Starfield Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[gurugeorge]

I went ahead an timestamped the part where he walks with a clowns swagger, looks like a turd in an "nasapunk" suit, and his eyebrows add to his retarded surprised look in ways never intended for human facial expression. Bethesda wanted us to see this.

As I predicted lol. Bethesda still haven't progressed beyond the level of Thunderbirds puppetry

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

What did you predict? That video is from June of last year.

 

[gurugeorge]

What did you predict? That video is from June of last year.

See my post just above in response to King Crispy. What I was saying to him, effectively was, "I haven't seen that character in action, but I predict that if I do, the model/animation will be crappy."

And I was right!

(I probably did see it, if it's from that promotional vid from a while ago, but I didn't remember it.)

 

[Stella Brando]

Spoiler

 

[Caim]

Spoiler

Secret ending to New Vegas: Mr House goes to space because there's no government oversight there. Starfield is a stealth Fallout sequel.

 

[dreughjiggers]

I went ahead an timestamped the part where he walks with a clowns swagger, looks like a turd in an "nasapunk" suit, and his eyebrows add to his retarded surprised look in ways never intended for human facial expression.

what are you talking about? todd starts talking at 8:30.

also lol not a single white man in the game

 

[anvi]

That space ship looks like you can press a button and something awesome happens.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

> "The skills combine the best of our previous games"
Oh boy, I'm sure that means there's actual attributes and skills that allow for actual builds with different strengths and drawbacks like in Morrowind or FNV. Instead of a wishy-washy morass of perks that makes all builds feel the same in the end.
Right? Right?


> "You can land and explore every planet"
About 50 feet on each one, I would think. If every planet gives you a map the size, I dunno, Skyrim or even Morrowind it's going to be such a goddamn system and space hog. It'll most likely just be a fancier version of Genesis Alpha's exploration mechanic.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I went ahead an timestamped the part where he walks with a clowns swagger, looks like a turd in an "nasapunk" suit, and his eyebrows add to his retarded surprised look in ways never intended for human facial expression.

what are you talking about? todd starts talking at 8:30.

also lol not a single white man in the game

To be fair, there aren't any humans in it either.

 

[Gargaune]

> "You can land and explore every planet"
About 50 feet on each one, I would think. If every planet gives you a map the size, I dunno, Skyrim or even Morrowind it's going to be such a goddamn system and space hog. It'll most likely just be a fancier version of Genesis Alpha's exploration mechanic.

I don't think they'll give you Skyrim-sized planets, but that'll be for design reasons, since there won't be enough proc-gen content not to make them boring as sin and completionists will whine that they "have to" explore these empty spaces. But I don't think the technical solution would be a problem, from an engine perspective, the planets and the cosmos will act like their own outdoor cell spaces, just like Fallout 4 has the Commonwealth and Far Harbor, for example, and then each one of them will have its own accessible interior cells. And since the only AI that will have to be persistently processed in the background on most of these "over 1000" planets would only be whatever settlements you plop onto them, I think they'll manage. Not too sure on the storage space bit, but I don't think empty terrain is that big of a hog either, and presumably most of the encounters and stuff will be dynamically generated "Radiant Quest" material.

 

[Late Bloomer]

To be fair, there aren't any humans in it either.

But I don't think the technical solution would be a problem, from an engine perspective, the planets and the cosmos will act like their own outdoor cell spaces

I wonder how big the save file sizes will be of someone who has gone and "cleared" every planet? lol I can only imagine.

 

[Lemming42]

I can't get my head around the concept of this game, as I understand it. Bethesda can see from fan reaction to their games that nobody likes Radiant Quest bullshit, and everyone likes handcrafted stuff. Their solution to save their flagging reputation is to make a game heavily reliant on Radiant shit.

Procgen is such a bad idea. It worked for Daggerfall because the whole point of Daggerfall is indulging in the sheer scope of the world, but even in DF, you've realistically only got about 10 hours of gameplay before you've seen every generic guild/tavern quest and are essentially left with nothing to do. Paradoxically, despite it's scope, Daggerfall ends up having much less content than a vastly smaller but entirely handcrafted worldspace like Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim.

Don't get the appeal of the idea at all. "You can go anywhere!" isn't a selling point if you're not going to find anything worthwhile anywhere you go.

 

[Harthwain]

Don't get the appeal of the idea at all. "You can go anywhere!" isn't a selling point if you're not going to find anything worthwhile anywhere you go.

Wasn't that the reason behind the hype for No Man's Sky (until it crashed with the reality)?

 

[Lemming42]

Yeah, I think so. It's confusing to see it being brought up as a selling point for any game - we're surely long past the point where devs can go "look at this big (empty) worldspace!!" for hype. Todd said a long time ago that he was overwhelmed by TES: Arena when he playtested it because he was wowed by the fact you could go anywhere in this vast world and visit any city, even though the cities were all procgen'd and featured no original content. Definitely cool in a "wow, look what the technology can do" sort of way in 1994, but much less so in 2023.

 

[Harthwain]

Yeah, I think so. It's confusing to see it being brought up as a selling point for any game - we're surely long past the point where devs can go "look at this big (empty) worldspace!!" for hype. Todd said a long time ago that he was overwhelmed by TES: Arena when he playtested it because he was wowed by the fact you could go anywhere in this vast world and visit any city, even though the cities were all procgen'd and featured no original content. Definitely cool in a "wow, look what the technology can do" sort of way in 1994, but much less so in 2023.

True, but then again - I think this is exactly (or at least part of) the reason why open-world sandboxes are so popular. They appeal to the idea of being free to do whatever you want. The problem, as you yourself have noted, is making all that space meaningful. Morrowind is stronger than Daggerfall because it doesn't feel copy-pasted, so there is a strong sense of place there.

In my opinion procedural generation could work for open-world RPGs, but it needs to be very specific. Battle Brothers is a good example (although, admittedly it's more of a tactical game with RPG elements rather than a fully-fledged RPG). Stoneshard is taking this in an interesting direction: the world is generated on title-by-tile basis, if I am not mistaken, but the tiles themselves are the same, with enemies and loot being procedurally generated (except bosses, I think).

 

[Tyranicon]

Yeah, I think so. It's confusing to see it being brought up as a selling point for any game - we're surely long past the point where devs can go "look at this big (empty) worldspace!!" for hype. Todd said a long time ago that he was overwhelmed by TES: Arena when he playtested it because he was wowed by the fact you could go anywhere in this vast world and visit any city, even though the cities were all procgen'd and featured no original content. Definitely cool in a "wow, look what the technology can do" sort of way in 1994, but much less so in 2023.

True, but then again - I think this is exactly (or at least part of) the reason why open-world sandboxes are so popular. They appeal to the idea of being free to do whatever you want. The problem, as you yourself have noted, is making all that space meaningful. Morrowind is stronger than Daggerfall because it doesn't feel copy-pasted, so there is a strong sense of place there.

In my opinion procedural generation could work for open-world RPGs, but it needs to be very specific. Battle Brothers is a good example (although, admittedly it's more of a tactical game with RPG elements rather than a fully-fledged RPG). Stoneshard is taking this in an interesting direction: the world is generated on title-by-tile basis, if I am not mistaken, but the tiles themselves are the same, with enemies and loot being procedurally generated (except bosses, I think).

The problem with procgen is that games with it always feel it was generated by an uncaring, uninteresting algorithm. And with the rise of so-called "AIs" we'll soon see a whole new breed of radiant quests.

 

[anvi]

Bethesda games are just running around shooting stuff with guns or lightning anyway. There's no depth and nothing interesting to find in the worlds. So it kinda makes sense to duplicate the crap because people buy it anyway. Fallout 4 has over 12 million sales. Fallout 4 with copy paste planets with different textures seems like a sure hit. And space ship side game. PEw pew. This is gonna be the biggest selling game ever. Also it's Bethesda and people are raised to act like cultists.

 

[Harthwain]

The problem with procgen is that games with it always feel it was generated by an uncaring, uninteresting algorithm. And with the rise of so-called "AIs" we'll soon see a whole new breed of radiant quests.

True, but in my opinion this is more of a problem with designers not being very specific when it comes to how to allow procgen to work in the context of a game. In my experience using "blocks" to build up a larger "puzzle" tends to give a fairly good results (and is a good marriage between procedural generation and hand-crafted content. The rest, mainly the interactions, can be handled by the in-game systems), compared to "let's procgen everything!" approach.

 

[Gargaune]

I wonder how big the save file sizes will be of someone who has gone and "cleared" every planet? lol I can only imagine.

Wouldn't have a significant impact, you gotta remember that the Creation Engine has a cell reset timer, very little cell data is left persistently in your save file. For instance, Fallout 4 will perpetually remember the level you were when you first accessed a cell, this can affect stuff like what grade Power Armor spawns as loot, but encounters, object states etc. will get reset if you haven't visited a given cell in a certain amount of time. The only exception to this is player settlements, whose states are saved in perpetuity, but I'm pretty sure those will be limited to one per planet.

 

[Old Hans]

I wonder how big the save file sizes will be of someone who has gone and "cleared" every planet? lol I can only imagine.

im gonna guess over 500 terabytes. you guys can quote me on this

 

[gurugeorge]

I wonder how big the save file sizes will be of someone who has gone and "cleared" every planet? lol I can only imagine.

Wouldn't have a significant impact, you gotta remember that the Creation Engine has a cell reset timer, very little cell data is left persistently in your save file. For instance, Fallout 4 will perpetually remember the level you were when you first accessed a cell, this can affect stuff like what grade Power Armor spawns as loot, but encounters, object states etc. will get reset if you haven't visited a given cell in a certain amount of time. The only exception to this is player settlements, whose states are saved in perpetuity, but I'm pretty sure those will be limited to one per planet.

Ah! So is that's the trick! So (from my amateur non-programmer's point of view) effectively what's going on is that the game only has to always-remember your level, gear and quest stage progression, and meanwhile every "cell" in the world is a self-contained thing with its own routines that only "activate" when you enter it, and once you exit that cell "what went on" in that cell (the things you did, the interactions that are not directly quest-related) is only remembered for a relatively short time then re-set?

So basically you're travelling around with a "halo" of remembered cell states around you (of your recent movements), and everything else is just a set of routines waiting to be activated?

You are very clever, you Earthlings

 

[Late Bloomer]

meanwhile every "cell" in the world is a self-contained thing with its own routines that only "activate" when you enter it, and once you exit that cell "what went on" in that cell (the things you did, the interactions that are not directly quest-related) are only remembered for a relatively short time then re-set?

The largest contributor (other than settlements as Gargaune noted) to save file size is location discovery, then quest progression. If you were to clear every location and do every quest, build no settlements ever, and keep playing, the save file size would keep growing just not in such large chunks as when you were discovering locations and completeting quests.

The idea of 1000 planets with points of discovery is an interesting issue though. I am imagining they figured out something to combat the ever increasing save file size for a game as large in scale as they are touting Starfield to be. Mods of course add to the save file size too depending on the mod.

It's not quite the issue I am making it out to be. But it has been an issue mostly for consoles in the past. Starting Fallout 4 save file (individual saves) is around 4.5 MB. If you were to do a full playthrough you could end up with an individual save file size of around 30 MB. Much large than just about any other game that does local save file saves.

 

[Gargaune]

Ah! So is that's the trick! So (from my amateur non-programmer's point of view) effectively what's going on is that the game only has to always-remember your level, gear and quest stage progression, and meanwhile every "cell" in the world is a self-contained thing with its own routines that only "activate" when you enter it, and once you exit that cell "what went on" in that cell (the things you did, the interactions that are not directly quest-related) is only remembered for a relatively short time then re-set?

So basically you're travelling around with a "halo" of remembered cell states around you (of your recent movements), and everything else is just a set of routines waiting to be activated?

You are very clever, you Earthlings

Sort of, that's a simplified way of putting it but you have to gist of it. The world, the "levels" in the Creation Engine are split into cells, interior and exterior alike, and the game has different loading states for them, it will actually load a cluster of cells around your present location to process at its highest state. If you kill enemies or move clutter around, stuff like that, the engine will store all those deltas into your save file along with the cell's visit timestamp and keep that data within the limits of its buffer, whatever that is. The persistence isn't in a geographical halo, but literally everywhere you go within the buffer and time limits.

Whatever else you can say about them, Bethesda has this routine down to a fine art, both in terms of object hierarchies and the buffer limitations. Take Fallout 4, if you shoot some bad guys over in Lexington then fast travel all the way to Quincy and come right back, you'll find everything how you left it. But if you go on a tour down around Diamond City and downtown Boston and come back a few days later, the cell will have reset to its default state. Everything is properly serialised for saving and all the expiration dates make decent sense contextualised in the moment-to-moment narrative, Bethesda know when it's "okay" to discard your impact because you've moved on.

Now consider Cyberpunk 2077 as a counterexample. For instance, I shot two dudes in the Columbarium (?) and decided to throw their corpses down the hill outside, but when I came back for the second one, he was already gone because the space had immediately reset upon leaving it. On the other hand, in another quest I tazed the chick that was stalking Blue Moon, but even after 50 hours of gameplay she's still writhing on that bridge where I left her. Red Engine just hasn't been developed for this sort of open world persistence and can't support that kind of experience, it's got very little "memory" and is almost entirely reliant on runtime generation. Which is also reflected in the saves, its pissant 8 MB files with their blistering 5-second loads versus Fo4's 20-30 MB ones.

It's not quite the issue I am making it out to be. But it has been an issue mostly for consoles in the past. Starting Fallout 4 save file (individual saves) is around 4.5 MB. If you were to do a full playthrough you could end up with an individual save file size of around 30 MB. Much large than just about any other game that does local save file saves.

Personally, I'm not too worried about that, literal decades of playing at this game means that what Bethesda do well, they do very well, and their world state management is some of the best in the business. My gripe with Todd Inc. is that they're too comfortable with what they've traditionally not done well, stuff like writing and interfaces. I'll bet you a dancing donut that you still won't be able to crouch your way under a Starfield staircase.

I am curious though, what do you mean about "location discovery" that balloons the save file, what data goes into that?

 

[Late Bloomer]

I am curious though, what do you mean about "location discovery" that balloons the save file, what data goes into that?

As for what data is going in the save files regarding discovery locations I cannot say. But I do know, that it only applies to locations you discover. The save file size has no effect if you use the console command "tmm 1". That command shows every location on your map but you can't fast travel to them. It is only once you actually discover the location that it gets permanently baked into the save file.

I have a save file that is sitting at 5.5 MB It is a new save that has the early Red Rocket discovered, the main quest in Concord completed (all interiors explored/looted) and Sanctuary mostly in its default state except for the fact the Minutemen are moved in.

From here on out as a test I didnt engage in combat or loot anything

Robotics Disposal Ground (small area near Sanctuary) 5.52 MB
USAF Satellite Station Oliva (smallish area with raiders and some makeshift structures) 5:60 MB
Bedford Station (smallish area with some old trains and feral ghouls) 5:73 MB
Lexington (huge area, many interiors, doesnt include Corvega) 6.11 MB

Once those are discovered, able to be fast travled to, without touching the area, that information and therefore the save file size will not flucuate below 6.11 MB.

If i were to go into the Satellite Station for instance, clear it out, the save file would grow a bit. If I were to then sleep for 7 days or however long it takes for that to reset, the save file would then shrink a bit, resetting most things (except quest related things like the magazine, ack-ack the raider leader etc) Things like the magazine and boss information (however small) then get baked into the save file.

I will reiterate I am sperging out over what amounts to a non-issue in most cases. But it is still a point of curiosity for me. The way some people (myself included) play Elder Scrolls and Bethesda Fallout games can be extraordinarily thorough. There will be people wanting to explore all 1000 planets. I am mostly curious how they will pull it off. Maybe the planets are mostly lifeless with just a few discoverable locations of note per planet?

Reading your information posted in reponse to gurugeorge was super interesting and enjoyable. So thanks for sharing that.

 

[gurugeorge]

Whatever else you can say about them, Bethesda has this routine down to a fine art,

Oh yes, I mean I've heard people pissing and moaning about the Creation Engine since forever, but it's always seemed to me to be a pretty wondrous thing. I can't really think of any other developers that do what Bethesda does as well as them, in terms of quite sizeable open worlds you can just potter about in, that still feel "real" (like things are going about their business while you're absent).

And I should imagine they have developed a growing "institutional memory" for it since Daggerfall.

Thanks for the extra explanation!