opt out" of real life. Muslim demography can "opt out" the western civilization and culture/religion/justice system. The same way US forces "opted out" Sadam regimen. The same way one weaker indian opted out a stronger hero warrior of his tribe through the course of history just to assume a more proeminent role. People oftenly mistake "opt out" with suicide. The simple fact of posting opinions on a forum, Im "opting out" a subject on people's minds.

So everything you said after "opt out" needs to be rethought, certainly affecting the consequences you reached.

 

[Papa Môlé]

No it doesn't, unless you live in a fantasy world where the majority of citizens both have the means, the skills, and the will to completely drop off the grid, the average person is inextricably tied to the modern global economy. And if even the average person could opt out, it is nowhere near as simple and easy as just stopping play and unsubscribing from an MMO.

 

[Morgoth]

Now I actually bothered to watch a couple of recent gameplay scenes longer than ~1 minute.

Is it just me, or does this game look like shit, and run like shit? I mean all tis long work and it's just WoW + Full Voice acting. Not sure what the hype is all about, 'cause The Secret World looks clearly more interesting to me.

 

[Azrael the cat]

No it doesn't, unless you live in a fantasy world where the majority of citizens both have the means, the skills, and the will to completely drop off the grid, the average person is inextricably tied to the modern global economy. And if even the average person could opt out, it is nowhere near as simple and easy as just stopping play and unsubscribing from an MMO.

As you might imagine, in my time in the humanities end of academia, I've seen numerous individuals try to 'drop out' of the grid - less than in the hippy days of the 60s, but still my fair share of aquaintances who have chosen to try to live disconnected to global capitalism. They've joined collectives, grown and farmed their own food etc.

On EVERY occasion, they have failed. I don't just mean they've failed to survive (though that is also true - people get sick of each other, the problems they attribute to global capital re-emerge in the collective, arguments form over who isn't doing enough work and who is using too many of the resources, etc). I mean that they've failed to disconnect. Okay, let's put aside the fact that they must own property in order to live disconnected, as property in some ways existed prior to capitalism. They have had to engage in trade, in banking and engagement with the outside world. But more than engagement - their existence simply couldn't be without reliance on an outside capitalist system. They haven't been willing to start from scratch without the telecommunications and conveniences of modern living. Nor would they be equipped to survive without them - at the very least, without modern farming equipment (the convenient small-scale intensive garden farm is quite the miracle of modern farming).

I'm not saying it is literally impossible - just that it seems to be beyond our first world capabilitiies. And that isn't unreasonable. We need more than food, water and security to survive. Even the Daoists knew that. We need those things, and then a society, so that we can have some sense of personhood, of identity, of purpose and personal clarity. You know, all those wanky things that separate us from being hyper-intelligent monkeys living in a zoo.

THAT is what we can't have while disconnecting. Without a society, we're just apes, locked in a Hobbesian struggle to survive and pass on our genes. And the downside of globalism, is that choice of societies is rapidly thinning out.

 

[Azrael the cat]

No it doesn't, unless you live in a fantasy world where the majority of citizens both have the means, the skills, and the will to completely drop off the grid, the average person is inextricably tied to the modern global economy. And if even the average person could opt out, it is nowhere near as simple and easy as just stopping play and unsubscribing from an MMO.

As you might imagine, in my time in the humanities end of academia, I've seen numerous individuals try to 'drop out' of the grid - less than in the hippy days of the 60s, but still my fair share of aquaintances who have chosen to try to live disconnected to global capitalism. They've joined collectives, grown and farmed their own food etc.

On EVERY occasion, they have failed. I don't just mean they've failed to survive (though that is also true - people get sick of each other, the problems they attribute to global capital re-emerge in the collective, arguments form over who isn't doing enough work and who is using too many of the resources, etc). I mean that they've failed to disconnect. Okay, let's put aside the fact that they must own property in order to live disconnected, as property in some ways existed prior to capitalism. They have had to engage in trade, in banking and engagement with the outside world. But more than engagement - their existence simply couldn't be without reliance on an outside capitalist system. They haven't been willing to start from scratch without the telecommunications and conveniences of modern living. Nor would they be equipped to survive without them - at the very least, without modern farming equipment (the convenient small-scale intensive garden farm is quite the miracle of modern farming).

I'm not saying it is literally impossible - just that it seems to be beyond our first world capabilitiies. And that isn't unreasonable. We need more than food, water and security to survive. Even the Daoists knew that. We need those things, and then a society, so that we can have some sense of personhood, of identity, of purpose and personal clarity. You know, all those wanky things that separate us from being hyper-intelligent monkeys living in a zoo.

THAT is what we can't have while disconnecting. Without a society, we're just apes, locked in a Hobbesian struggle to survive and pass on our genes. And the downside of globalism, is that choice of societies is rapidly thinning out.

Edit: not saying this as necessarily an anti-globalism or anti-capitalist argument. There are aspects of globalism that I very much like, and I'm skeptical that a system that completely rejects captialism can do any better, i.e. that it's a matter of SOME kind of capitalism is necessary, whether an attempt to harness chinese state capitalism with a better democratic model, or a scandinavian mixed economy, or Australian redistribution of wealth and focussed institutions (we don't pay scandinavian style tax or have their level of government sector, but we make sure that things like state schools, state housing, state-funded universities (2/3 government paid, 1/3 gets added to your taxes once you earn above a certain point) get looked after).

Globalism might eradicate choice of society, but prior to globalism only the few most wealthy individuals were able to choose their society anyway. The rest got lumped with wherever they were born. Mostly, that remains the case.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

THAT is what we can't have while disconnecting. Without a society, we're just apes, locked in a Hobbesian struggle to survive and pass on our genes. And the downside of globalism, is that choice of societies is rapidly thinning out.

Just to nitpick, without society we would no longer be apes, which is where things start to fall apart.

 

[bot]

The manner in which they express their totalitarianism certainly represents their corporate culture but that culture isn't the reason for their managerial attitude. Imagine what would happen if an MMO degenerated to the point modern capitalism has, and almost always inevitably does, where a tiny minority controls a huge majority of the wealth. It's not like the real world where the rich can just hang out on the balcony of their million dollar loft popping champagne and chortling down at protesting street occupiers. The rich in an MMO are going to be affected. This is because, while real world citizens don't have the option to simply "opt out" of the world around them, if the economy is that unequal in an MMO people will no doubt unsubscribe. The entire point of playing an MMO beyond banal socialization is mostly to indulge in your power fantasies you can't actualize in the real world. So, the more people that unsubscribe the less all that in world money even means to the people who have it, as the game becomes less populated and playable. You need to allow everyone in an MMO some way of feeling "powerful" (not necessarily "happy" though) but without depriving anyone else of the ability to feel likewise, which is also largely the reason MMOs don't normally allow for players to change the world state, especially in a way that would directly effect other players.

Unlike in MMO worlds*, RL wealth can be used to change the rules of the game (i.e. lobbying or straightforward bribery in representative democracy) - meaning it can affect it's own future growth, in perpetual self-reinforcing cycle. As you probably realize, this is one of the main problems Occupy movement (among many much more seasoned dissent movements) has with the current state of capitalism. There are no boundaries to ways in which RL wealth can be used because IRL wealth is liquid power. In MMOs currency is just a token for very few, previously predefined and prepared goods. The false parity between the two might be a result of, well, semantics. In most MMOs in-game currency is just a small part of in-game wealth. As far as I am concerned, and I really dislike half-assed conspiracy theories, there is no entity or organization that stands above international monetary system. Everything, even the IMF, is subject to market and monetary sytem and the laws and forces Fund introduces to steer them.

There are incomparably more artificial constrains on the uses of in-game currencies. From the top limit on how much 'gold' an account can have to bans for gaming lil Timmy the 12 year old in fair trade. What's more, there is no central emitent of legal tender (unless you count manipulation of the amount of 'gold' drops, prices of goods/consumables/ing-game services, introduction of 'gold-sinks' as tools of monetary policy - these are rarely, if ever, used) In many MMORPGs gaming and/or winning the market is a bannable offense because the authority (game's developer/operator) has no interest in virtual treasure. I's a cheap way of fixing ill-considered gameplay element. The well being of a tiny fraction (the smartest and most dedicated by chance) of the playerbase isn't dev's concern because the harm to the whole system is too great. No wonder IRL totalitarians fancy condemnation without a trial - it's the equivalent of the banhammer. So easy!

So accumulation of wealth in MMOs is not really an issue. I already explained that in-game currency is not really the wealth. I would go further and say that avatar's prowess (items, levels, corporation/guild, etc.) is the real wealth as it allows the player to dominate game's content more efficiently. And in most games there is a distinct barrier to how much currency can improve your avatar's power level.

*extreme example to the contrary: Eve's market monopolist uses his wealth to buy over Council of Stellar Management. The power of this in-game entity is limited in comparison to RL legislators but still it's the most advanced one in MMO genre.
Or:
Gold Farming entity convinces MMO's employee to implement a well-hidden exploit and agrees to split profits from selling the in-game currency for RL one. This would be short lived for sure.

 

[Grunker]

THAT is what we can't have while disconnecting. Without a society, we're just apes, locked in a Hobbesian struggle to survive and pass on our genes. And the downside of globalism, is that choice of societies is rapidly thinning out.

Just to nitpick, without society we would no longer be apes, which is where things start to fall apart.

That's not a nitpick. It's a pretty central concept that society and reliance on others isn't a human construct like most humanity-pessimists would have you believe.

 

[markec]

I went surfing of few sites, most notably mmorpg.com and swtor official forum I saw quite a lot topics about people quitting the game in large numbers. Some already have started calling out Swtor to be a major flop but i find it hard to believe that Biowhores will so easily quit giving money to Bioware. So any comments for on the real truth form Codexs Swtor players?

 

[Kz3r0]

I went surfing of few sites, most notably mmorpg.com and swtor official forum I saw quite a lot topics about people quitting the game in large numbers. Some already have started calling out Swtor to be a major flop but i find it hard to believe that Biowhores will so easily quit giving money to Bioware. So any comments for on the real truth form Codexs Swtor players?

Because probably they are Forcefags more than Biowhores.

 

[markec]

I went surfing of few sites, most notably mmorpg.com and swtor official forum I saw quite a lot topics about people quitting the game in large numbers. Some already have started calling out Swtor to be a major flop but i find it hard to believe that Biowhores will so easily quit giving money to Bioware. So any comments for on the real truth form Codexs Swtor players?

Because probably they are Forcefags more than Biowhores.

True but Biowhores are probably their biggest customers and they could live off them easily, they just need to add monthly romance expansions to keep them happy.

 

[Sergiu64]

I went surfing of few sites, most notably mmorpg.com and swtor official forum I saw quite a lot topics about people quitting the game in large numbers. Some already have started calling out Swtor to be a major flop but i find it hard to believe that Biowhores will so easily quit giving money to Bioware. So any comments for on the real truth form Codexs Swtor players?

Isn't that always the case? Hordes of people jump in to check out the game, then leave after a month or two?

From my end I have not noticed a huge drop in player numbers, but yeah some people in guild ended up not liking the game and have gone elsewhere.

 

[Excidium]

Well it apparently did its damage to wow subs, check out the new scroll of resurrection:

 

[Black]

Well it apparently did its damage to wow subs, check out the new scroll of resurrection:

Eh, I wonder how much does it have to do with TOR, really. I think WoW may be losing subs because it got stale and on top of that, they're getting a fucking panda expansion with pokemans combat.

 

[Yeesh]

Well it apparently did its damage to wow subs, check out the new scroll of resurrection:

Eh, I wonder how much does it have to do with TOR, really. I think WoW may be losing subs because it got stale and on top of that, they're getting a fucking panda expansion with pokemans combat.

Hee hee. I have a feeling they're expecting that panda expansion to do quite the opposite of losing them subs. The number of 10-14 year olds who've already been MMO-lite-ing on their iphones for months and years is something most of us haven't even contemplated. There's a new generation rising and instead of that greatly limited olde-timey pipeline of loser kids going from RPGs -> MMOs like WoW, ActiBlizz is trying to tap into the way, way broader pipeline of Disney/Pixar/other cartoons -> WoW. If they're even slightly successful, the payoff should be vast.

Also, asia. You know, asia. I think TOR's appeal will end up being the more limited one, relative to the new panda-fied WoW. Not that it was ever a fair contest anyway but still.

Anyway I find it frustrating that we dn't actually have data on WoW subs. Especially because I don't see how you can tell the difference between fishing for subscribers because a company's in dire straits versus fishing for subscribers because well fucking of course you want more subscribers, right? It's worth noting that they still haven't made it free to play. You can play up to level 20 for free, but nowadays that is maybe 10 or 15 hours tops.

 

[Black]

While lurking on 4chains, I found this.
http://chanarchive.org/4chan/v/40574#133856375
Seems EA is getting pretty... desperate :bpage:

 

[Excidium]

 

[Black]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=400532

 

[Excidium]

Oh, /v/...