Decline Sword Coast Legends Pre-Release Thread

[Black_Willow]

WTF is this console scrolley shit, where's my classic inventory?

Here, have some classic inventory:

 

[imweasel]

I'm pretty sure he meant a good classic inventory, like in the BG Series, and not a shitty one.

 

[Lilura]

NWN has the best inventory and UI. Clean look, easily readable panels, all the info you need, drag n drop, radial menu and quickbar.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

This stuff about fudging the rolls is fucking retarded. Sure some DMs do that but they do it in fucking secret. Because if the players realized that DM will not kill them no matter what they'd lose any interest in the game and actually be disappointed. For example when I'm DM-ing I make every roll in the open and inform people what the target level is to make sure that they know that I'm not making shit up. Altering encounters mid-battle to in order to change the outcome when it doesn't suit me would turn it into a farce. Also total party kill is not that often since smart players will flee if the situation demands it.

I mean if you want to make the battles dramatic without mechanics getting in your way or PCs dying just play some story-oriented system or just ditch any system. If you want to play the game normally but don't kill the PCs then don't fucking kill them ever and inform them about it instead of trying to cheat them. Make monsters capture them, rob them and leave them on the ground etc. Ultima's had PCs being ressurected by Lord Biriths every time the party died. There is no reason to not do it in a PnP campaign.

 

[Bubbles]

Also total party kill is not that often since smart players will flee if the situation demands it.

That assumes that you can flee battles in SCL.

 

[Grunker]

Anyway, in general I think the first question should be

No, it shouldn't. The first question should be "when core mechanics deviate this hilariously much, is there anything at all that should cause us to believe this is an actual D&D game"?

Your post is bordering on being apologetic. Look, I'm sure you can make a great game where creatures have 3,300 hit points at those levels, but it's got nothing to do with D&D, and the topic I was commenting on is "will this be an actual 5E game or is it 5E in name and iconography only?"

Rules are fundamentally the arbitrary judge in games like physics are in real life. If I play in a game and a GM "fudges" a roll, it's basically the same as that GM changing the rules to go easy on me or alternative change the rules because I did too well. It's like switching from Hard to Easy because I can't handle it, or vice versa. We agreed that the world works in such-and-such a way, but suddenly the world works differently because it's more convenient? Fudged rolls are to rule-heavy P&P what deus ex machina are to literature.

A GM "fudging" a roll is like an invisible hand or awesome button gently guiding me through a video game.

Rules are the one thing in P&P that needs 100% clarity and adherence from both players and GM, otherwise what's the point in simulating the experience at all? You can change the rules of course, edit them however you'd like, even play games with no rules at all, if it's just about story and player interaction with that. But if you agree to adhere to a common structure, deviating from it because "it'd make for a better story" or somesuch convenience is the number one destroyer of any immersion for me.

The key aspect of P&P is player interaction with a GM construct. If the rules are not set in stone once agreed upon, then the player interaction is nullified. GM manipulation with rules is negation of player influence.

(If everyone in the group agrees to throw that influence to the wind and prioritize convenience over the simulation, then fair enough - you should do whatever works for you. This does not change the objective fact that manipulation is negation, though, and you need to be aware of that. For my part I would not enjoy playing in such a game.)

Sounds almost simulationist...

It's the exact opposite. The simulationist argument would be to change a rules on a whim if it interferes with perceived realism or setting consistensy. In fact, my post points out the fallacy of ultra-simulationism: consistensy of simulation is achieved much better by adherence to structure and internal rules than by everyone's personal definition of "realism." How can you take seriously the rules of game if they can be changed on a whim? Which quote-unquote "gamist" argument can you think of that allows the game rules to be so flexible that they must submit to all other considerations?

I love simulation. It's why I play P&P. I just don't think the coined "simulationist" school of thought has much merit.

The bad side tends to be 'I know more about this than you, so I should be able to do what I want/this is shit.'

Well, there's nothing in this world, least of all P&P rules, that is immune to childishness and narcicism. I don't contest that strict rules adherence is bad if you're dealing with people who are not responsible adults, or at least have a GM who can detect and negate that sort of thing. I get your point, I just haven't had to deal with anything like that since I was a teenager.

WTF is this console scrolley shit, where's my classic inventory?

You were expecting something "classic" from this title?

 

[Grunker]

NWN has the best inventory and UI.

you are the gift that keeps on giving

 

[Necroscope]

NWN has the best inventory and UI.

you are the gift that keeps on giving

Except he's right. Say what you want about NWN, but the interface was pretty great.

 

[Grunker]

NWN has the best inventory and UI.

you are the gift that keeps on giving

Except he's right. Say what you want about NWN, but the interface was pretty great.

Oh yes, I still remember the grandieur of that phenomenal hotbar... or how NWN heralded the modern inventory: stringy design in small boxes utilizing about a sixth of the actual screen space available. Or how it started the whole Radial Menu trend of menus within menus within menus with naught but shitty, similar icons to identify the difference between them.

It was better than NWN2 UI, I'll grant you that much.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Fuck radial menus. Fuck them so fucking hard. The rest of NWN's UI is serviceable, but I will never understand how anyone can not outright loathe radial menus, much less like them.

 

[Grunker]

The best radial menus we've had were probably ToEE's, and even they sucked pretty bad. I can't recall for certain, but I believe some of NWN's radial menus even had you drag your mouse to use them *shudder*

NWN's cluttered clusterfuck of a UI was the result of someone trying to pile a single-player hardcore RPG, an MMO and an action-RPG into the same design space.

 

[Lhynn]

Radial menus were for those that couldnt into the hotbar, which was perfectly usable. you had shift and ctrl bars for extra flexibility if you needed it.

I wouldnt call an action bar something "MMOish" in nature, and i really wouldnt call any of its other elements as something coming from MMOs. Not that theres anything wrong with MMO mechanics in general, with some specific MMOs yes, but WOW isnt every MMO ever (it just seems like that sometimes).

 

[NotAGolfer]

Rules are fundamentally the arbitrary judge in games like physics are in real life. If I play in a game and a GM "fudges" a roll, it's basically the same as that GM changing the rules to go easy on me or alternative change the rules because I did too well. It's like switching from Hard to Easy because I can't handle it, or vice versa. We agreed that the world works in such-and-such a way, but suddenly the world works differently because it's more convenient? Fudged rolls are to rule-heavy P&P what deus ex machina are to literature.

A GM "fudging" a roll is like an invisible hand or awesome button gently guiding me through a video game.

Rules are the one thing in P&P that needs 100% clarity and adherence from both players and GM, otherwise what's the point in simulating the experience at all? You can change the rules of course, edit them however you'd like, even play games with no rules at all, if it's just about story and player interaction with that. But if you agree to adhere to a common structure, deviating from it because "it'd make for a better story" or somesuch convenience is the number one destroyer of any immersion for me.

The key aspect of P&P is player interaction with a GM construct. If the rules are not set in stone once agreed upon, then the player interaction is nullified. GM manipulation with rules is negation of player influence.

(If everyone in the group agrees to throw that influence to the wind and prioritize convenience over the simulation, then fair enough - you should do whatever works for you. This does not change the objective fact that manipulation is negation, though, and you need to be aware of that. For my part I would not enjoy playing in such a game.)

So PnP not only has levelscaled content (level x adventure in huge letters on the title) too but even GMs scale to your level?
Seems PnP is even more popamole than CRPGs even after the decline.

 

[Lilura]

Or how it started the whole Radial Menu trend of menus within menus within menus with naught but shitty, similar icons to identify the difference between them.

People with eyes and the ability to read will clearly see the names beside the icons, though...

 

[Grunker]

Floating text? My God! They revolutionized UI-design!

Just seeing that craptastic thing again makes me wonder how anyone could appreciate it in earnest. It is not only one of the least aesthetically pleasing UI's I've seen, it also started a downwards spiral away from utilizing screen space and towards representation with tiny icons and floaty design.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

The Codex may have written SCL off, but the true fans on their forums are gearing up for some serious roleplaying

I am a paladin player. I always roll one named Aric, human. Kal is my paladin from Baldurs Gate saga. This time I will pick another name and roll a half-elf paladin. He will be the son of Kal and Aerie, her mother putted him in a magic slumber after Kal and her leave the Realms when he was barely 18 and now he wakes centuries later ready for SCL.
Based on the feedback i had here, I will roll a half-elf now since they make so great paladins too and it will be a nice way to connect both plots in my personal story.

 

[Grunker]

So PnP not only has levelscaled content (level x adventure in huge letters on the title) too but even GMs scale to your level?
Seems PnP is even more popamole than CRPGs even after the decline.

I'm not sure if the poke was aimied at me, but I'm a bit confused if it is... what I'm talking about is essentially the opposite of a GM scaling the circumstances depending on the players and the random factor?

 

[Lhynn]

Grunker
Its good, pretty intuitive, of fast access and that doesnt get in the way. And its not the first time something good, starts decline. Happened with diablo 1, with BGII, with NWN, etc.

 

[Grunker]

The Codex may have written SCL off, but the true fans on their forums are gearing up for some serious roleplaying

O_o

Now that's how I remember the best thread ever...

Lhynn: as I have iterated many times in this thread, I very much lament the fact that it seems we have gotten a slew of posters who consider anything connected with NWN 'good'. I played two mods I liked, and I had a decent time with HotU. That Witch's Wake looked a bit promising. All succeded very much in spite of the crud that NWN was. So suffice it to say, I'm probably not going to agree on any sentiment that speaks positively of NWN.

The 3E implementation was praiseworthy, I suppose, and I can't speak to persistent worlds... but that's about it.

 

[Necroscope]

stringy design in small boxes utilizing about a sixth of the actual screen space available.

I spent years on various persistent worlds, usually carrying tons of junk in my backpack, and never considered the inventory window too small. It actually felt optimal; you could easily manage it while playing and having other elements of the UI around.

Also, The icons were pretty easy to recognize and distinguish.

I get that one may not like stringy design, because that's exactly how I feal about overstylized menus.

 

[Trodat]

http://www.pcgamesn.com/sword-coast...-gate-with-the-director-of-dragon-age-origins

“We’re going to allow DMs to spend a lot of time building campaigns that are near limitless if that’s what they want to do,” said Tudge. “But I’ve got twin eight-year-old boys and I want them to be able to create campaigns, that’s my litmus test. If they can do it, then we’ve succeeded.”

 

[Murk]

Oh god, that quote made me vomit in my mouth.

Fucking he even mentions Aerie. That's verging on high-level trolling.

 

[Grunker]

Necroscope: I grant that inventory management was functional, that's a fair assertion. But you're also confirming my point. That the inventory management was tiny was a concession made for the multiplayer. It had no purpose in singleplayer. NWN stood on so many legs it couldn't walk.

 

[Lilura]

The Codex may have written SCL off, but the true fans on their forums are gearing up for some serious roleplaying

I am a paladin player. I always roll one named Aric, human. Kal is my paladin from Baldurs Gate saga. This time I will pick another name and roll a half-elf paladin. He will be the son of Kal and Aerie, her mother putted him in a magic slumber after Kal and her leave the Realms when he was barely 18 and now he wakes centuries later ready for SCL.
Based on the feedback i had here, I will roll a half-elf now since they make so great paladins too and it will be a nice way to connect both plots in my personal story.

You made my day, thank you!

 

[NotAGolfer]

So PnP not only has levelscaled content (level x adventure in huge letters on the title) too but even GMs scale to your level?
Seems PnP is even more popamole than CRPGs even after the decline.

I'm not sure if the poke was aimied at me, but I'm a bit confused if it is... what I'm talking about is essentially the opposite of a GM scaling the circumstances depending on the players and the random factor?

No, wasn't aimed at you. Just assumed that if you guys feel the need to discuss this GMs diluting the rules must be a thing. Would only be natural, PnP RPGs are still just power fantasies too and people who play them want to get sth out of it instead of being shown again what incompetent and brainless fuckers they are like in RL. ^^
Decline didn't happen by accident or because of bad intentions.
We are inclined to decline from the day we are born.