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Stellaris - Paradox new sci-fi grand strategy game

Xamenos

Magister
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Pathfinder: Wrath
Same multiplayer talk as main franchises, what's the percentage of people who even play multiplayer, isn't it super low? Why build your games around it.
I think I remember Johan admitting the % of the people who've played multi even once is in the single digits, but I can't be arsed to look for it. The number certainly sounds about right. As for why, MadMaxHellfire is absolutely right. No need to have a good AI when you're assuming your players will be playing only against other humans. And no need to have content and interesting mechanics when you assume they'll larp together and make things interesting for each other.

Don't forget the console editions which I still believe they're some sort of joke.
The SJW corruption of the company may have something to do with its decaying performance and lack of manpower.
Nice bogeyman, but I'm not convinced. SJW corruption is a symptom of upper management who have no idea what they're doing, not the cause. I blame the relentless pursuit for endless growth that happens with every publicly traded corporation. Paradox is simply doing what they think will maximize their profit while minimizing their costs.
 
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from the next dlc stellaris needs -a more fluid diplomacy, envoys are retarded, each one basically can turn anyone into an ally. anyone. of course not the -2000 people, but other than them, anyone, and it's idiotic.
-meaningful espionage, it has to be powerful, if well fueled i must be capable of make riots erupt everywhere in a whole empire, but considered how everything gets neutered and watered down in the name of multiplayer balance i have no hope in this at all. crime is a joke, a 100% crime planet only produces a little less while it should produce exactly 0 and be constantly rioting. hell, look at seattle and the 13% mostly peaceful protesters.
-internal affairs. i can't ask for ck degree of it but something can and should be done to shake the wait. maybe it's mods related but i had some leaders get called in duels at random or on being insulted. not much but it's something.

also a more interesting ground combat could help, and there are already mods to make space combat less predictable. a shame that both had great mods but they've been abandoned. i miss also planetary defenses in the form of system ships and ground cannons. there are the "at war" mods but they've been recently abandoned too.
 

thesecret1

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CKIII has heavier reqs than both Stellaris and HOI 4, but it runs like a dream in comparison (althrough the temps do get a bit high in my comp and the game looks butt-ugly because I lack a dedicated card).
I don't remember EUIV having performance issues the last time I played it. Been a while tho.
Crusader Kings and Europa Universalis are Paradox's flagship titles, so of course they have all the manpower and resources they need. That's not the case for a game past its zenith like Stellaris though – there are many things hinting at it, but the fairly underwhelming DLCs are the biggest give away. Compare a flagship expansions that CK2 got, for example – you could see each one bringing something substantial to the table, something that really changed the game. But can anyone say that, for example, Lithoids really changed anything? I know the phase of development the lead of Stellaris is in – it's the phase where he needs to add content in order to draw in players again, yet doesn't have the resources to actually do that. So he starts thinking of how to make the most content and the smallest cost, and comes up with reskins and the like. Just throw in new species – it takes a bit of art, but not much, some code, but again, not much (plus, it'll be fairly modular, so no need to go deep into old code), and that's it – content is ready. It being zombies is just a marketing move since a lot of people will get drawn in with something this marketable (more than lithoids at least), and the saved time can be spent to fix bugs and tinker with balance.
 
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re: performance, the game performed decently in its 1.0 version. But since then they've gone from a cap of ~16 pops per planet to 100s. They've added buildable colonies like habitats and ringworlds. And they've done next to nothing to improve performance. It's clear they did the minimum effort to make 1.0 perform well enough but then just kept adding shit. Everything added has been intentional, Paradox has deliberately decided to worsen performance. It boggles the mind why have every building taking 2 pops when you could make it 1 and just cut all pop calculations in half.

crime is a joke, a 100% crime planet only produces a little less while it should produce exactly 0 and be constantly rioting. hell, look at seattle and the 13% mostly peaceful protesters.

Actually its better to run with 100% crime and not employ the policeman jobs. You take the "deal with a crime lord" decision for +10 permanent stability and it stops almost all bad events.
 
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25 pops per planet.
and it was so damn satisfying to find the perfect 25 barren planet, just two of your race, one for the capital and one for the slavers/robot builders, the rest slaves/robots on mines and all the adiacency boni you could exploit.
but they couldn't keep the computer from shuffling them around, giving a timer to it was teh hard, so we have now this new system which under several aspects is more powerful and detailed, even sleeker, if only the computer would stop shuffling jobs around.
even if not solutions, workarounds are just behind the corner. maybe swedes are too culturally enriched to notice.
 

The_Mask

Just like Yves, I chase tales.
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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
If we're at the point where we're bitching about Stellaris, I have my own gripe: the fact that you cannot customize your first ruler/head of state/guy or gal in charge. It feels like a serious oversight to me, especially for people that choose the traits that extend life. With the right traits you can have a LOT of fun, and I can't believe it went over their heads to make, at least, our first face we see in the game customizable.
 
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thesecret1

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So I researched technology to improve bureaucracy buildings to tier 3... and wasn't able to. So I look into the game files to see what's up, and find paradox disabled in on purpose, just by adding condition that it should never be available, but leaving the refference to it in research and all (so you end up constantly wondering where the fuck is your tier 3 upgrade, try building it on your capital planet, etc.). Probably done for balance reasons, but Tier 2 bureaucracy building is powerful enough to completely negate empire sprawl anyway, so all it does is this inconsistency where everything has 3 tiers except this, and waste a couple build slots. Googling it, the issue's been there since spring at least, with apparently misinformed community managers promising people the bug will be fixed soon (while the actual file lists a comment saying that it's disabled intentionally).

This is how Paradox "balances" a game.
:deathclaw:
 
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for the love of God someone add auto swapping of scientists between jobs

Same. I like having a good research corps of specialists, but its annoying when I have to take scientists from one thing to another and do extra clicks for things that seem so redudant. I don't need to choose a scientist that's just there boosting research.
 
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Dev Diary 190: Leading Economic Indicators

Hi everyone!


Way back in Dev Diary 152, we discussed some planetary changes that we experimented with during summer 2019. At the time, we decided that while we learned a lot from the experiment, they required significant additional refinement before being something we wanted to incorporate into Stellaris.


Summer 2020 gave us the additional time we needed to revive these (and some other) experiments. Our primary objectives were to reduce the mid to late game micromanagement burden and provide quality of life improvements, including generally making the prebuilding of planets more viable, making planetary automation reliable enough to be trusted in the mid to late game, and making dealing with unemployment and pops easier.


We’ll be talking about these subjects in multiple dev diaries over the next couple of months.


Industrial Districts


1604505399088.png


Azure Chalice is… er, was... a lovely place.


The planet view has shifted things around a bit and now supports the display of up to six district types. Most planets will have five district types available. This extra real estate could also be of special interest to modders.


The new brownish-orange district next to the City District is the revived Industrial District. Industrial Districts are treated as urban districts (and as such are not limited by planetary features), but rather than the Laborers that split their output from the original experiment, we’ve decided to have the districts provide regular empires one Artisan and one Metallurgist job. Gestalts have either two Foundry Drones or Fabricators as appropriate.


1604505417971.png


Work, work, work.


Factories and Foundries will still exist but are now planet unique, with the first tier building adding 2 jobs to the planet just like the old versions. The upgraded versions, however, will now add either 1 or 2 jobs of the appropriate type to each Industrial District on the planet.


Ecumenopoli will retain their specialized districts, but can be boosted by the Foundry or Factory buildings. The number of jobs per district on ecumenopoli have been adjusted somewhat as part of an overall economic balance pass. Since Industrial Districts are considered urban, a planet with a mix of City and Industrial Districts can be paved over and turned into an Ecumenopolis using the Arcology Project decision.


Since districts are now much more critical to the development of your civilization, the average size of homeworlds has been increased by 2, and as an additional side effect, the Mastery of Nature Ascension Perk may also become a bit more desirable.


Building Slots


I’m sure you’ve already noticed from the above screenshot, Building Slots no longer list population counts. Instead of relying on population, they're opened up by increasing the infrastructure of the planet. This is generally done by building City Districts (or their equivalent) or by upgrading the colony's Capital building. As a pleasant side effect of this, your buildings will no longer get ruined when a pop gets resettled, ritually killed, or eaten by mutants.

1604505441635.png
1604505453173.png


Build up that infrastructure.


Two new technologies that unlock additional Building Slots have also been added, Ceramo-Metal Infrastructure and Durasteel Infrastructure. They represent the civilian adoption of military technology, and as such require some government techs and the associated armor technologies. The Adaptability tradition tree, for those that have it, still has a tech that grants a Building Slot as well.


As specialized and advanced worlds, Ecumenopoli, Ring Worlds, Hive Worlds, and Machine Worlds start with all of their building slots unlocked.


Habitats are intended to feel a bit cramped, so while Habitation Modules do not open up Building Slots, the Voidborne Ascension Perk will continue to grant two Building Slots to those that choose to embrace living in space.


The MegaCorps out there may ask “but what about our Branch Offices?” - we’ve got you covered.


1604505470316.png


Insider Trading. Institutionalized corruption exploited by the upper classes, or just greasing the wheels of trade?


Branch Offices will tie their slots to the level of the colony’s capital building. For example, a Planetary Administration building will grant one Branch Office Building Slot, a Planetary Capital will grant two, and a System Capital-Complex would grant three. If the target empire has the Insider Trading tradition, you’ll have one extra Branch Office Building Slot. (This may grant you a Branch Office building even on newly colonized worlds, if your business plan expects it to be profitable.)


But Why?


By decoupling the building unlocks from population growth, it makes it much easier to “prebuild” a planet to varying degrees. It removes some of the tedium of waiting for that last pop to finish growing before a slot unlocks, as well as the negative experience that occurred when a critical pop moved or died right at the wrong time. This change went through many iterations - in one of them the rural and industrial districts added "fractional" slots, in another the capital buildings gave more slots at each upgrade. The combination of having both City Districts and the Capital Building contributing to the slots, along with the additional techs, finally felt right. It's nice when even a newly founded Colony possesses at least one open building slot since it lets you immediately begin construction of a Spawning Pool or other high value building right away.


Moving the essential secondary resources of Consumer Goods and Alloys to districts frees up the building slots a little bit and creates a greater differentiation between heavily urbanized or industrial planets and resource generating colonies. Qualitatively we also felt that it "feels nice" to be getting more of your physical resources from the district level, leaving the Building Slots for more unique and specialized needs.


Both of these changes also happen to make some planetary automation decisions a little easier - your Tech Worlds should clearly build a mix of City and Industrial districts, for instance, to make room for Research Labs as well as to provide the Consumer Goods needed to pay for them. We do recognize that it may be difficult - or even impossible - to unlock all Building Slots on a planet that has not been urbanized, but those resource generating planets often do not have quite as strong a need for a large number of buildings.


Ideally in the mid to late game you could colonize a planet, set the colony designation you want for the planet, turn on automation, and reasonably expect the planet to be in decent shape - and doing what you told it to - the next time you look at it. (In the early game it's certainly possible, but your empire's economy may not be stable enough to support dedicated worlds and your colonies may be better off with direct caretaking.)


We have a few other experiments that are still ongoing that affect the relationship between urbanized vs. less developed planets that are not entirely conclusive yet. If they prove out we'll discuss them later on in this series of diaries. Our current plan for next week's diary is to talk more about the automated colony management overhaul as well as the automatic and manual resettlement of pops.


As a reminder, we have an ongoing feedback thread related to AI improvements we have in beta on the stellaris_test branch. We'd love to get more people on it and telling us what they think about them. (Please note that 2.8.1 is an optional beta patch. You have to manually opt in to access it. Go to your Steam library, right click on Stellaris -> Properties -> betas tab -> select "stellaris_test" branch.)


Thanks!
 
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So what you guys think?

Personally I think Industrial Districts are incline, because no more Factory Spam, but having a District that produces two resources is kind of "against the rules" and simplifies industry too much. Their solution to addressing the issue of "what if I want to specialize" is "use policies/mess with pop priorization" and that is less than optimal to me. There's also the fact Consumer Goods are borderline useless, while Alloys are ultra-vital. Also, this is kind of a boost to Collectives.

I think it would be better to have two types of Industry district: Heavy Industry for Alloys and Light Industry for CGs. The idea would be to take a cue from HOI 4 and have Civilian and Military Industry be separate. Its far more elegant and fits with the One District Type = One Type of Resource rule. I think its also more realistic and has examples in history - a good example is how the Soviet Union had powerful Heavy Industry but their Light Industry was far inferior to that of the West.

Special buildings giving more jobs is a bit weird. Not sure if incline or decline. It does seem to help specialization of worlds. It might be incline because at some you just run out of Residential Space that doesn't eat into your specialty - sure having some extra districts doing something else is great early on, but eventually those get phased out for a mono-focus. If these buildings increase pop housing then that's good and could lead to even more powerful resource extraction worlds, perhaps boosting normal planets compared to turning everything into Ecumenopolis - which would make World Shaper more interesting.

Not entirely sold on the building slots decrease. I like having some slot margin to build a well-rounded planet and so a few extra things that are not the planet's specialty.

Building slots no longer being dependent on popullation number is massive incline. No longer will I have to wait for people to fill up in order to build something I want. Also pre-building hell yeah.

I wonder how these changes will affect Performance. Seems like they would tend to help it.
 
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dude, alphamod: it already has the industrial districts, also a planetary edict to tell them if they have to specialize in either production.
 

Joggerino

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I like these changes, it was pretty hard to specialize for alloys before mid-late game.
 

thesecret1

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So what you guys think?
Sounds like casualization of the system, probably to make the AI cope with it better, to be honest. It's a lot easier to code "if (alloys < LOW_ALLOYS_TRESHOLD) BuildIndustryDistrict()" than to write planet specialization that works as it should. On the other hand, it's a step away from micro and towards macro, which is good.
 

thesecret1

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I think the casualization would be lessened if CGs and Alloys were not produced in the same district. Feels like immense popamole to me. Butter and Guns always competed.
It makes me wonder whether it won't make CGs obsolete. Much like food is: "Oh, I am low on food? Okay, let's build ten food districts on some planets or resettle a couple pops... done."

I do wonder how they will deal with the whole Volatile Motes thing. Used be, you had pretty limited alloys until Alloy Mega-Forges became a thing. Perhaps Alloy and CG factories building will now work like Mining Processors and such (boost number of pop jobs), and stuff like Mega-Forges will be upgrades that require resources?
Yeah, the special resources seem like they'll need a rework to cope with this, since alloys and CGs were their main uses.

Overall it feels like Paradox is again trying to rework a major system (and for buildings that'll be what, the fourth time?) because they either cannot figure out how to balance it or how to make the AI utilize it at least somewhat intelligently. That's not to mention their new take on empire sprawl sucks dick and will need to be redone as well – it's trivial to keep within limits of your administration, just make a dedicated bureaucracy planet or two, and you can have a massive empire that researches everything three times faster than the AI. I expect them to, sooner or later, do away with the entire buildings bit, maybe leave like 4 slots open for super special stuff, and just handle everything with districts. AI will be less shitty (because it'll have less possibilities to fuck itself), the game will get rid of most of its micro... and then management will come like "What the fuck guys, now there's nothing to do in the game, figure out something for players to do while not at war!" and the cycle will begin anew.
 

thesecret1

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Also I've tried the new "Origins" thing they have, and it's hilariously broken. I chose to start on a shattered ringworld because it sounded like a cool concept – "You are hopelessly low tech on a ridiculously high tech space structure, you have no way to repair it, nor resources to effectively use it". Turns out it's basically god mode, since they give you a planet feature on it that gives you free upkeep for one district per type, and having and fully staffing a single research district on a ringworld means you never have to build a single lab ever again.
 
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Also I've tried the new "Origins" thing they have, and it's hilariously broken. I chose to start on a shattered ringworld because it sounded like a cool concept – "You are hopelessly low tech on a ridiculously high tech space structure, you have no way to repair it, nor resources to effectively use it". Turns out it's basically god mode, since they give you a planet feature on it that gives you free upkeep for one district per type, and having and fully staffing a single research district on a ringworld means you never have to build a single lab ever again.

The Habitat one is actually even more OP. You similarly start with up to a dozen free research jobs but get vastly quicker pop growth since you have 3 starting habitats and can build more immediately. And you can still settle planets anyway with no growth penalty as soon as you get a migration treaty with anyone in the galaxy.

Overall it feels like Paradox is again trying to rework a major system (and for buildings that'll be what, the fourth time?) because they either cannot figure out how to balance it or how to make the AI utilize it at least somewhat intelligently. That's not to mention their new take on empire sprawl sucks dick and will need to be redone as well – it's trivial to keep within limits of your administration, just make a dedicated bureaucracy planet or two, and you can have a massive empire that researches everything three times faster than the AI. I expect them to, sooner or later, do away with the entire buildings bit, maybe leave like 4 slots open for super special stuff, and just handle everything with districts. AI will be less shitty (because it'll have less possibilities to fuck itself), the game will get rid of most of its micro... and then management will come like "What the fuck guys, now there's nothing to do in the game, figure out something for players to do while not at war!" and the cycle will begin anew.

Definitely agree. Feels like the building system was too complex for the AI so they are moving more to districts since you can more easily just program "If I need more alloys, find the resource I have most of, replace one of those districts with an alloy district. AFAIK AI in Stellaris is basically incapable of replacing buildings, so whatever it builds once it will keep forever. For players its nothing but change for change's sake. There's probably a mod that already does this.
 

Norfleet

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I think it would be better to have two types of Industry district: Heavy Industry for Alloys and Light Industry for CGs. The idea would be to take a cue from HOI 4 and have Civilian and Military Industry be separate. Its far more elegant and fits with the One District Type = One Type of Resource rule. I think its also more realistic and has examples in history - a good example is how the Soviet Union had powerful Heavy Industry but their Light Industry was far inferior to that of the West.
Isn't that basically just the status quo of vanilla, though? This is how the vanilla game already works, so why would this need to be a mod?
 

Xamenos

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Also I've tried the new "Origins" thing they have, and it's hilariously broken. I chose to start on a shattered ringworld because it sounded like a cool concept – "You are hopelessly low tech on a ridiculously high tech space structure, you have no way to repair it, nor resources to effectively use it". Turns out it's basically god mode, since they give you a planet feature on it that gives you free upkeep for one district per type, and having and fully staffing a single research district on a ringworld means you never have to build a single lab ever again.
You should try the "Scion" origin at some point too. Your Fallen Empire master can just hand you a small fleet of theirs (it's completely random), and if that happens early you can conquer everyone in the galaxy.

And remarkably, the fourth powerful origin is the humble Prosperous Unification. In addition to the extra starting pops and districts, it also gives an unmentioned +20% production bonus on the capital. All other origins are, of course, garbage in comparison.
 

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