Starfield Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[rusty_shackleford]

It makes absolute sense that my fucking beefcake Nord barbarian wielding a huge battle axe becomes master of the Thieves guild! And an archmage...
Aaaand an assassin...

yes

the protagonist of skyrim is basically a god lorewise

and I mean a real one, not a morrowind-tier fake god

 

[Latelistener]

Who said that in order for you to have a sense of agenda it has to be a linear experience? New Vegas has all the same stuff as Skyrim, except the world actually reacts to you, your deeds, accomplishments and failures. Skyrim's world is dead and static and nothing you do matters. This is the exact opposite of how RPG should be done.

I certainly don't disagree that Skyrim could be way more reactive, but I do disagree that you can essentially only make one character and that "nothing matters" if you play differently. The freedom to play differently is the reward and I don't need a cookie for taking advantage of it.

Essentially to the game world you're playing the same character and nothing you do will change that as it was built that way. I always get a good laugh when people explain how they play as some kind of badass necromancers in Skyrim, when the game world never acknowledges that. It's a death sentence for an RPG. You could theoretically roleplay in Quake. Never shoot anyone and pretend that you are some kind of pacifist (and then die eventually). Should be a reward on its own I guess. Is Quake a good RPG?

What exactly you can do with a specific character that others cannot? There is literally 0 unique content for any character and 0 motivation for subsequent walkthroughs. Quests all have two outcomes at best and they affect nothing. The best you can do in this game is decide in which order you digest its content and how you kill or avoid enemies and that's the level of Far Cry, except combat is shit.

 

[Harthwain]

Well .. now we're back to behavior. Could I have played my warrior character, done the Mage Guild quests, and become the 'Archmage'? Certainly I could have, if that was the asinine story I chose to tell. And people with no imagination will do that, because the quest is there and it never occurs to them not to, and then they blame the game for being so stupid. (Three guesses whose fault it really is.)

No, I disagree with you on that. It has less to do with players' behavior and more with game design. Because, let's face it, becoming the Archmage when not even being really a mage is nonsense. Unless you have something like political power to back it up (which could be cool for a character who can "buy his way" into power, but you don't).

The design flaw becomes more apparent when you take into consideration that you literally cannot access the College of Winterhold without passing the "magic test". Even if all you want is to pick up a book or something. So you can become the leader of the guild while having very low magical skills (and just about enough mana to cast a required spell), but you can't get into the building if you have no magic at all. It's that stupid.

While I can agree that a free-form RPG can be LARPing to a degree, it still ought to have some systems in place to support player's playstyle(s). Lack of a system doesn't mean you can put all the blame on "people with no imagination" who... play the game. Thing is - it's easier to not do any this and pretend it's all part of "the plan", thereby avoiding all the extra work required.

And for the record, the stats weren't meaningless. Could my wizard character pick up a sword and stab things? Sure he could, and he did pull a weapon once or twice. But he was indeed bad at it, not only from sheer low numbers but also in the lack of cool combat perks my warrior had. Again: they played very differently based on what I chose for them to be good and bad at. Could I have built up his swordfighting stat and neglected magic? Certainly, if I chose to, but I wasn't required to and I played for dozens of hours without feeling any pressure to.

I do agree that Skyrim made it feel a little too easy to be good at a lot of things. I would have loved for skill decay to be much more harsh after hitting a certain point of specializations.

It's not that "stats are meaningless" but if you can do everything, then you don't have to make another character. In my opinion having limits is an important aspect of differentiating between characters and giving them, well... a character. It can also support multiple playthroughs, because if playing as warrior is going to feel different from playing as a rogue or mage, then it is work for that experience alone. But if you can't play as warrior-rogue-mage, then there is no real motivation to do so.

 

[Zombra]

Essentially to the game world you're playing the same character and nothing you do will change that as it was built that way. I always get a good laugh when people explain how they play as some kind of badass necromancers in Skyrim, when the game world never acknowledges that. It's a death sentence for an RPG. You could theoretically roleplay in Quake. Never shoot anyone and pretend that you are some kind of pacifist (and then die eventually). Should be a reward on its own I guess. Is Quake a good RPG?

Not making a stellar case here. Your major point is that the game must 'acknowledge' your behavior in order for it to be meaningful, stick to that.

We're more in agreement than you seem to think. Quake is not built to let you play it in a ton of different ways. Skyrim is. You could TRY to play Quake as a pacifist but you wouldn't last 10 seconds. Yet in Skyrim I played as a pacifist for 50+ hours, finished tons of quests, and generally had a great time. Again, that's the point and it's the answer to the original question "Why do you find Bethesda games appealing?" which started this whole conversation.

Let's face it, becoming the Archmage when not even being really a mage is nonsense.

Of course it is. The game gives you the agency to do nonsense if you want - I have never denied this. But the point isn't whether nonsense is possible; it's whether you have the agency to do things that make sense to you and are fun for you. The diverse ways I chose to play made sense to me and were fun for me, and would not have been possible in most RPGs.

The design flaw becomes more apparent when you take into consideration that you literally cannot access the College of Winterhold without passing the "magic test". Even if all you want is to pick up a book or something. So you can become the leader of the guild while having very low magical skills (and just about enough mana to cast a required spell), but you can't get into the building if you have no magic at all. It's that stupid.

Oh, 100% agreed that was primo grade bullshit. A lot of the quests were idiotic and the game often blocked progress like this, forcing you to do idiotic things. I never said the game was perfect and I will absolutely go on record saying it was never perfect. That doesn't change the fact that it offered a level of behavioral freedom unmatched in most RPGs.

While I can agree that a free-form RPG can be LARPing to a degree, it still ought to have some systems in place to support player's playstyle(s).

Of course, and I'd love to see more systems that support a multitude of playstyles.

Lack of a system doesn't mean you can put all the blame on "people with no imagination" who... play the game.

I absolutely can. So many Codexers choose to play games in unenjoyable ways because "that's how you're supposed to play", when they could so easily be having fun instead. It's a very common theme here. We can go as deep as you want into this but I warn you, you may never dig your way back out.

Okay, not ALL the blame

Thing is - it's easier to not do any this and pretend it's all part of "the plan", thereby avoiding all the extra work required.

Not sure I know what you mean here. Easier for the developers to not build systems, you mean? If so, I agree. Not a perfect game and they could have done a lot more to support more playstyles - to give out cookies to Latelistener for example for playing different ways, or better yet develop deeper systems for noncombat skills, which were all even more undercooked than the combat. Nevertheless, the game does give space for different playstyles to work and be enjoyable, and enough content that you don't have to be the Archmage unless you choose to.

I may be misunderstanding your intent there - if so, please rephrase.

It's not that "stats are meaningless" but if you can do everything, then you don't have to make another character.

That's the thing about giving agency - the player doesn't really "have to" do anything. I didn't "have to" make 4 different characters, but I had the agency to and it was very rewarding for me to do so. (Whereas in Fallout 4, there seemed to be absolutely no point in making more than one character because there's no way to complete any missions except to walk forward clicking on things.)

In my opinion having limits is an important aspect of differentiating between characters and giving them, well... a character. It can also support multiple playthroughs, because if playing as warrior is going to feel different from playing as a rogue or mage, then it is work for that experience alone. But if you can't play as warrior-rogue-mage, then there is no real motivation to do so.

Yeah, I agree that limits give decisions a lot more "oomph". Skyrim's basic design is "every time you skill up, the next skill up becomes harder", but the curve is way, way too flat for my tastes. Shit should slow down a lot harder a lot quicker.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Three guesses whose fault it really is.

Games fault for being stupid.

 

[NecroLord]

It makes absolute sense that my fucking beefcake Nord barbarian wielding a huge battle axe becomes master of the Thieves guild! And an archmage...
Aaaand an assassin...

yes

the protagonist of skyrim is basically a god lorewise

and I mean a real one, not a morrowind-tier fake god

Where does it say?
If anything, the Nerevarine is a real deal demigod, since you actually fight fucking living gods(Dagoth Ur, Almalexia, possibly even Vivec), not some black dragon cartoon villain.
Dragonborn's power of "oH, I cAn tHuUm, AAAAA, I'm THOOOOOMING" is a shit power to have. There are only a couple of shouts which remain useful throughout the entire game. In Morrowind you can fucking break the magic system in almost any way you desire. Create custom spells which annihilate everything within 50 feet of you. Regenerate obscene amounts of health per second. Render yourself immune to normal damage, etc.

 

[Wunderbar]

Nerevarine is a real deal demigod, since you actually fight fucking living gods(Dagoth Ur, Almalexia, possibly even Vivec), not some black dragon cartoon villain.

none of them are real gods, though.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It makes absolute sense that my fucking beefcake Nord barbarian wielding a huge battle axe becomes master of the Thieves guild! And an archmage...
Aaaand an assassin...

yes

the protagonist of skyrim is basically a god lorewise

and I mean a real one, not a morrowind-tier fake god

Where does it say?
If anything, the Nerevarine is a real deal demigod, since you actually fight fucking living gods(Dagoth Ur, Almalexia, possibly even Vivec), not some black dragon cartoon villain.
Dragonborn's power of "oH, I cAn tHuUm, AAAAA, I'm THOOOOOMING" is a shit power to have. There are only a couple of shouts which remain useful throughout the entire game. In Morrowind you can fucking break the magic system in almost any way you desire. Create custom spells which annihilate everything within 50 feet of you. Regenerate obscene amounts of health per second. Render yourself immune to normal damage, etc.

the dragonborn has part of akatosh's soul + absorbs the souls of all the dragons he's killed, including at one point, alduin.

yes, the dragonborn is indisputably more powerful than the nerevarine

since you actually fight fucking living gods(Dagoth Ur, Almalexia, possibly even Vivec),

what do you think alduin is?
just to make sure you're aware: alduin has created daedric princes(hello, mehrunes dagon) who make the fake gods you listed look like children.

just imagine the LDB as one of those superheroes that absorbs the powers of others, because that's basically what he is except with dragons

 

[Lokiamis]

the dragonborn has part of akatosh's soul + absorbs the souls of all the dragons he's killed, including at one point, alduin.

I think Alduin's soul specifically fucks off into the sky and you don't absorb it.

 

[EvilWolf]

Nerevarine is a real deal demigod, since you actually fight fucking living gods(Dagoth Ur, Almalexia, possibly even Vivec), not some black dragon cartoon villain.

none of them are real gods, though.

t. Lorelet

 

[NecroLord]

Not a god, you say?

 

[NecroLord]

 

[Latelistener]

Not making a stellar case here. Your major point is that the game must 'acknowledge' your behavior in order for it to be meaningful, stick to that.

We're more in agreement than you seem to think. Quake is not built to let you play it in a ton of different ways. Skyrim is. You could TRY to play Quake as a pacifist but you wouldn't last 10 seconds. Yet in Skyrim I played as a pacifist for 50+ hours, finished tons of quests, and generally had a great time. Again, that's the point and it's the answer to the original question "Why do you find Bethesda games appealing?" which started this whole conversation.

That's the thing, unfortunately: they don't appeal to me. I have tried replaying it with a bunch of mods, but once I realized that the game, its quests and everything else will be the same because there are no meaningful choices in the game and your character's build or playstyle will not change or affect anything regarding the outcomes − it was just a boredom. And as I keep saying multiple times, there is nothing else in the game that could hold you as its in-game systems are sub-par compared to Morrowind or Daggerfall and quests and guild storylines can't compete with Oblivion.

Overall, there are just much better games with this "Bethesda appeal" as you called it (maybe it's not even the main appeal at all). I have played Mount & Blade extensively back in the days and that game actually supports your multitude of playstyles and it was never boring despite it being open-ended without any kind of main objective or hand holding. So I think your main reasoning for me or anyone else not having fun because we can't find our own fun in the game is not really valid.

 

[Zombra]

That's the thing, unfortunately: they don't appeal to me. I think your main reasoning for me or anyone else not having fun because we can't find our own fun in the game is not really valid.

That's cool. I kind of lost sight of the target here and went from explaining why I like Bethesda games to why other players are bad people for not playing the same way I do. So apologies for that.

I still maintain that for players with my style, which it's possible is a set of one person on this planet, (some) Bethesda games are built very well for me to stretch my creative wings in and I hope to be able to do so again in Starfield.

If you have suggestions for other better games with this kind of freedom I'd love to hear about them. (I very much enjoyed Kenshi.)

 

[Harthwain]

I absolutely can. So many Codexers choose to play games in unenjoyable ways because "that's how you're supposed to play", when they could so easily be having fun instead. It's a very common theme here. We can go as deep as you want into this but I warn you, you may never dig your way back out.

Okay, not ALL the blame

The problem isn't in "playing games in unenjoyable ways". The problem is in game producing nonsensical results as a result of people simply playing the game. I mean, how you becoming an ARCHMAGE makes sense when you can barely cast a spell to past the initial test? I am not even talking about you being at moderate level of magic, I literally mean the absolute basics.

Not sure I know what you mean here. Easier for the developers to not build systems, you mean?

Yes, you got it.

That's the thing about giving agency - the player doesn't really "have to" do anything. I didn't "have to" make 4 different characters, but I had the agency to and it was very rewarding for me to do so.

You can do as many or as few characters as you want. That isn't the point though (or not all of it, at least).

Going back to the tried and tired example of being a guildmaster: you can be the leader of all guilds in Skyrim and there are no real requirements to speak of, so you can do all of them on a single character, regardless of what kind of character you are. You can be the leader of all guilds in Morrowind, but there are requirements in place, meaning it is still possible to do, but requires leveling up certain skills in order to progress and some characters will naturally have easier time joining certain guilds. Which makes more sense than what Skyrim does (and that's my point).

 

[Zombra]

The problem isn't in "playing games in unenjoyable ways". The problem is in game producing nonsensical results as a result of people simply playing the game. I mean, how you becoming an ARCHMAGE makes sense when you can barely cast a spell to past the initial test? I am not even talking about you being at moderate level of magic, I literally mean the absolute basics.

Yeah. We're not in disagreement here. Skyrim forces some really heinous stupid shit .. sometimes. (Shamus Young's takedown of Skyrim's entire Thieves' Guild questline is a masterwork if you want a much deeper example of how stupid it can be.) And I'm not happy about having to "eat around the rotten bits". The fact that the game has glaring flaws doesn't change why I enjoyed it though.

 

[Delterius]

or become the archmage.

can't you become the archmage knowing literally one basic spell

 

[NecroLord]

Indeed.
In Skyrim, you just need to complete the quests.
In the older games you actually had to have at least a magic skill up to a certain level.
Daggerfall - Two magic skills at 87.
Morrowind - One magic skill at 90 and two at 35.

Magic is fucking atrocious in Skyrim.

 

[Caim]

or become the archmage.

can't you become the archmage knowing literally one basic spell

You need high level magic skills in Morrowind to become archmage, but do you need to actually need to cast a spell to become archmage?

 

[Delterius]

or become the archmage.

can't you become the archmage knowing literally one basic spell

You need high level magic skills in Morrowind to become archmage, but do you need to actually need to cast a spell to become archmage?

Tenured professor of theoretical magics sounds like a sweet gig.

Alternatively: 'I told them I have a theoretical degree in conjuration'

 

[Caim]

or become the archmage.

can't you become the archmage knowing literally one basic spell

You need high level magic skills in Morrowind to become archmage, but do you need to actually need to cast a spell to become archmage?

Tenured professor of theoretical magics sounds like a sweet gig.

Alternatively: 'I told them I have a theoretical degree is conjuration'

The archmage in Morrowind is one of those who got kicked to the boonies just to get rid of his annoying yet powerful ass.

 

[Spectacle]

The game kinda aknowledges that the standards for becoming Archmage at Winderhold aren't all that high. If you meet Neloth of House Telvanni on Solsteheim and tell him you're the Archmage, he replies something like "Oh an Archmage eh? If you study for a couple more decades, maybe you can qualify to become one of my apprentices".

 

[Delterius]

The game kinda aknowledges that the standards for becoming Archmage at Winderhold aren't all that high. If you meet Neloth of House Telvanni on Solsteheim and tell him you're the Archmage, he replies something like "Oh an Archmage eh? If you study for a couple more decades, maybe you can qualify to become one of my apprentices".

yeah but i also half expect that you can be the grand poobah of the thieves guild without stealing anything

 

[Utgard-Loki]

The game kinda aknowledges that the standards for becoming Archmage at Winderhold aren't all that high. If you meet Neloth of House Telvanni on Solsteheim and tell him you're the Archmage, he replies something like "Oh an Archmage eh? If you study for a couple more decades, maybe you can qualify to become one of my apprentices".

god fucking damn do i hate skyrim, dragonborn and elder scrolls online. i'm so glad i jerked off in those fagpride robes he asked for. enjoy, you fucking loser!

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Tenured professor of theoretical magics sounds like a sweet gig.

Alternatively: 'I told them I have a theoretical degree is conjuration'

The archmage in Morrowind is one of those who got kicked to the boonies just to get rid of his annoying yet powerful ass.

• credentials:
  • "[Tiram Gadar's Credentials has been added to your inventory.] I'm sure I have them somewhere around here. Ah, yes, here you go, %PCName. A letter from Ocato himself."
  • "I have already given you Tiram Gadar's credentials. They should assure you that he is a Dunmer of the highest character."
• Disappearance of the Dwarves
  • "It's a simple task, surely. Just go to some ruins and... erm... and find out what happened to them. Maybe some people here in the Mages Guild can give you some clues."
  • [Disposition +25.] "Oh? Let me see these books, %PCRank. Oh, yes, of course. This "Egg of Time" is quite obvious... in its... um... descriptions... of the things... that happened. Yes, of course. It is all quite clear to me. I would prefer that you wrote a report that... um... simplified your findings, but I trust that you have indeed solved the mystery."
  • "Well, I'm glad that the mystery is solved at last. Next time the Arch-Mage of Almalexia visits, I'll really have something to brag about.
• Telvanni spy:
  • "Why, no, %PCName. There are no Telvanni spies here. And I would know if there were. I'm the Archmage [sic] after all. Tiram Gadar, my Dunmer advisor, keeps an eye out for spies and that sort of thing."
  • "Why, no, %PCName. There are no Telvanni spies here. And I would know if there were."
    • Truth; Tiram Gadar is a Telvanni spy. [Disposition -5.] "What?! Frankly, I don't believe you. Tiram Gadar is my most trusted advisor. And I've given you his impeccable credentials. Ranis Athrys might believe such baseless accusations, but I am far more sophisticated." Goodbye
    • Lie; Ranis Athrys is a Telvanni spy. "What? I thought she hated them after what they did to her parents... But I have heard she was trying to intimidate rogue Telvanni to join the Guild. Tiram Gadar mentioned that the Dunmer are quite upset over some of her actions. I will have her expelled immediately."
  • "It seems you found the spy, %PCRank."
• Tiram Gadar:
  • "You killed him, %PCName. While he was not truly a member of the guild, no one admires your actions."
  • "He's been of immense assistance, %PCName. He helps me see the Dunmer side of every decision I make, and he came with the highest credentials."
• Peacefully Becoming Arch-Mage
  • "What? You have a letter for me? Well, hand it over."
    • Here it is. "Interesting. This letter says that I am to make you the Arch-Mage and retire. I do not know why Ocato would lose his faith in me, but I will do as he asks. But I will watch over you, %PCName, and make sure you do not betray the high principles of the Mages Guild."

• "Trebonius gave you some duties? Last year he asked me to dig a tunnel to the mainland so the Telvanni couldn't interfere with Imperial trade. I just tell him it's progressing according to schedule." --Malven Romori, Mages Guild Wizard
• "I don't care what he asked you to do. The best thing for all of us is to ignore that Scuttlehead. Last year he asked me to learn the language of the Silt Striders so we could question them about who they took to different cities." --Sirilonwe, Mages Guild Conjurer
• "The Guildmaster? Well, he's certainly a powerful Battlemage, but what has he accomplished? I wish the Guild were led by someone who showed more respect for scholarship... Especially with all the interesting things to study here in Vvardenfell." --Edwinna Elbert, Mages Guild Wizard
• "Ah, the current Guildmaster. It is rumored that he was promoted to his current position to get him out of Cyrodiil. It is one of the weaknesses of the soft-skins. They can have power without wisdom." --Skink-in-Tree's-Shade, Mages Guild Master Wizard
• "Imperial s'wit. He knows nothing of the Dunmer and even less of politics. When you're speaking with him, just nod your head and smile and then forget everything he said." --Ranis Athrys, Mages Guild Wizard
• "We get along rather well. He is always willing to listen to my advice." --Tiram Gadar, A Telvanni Agent spying on the Mages Guild
• "The other day he asked me to build a new Anumidium for Ocato since the original seems to have been destroyed in all those troubles in the Iliac Bay. I don't know what he asked you to do, but my advice is to try and ignore him." --Janand Maulinie, Mages Guild Journeyman
• "Has he given you any duties? He asked me to chain an army of dreugh to the Foreign Quarter Canton and have it towed to a more reasonable climate. Just between you and me, I don't think he's the best candidate for Arch-mage. I'd take that lizard Skink in Sadrith Mora over Trebonius any day." --Craetia Jullalian, Mages Guild Apprentice
• "Did he give you any duties? Oh, that's not so bad, I guess. He asked me to make an inventory of all the plates and bottles in Vvardenfell. I'm never going to get in done in time." --Flacassia Fauseius, Mages Guild Apprentice