Incline Temple of Elemental Evil

[Lord_Potato]

That would require actual encounter design and TOEE is not very good at it.

On the other hand, several best combats are yet before you - the elemental bosses and the final boss have quite many ways to fuck up tactics you describe, so press on, there will be some antidote to boredom.

It's a pity Troika never managed to make another game - hopefully with the roleplaying depth of Arcanum and the combat model similar to TOEE. It would be a sum of best parts and possibly the best crpg ever.

 

[Volourn]

"Hommlet is often criticised for its boring fetch quests but you can just choose to do a few easy ones like the goblin with a ring or not to do any of them, well other than the one that sends you to the moathouse. So it's a choice for the player just like in a tabletop game I guess."

U Dum. DMs who gives players as choice between doing optiona which is shit and option b of not doing it are poor DMs. A real choice would be having to option a which is awesome and option b which is awesome.

That's like giving me an option of cutting of my hand and an option of not cutting off hand. HMMM.. I wonder which I would want to choose. FFS.

On top of that, a game is supposed to want you to play it. It shouldn't be option a = play the shitty thing or b don't play the shit thing. LMFAO

 

[Darth Canoli]

The planes are decent but there's little interesting content there besides some NPC and the guardians, guardians fights are worth it though.

When you feel like replaying it, just remember my previous message, there is some capes which allow you to skip bugbear fights, you find them on the Temple empty ground floor.
Then, you can focus on the Temple's quests, character dev and the good encounters.

Of course, everyone is hoping Realms Beyond and KotC 2 are going to be what ToEE should have been (a modern version of Dark Sun without the cool settings).

 

[Jvegi]

The Temple is the worst dungeon ever.

Moathouse is the only good part.

There are very few interesting fights, and I think it's random which ones they are. You just have to happen to be the right level against the right group of enemies. One spell or level can make a potentially interesting fight a breeze. It sucks.
The best fight for me was one against a group of bugbears on the second(?) level, who flanked me from the adjacent corridor. It was great. Nothing after that came close.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Moathouse is the only good part.

There are very few interesting fights, and I think it's random which ones they are. You just have to happen to be the right level against the right group of enemies. One spell or level can make a potentially interesting fight a breeze. It sucks.
The best fight for me was one against a group of bugbears on the second(?) level, who flanked me from the adjacent corridor. It was great. Nothing after that came close.

Sure, the moathouse is great.

Still, each elemental priest/commander (mostly fire and water) offer great encounters, there's also the troll "ambush (lvl 3), the owlbear and the hydra, the minotaur, the harpies (lvl 1), the giant gelatinous cubes (for the variety), there is a really tough fight on the fourth floor involving a lot of high level bugbears and some ogres, the mage party, also on the fourth floor, elemental guardians, Hedrack/Iuz, the tower fight, the assassins between the tower and the temple, the goddess (forgot her name) in the basement, the king frog, the hill giant outside on the ancient battlefield ...

 

[gurugeorge]

So I've been plugging along, got to the elemental plane now, and I am pretty bored again. Why you ask?

Well the primary reason is that it's such a combat heavy game, and those always tend to wear me out quickly. The beauty of "full" RPGs is that they combine these different types of gameplay together, that serve as a welcome change of pace from each other. Tired of fighting? Go explore the world and find cool stuff. Walking getting old? Stop and talk with NPCs and engage in dialogue and lore. Don't feel like reading? Go solve puzzles or get back into combat.

But these combat slogs (ToEE, Icewind Dales, Diablo clones) just get really repetitive and boring after a while.

Then the other thing. But first, sit down. This WILL trigger you. As I made an argument elsewhere here before, tactical combat in RPGs is generally extremely repetitive and mindless. ToEE, which is considered one of the better tactical combat RPG systems, is a perfect example of this. It's a pretty good system as far as DnD goes, but every freaking fight, I am doing the same exact thing and having 100% success:

- move the tank in front and assume a defensive position
- move the healer behind him and other melee units slightly back of him
- wait until enemies aggro on tank, and start attacking them with melee
- throw in damage spells, occasionally utility/cc spells

There is absolutely no interesting decisions to make in any of this, and it just repeats every fight. How many fights in does this just start to bore the hell out of you?

This is exactly why I feel like aRPGs have an advantage, because the real time/timing elements bring excitement to a similarly shallow decision tree making that's missing in tactical RPGs. And among tactical RPGs, RTwP and single character turn based does better, RTwP because all this repetitive stuff runs in parallel and goes faster and allowing you to put more of it on auto pilot, and single character turn based lowers the amount of repetitive overhead.

But ultimately, I would love to see more truly tactical RPGs, where you are not just doing the same stuff over and over, but have to adjust dynamically every turn.

I hear you, but that's why tactical gameplay is much better for experimenting with different party combinations and builds - there the advantage is flipped, because RTwP gets too confusing when you have lots of abiltiies to choose from, but with turn-based you have the opportunity to relax with a coffee and a spliff and ponder deeply ALL the options you have with your weird and whacky combination of characters.

 

[Jigby]

This is probably coming too late for an advice, but if you ever happen to play the game again make sure to play it with Temple+'s alternative exp curve. It makes the temple significantly more interesting. Never play WITHOUT IT!

Also Ironman mentality.

 

[Jvegi]

Still

It's possible having two arcane spellcasters brakes late-game. Although even with one wizard you still have access to confusion and fireball. And stoneskin, the dumbest spell in the game.

My point is, you would need DM to balance encounters to make them consistently interesting. ToEE doesn't even have a difficulty slider.
Perhaps Temple+ changes things. I've played Co8 without new content.

the goddess (forgot her name)

Stoneskin and acid protection for your whole party, AoE summons and whack the boss for 30 minutes until it dies. Awesome.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Balance is shit, what's good about ToEE is you can tackle higher level monsters with a weaker party, nothing is more satisfying than killing the giant and the bear before clearing the moathouse or completing the "fishing" quest at low level.

Temple+ mostly adds a lot of classes and races, new rules and bug fixes.

Of course, the game could have been so much better but i like it already for leading the way.

Without ToEE, would there be KotC 1 & 2 ? And Realms Beyond ? I'm not so sure, so just for this, ToEE deserves his pedestal.

 

[urmom]

Imagine Volourn DM'ing your PnP session.

 

[Ninjerk]

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Ok, I completed the game.

Yesterday, finished off the last 4 elemental plane bosses (Balor and the Water guy). These guys are by far the toughest fights I've had in ToEE, especially Balor. Actually had to reload 3-4 times for him. Eventually decided that sending my massive damage fighter with a greatsword at him is a bad idea, so I just tanked him with my dwarf and summoned creatures, while slowly whittling his health down with my wizard from range. Took probably about 30 magic missiles, 5 cone of colds, chain lightnings, etc, and the summoned air boss also did some damage toward the end. Finally at the end, when I ran out of spells, I moved the fighter in and he closed the deal. Loooong ass fight.

So today, made it into the final level. I am guessing Troika ran out of money by this point, cause it's mostly empty. Anyway, by pure accident I found the easiest ending, just took the gems and banished Zuggtmoy for 66 years. I really didn't want to right her either, cause if I know anything about RPGs, the last fight is always retarded.

Final thoughts: Really much more of a combat demo than a full fledged RPG, there is some good stuff here (good general combat system, purdy graphics, some decent dungon design in places), but between the extreme dullness of Hommlet and Nulb at the start, and the bareness of the elemental planes and the final level at the end, just another flawed combat oriented slog. Way overrated here.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

P.S. I really don't understand how ToEE can make it to spot 21 on Codex All Time List, while almost no one here knows about Vulture (graphical 2D NetHack). I mean I realize these games are somewhat different but let's compare them anyway, since they are both RPGs about clearing out a dungeon:

Dungeon Levels
6 (ToEE)
50 in the main dungeon, + 6-7 side dungeons with 5-13 levels each (Vulture)

Level Cap
10 (ToEE)
None (Vulture)

Time to complete
20-40 hours (ToEE)
10+ years (if not looking up hints online) (Vulture)

Permadeath
No (ToEE)
Yes (Vulture)

Decide for yourselves.

 

[Darth Canoli]

P.S. I really don't understand how ToEE can make it to spot 21 on Codex All Time List, while almost no one here knows about Vulture (graphical 2D NetHack). I mean I realize these games are somewhat different but let's compare them anyway, since they are both RPGs about clearing out a dungeon:

Dungeon Levels 6 (ToEE) 50 in the main dungeon, + 6-7 side dungeons with 5-13 levels each (Vulture)

Level Cap 10 (ToEE) None (Vulture)

Time to complete 20-40 hours (ToEE) 10+ years (if not looking up hints online) (Vulture)

Permadeath No (ToEE) Yes (Vulture)

Decide for yourselves.

21st position ? It's not high enough, i agree.

Temple+ removes the level cap.
If you can play the same crap for ten years, no wonder you don't like good cRPG, wrong forum, just go play Wow or Candy Crush...

Permanent death exist in ToEE, just don't resurrect dead characters, if you have no self-discipline, that's your problem.

It's all decided.

 

[Max Damage]

With all my respect to NetHack, I don't think it shares many similarities with ToEE, you can also play Elona and do dungeoneering forever, but that doesn't necessarily make it a better game at everything, just different. As I get older and get less time to play due to work and other responsibilities, I appreciate games that can be completed/replayed in sensible amount of time. I cannot comment on publicly voted lists much, they're popularity graphs at best, in my opinion. What I personally like about ToEE the most is the sleek turn-based combat system and breadth of options it gives; not sure how (un)deserved its place as top 21, but this makes for pretty fun game when modded. Also, the obligatory "you are playing it wrong" part: healing and throwing damage spells is a waste of time and resources in fights, in pretty much every situation you are better off casting CC and summons, buff you characters before fighting (many potent buffs last a while, have those on always). This is 3.5e game, evocations do poor damage and are easily resisted with Reflex, node guardians have high saves and spell resistance on top of that. And if you are healing in combat other than to stabilize knocked out character, you're not casting spells that end the fight sooner, or wasting DPR, healing is pretty poor in the action economy.

 

[Roguey]

So today, made it into the final level. I am guessing Troika ran out of money by this point, cause it's mostly empty.

That's the way it is in the module.

 

[King Crispy]

If you didn't grow up playing and fiddling around with tabletop AD&D, 1e, or maybe 2e, then you just don't get it. You come from an era where you expect to be hand-fed your storyline. You need to have some sort of emotional carrot dangled out in front of you to enjoy an RPG. That's fine. It is what it is.

But you're trying to force yourself to play and enjoy a genre of game that's just not in your wheelhouse. It's like you're trying to sit there and enjoy cricket when you grew up watching baseball. It's not going to appeal to you, ever.

ToEE is a boring game. Yes. I/we can admit that. There's no real point to it other than to clear out the ghastly and unspeakable evil in the Temple that we spent at least a decade reading about in paper modules in a far distant past. Fine. You win.

But you can pry the amazing, inspired, unsurpassed and authentic turn-based tactical combat that ToEE lovingly provides from my cold, dead, desiccated fingers. If it takes a boring RPG to bring me that kind of combat, so be it.

 

[curds]

P.S. I really don't understand how ToEE can make it to spot 21 on Codex All Time List, while almost no one here knows about Vulture (graphical 2D NetHack). I mean I realize these games are somewhat different but let's compare them anyway, since they are both RPGs about clearing out a dungeon:

Dungeon Levels
6 (ToEE)
50 in the main dungeon, + 6-7 side dungeons with 5-13 levels each (Vulture)

Level Cap
10 (ToEE)
None (Vulture)

Time to complete
20-40 hours (ToEE)
10+ years (if not looking up hints online) (Vulture)

Permadeath
No (ToEE)
Yes (Vulture)

Decide for yourselves.

Yeah, because quantity totally equals quality... especially went it's all randomly generated.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Well, typically (with the exception of Dwarf Fortress of course), the advantage that handmade has over procedurally generated is the handmade content such as quests, writing, etc. Which ToEE doesn't really have much of, so that's kind of my point. You can play a vastly larger, more interesting dungeon, with a ton of more interactions and thinking, and way faster combat (single character, no animations), without really losing anything.

 

[Max Damage]

From my experience, the bigger a roguelike is, the more filler levels it has, at least from design point. ToEE is very much combat focused RPG, as someone who likes roguelikes, none I've played have combat system anywhere on the level, and if you want to reach that point, you won't have combat as fast (see: Demon). Single character vs full party is comparing apples and oranges here.

 

[gurugeorge]

Can somebody explain to me why PFK with the turn-based mod is not an improvement/iteration on, or at least a pretty decent version of the same thing as, ToEE turn-based combat?

I got mocked here for saying this a while ago, but to me, PFK+turn-based is pretty much the same thing as ToEE, just with better graphics. (I was so chuffed when the guy came out with the mod for PFK because I'd always loved ToEE and wanted to see something like that again.)

 

[NJClaw]

Can somebody explain to me why PFK with the turn-based mod is not an improvement/iteration on, or at least a pretty decent version of the same thing as, ToEE turn-based combat?

I got mocked here for saying this a while ago, but to me, PFK+turn-based is pretty much the same thing as ToEE, just with better graphics. (I was so chuffed when the guy came out with the mod for PFK because I'd always loved ToEE and wanted to see something like that again.)

It's not an improvement because Kingmaker AI doesn't know how to handle the turn based mod and the game wasn't developed with strict turns in mind. You see all the times enemies wasting their turns with pointless movements or forgetting to take 5-feet steps. It's still great, but, being a mod, everything feels rough and unpolished. Maybe with the upcoming August patch that will introduce the official turn based mode things will get better, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Our best bet is the new TB mode getting high praise from the mainstream public and convincing Owlcat to spend a lot of resources on that in Wrath of the Righteous.

 

[Darth Canoli]

No delayed actions, first, and an optimized engine (ToEE) against an engine running with 666TB saves around engame (PK), also, half PK quest are fetch quests behind multiple loading walls.

Sure, PK 2 could be a decent successor if they tried really hard, i'm not seing it happening just now but it's possible.

 

[gurugeorge]

Can somebody explain to me why PFK with the turn-based mod is not an improvement/iteration on, or at least a pretty decent version of the same thing as, ToEE turn-based combat?

I got mocked here for saying this a while ago, but to me, PFK+turn-based is pretty much the same thing as ToEE, just with better graphics. (I was so chuffed when the guy came out with the mod for PFK because I'd always loved ToEE and wanted to see something like that again.)

It's not an improvement because Kingmaker AI doesn't know how to handle the turn based mod and the game wasn't developed with strict turns in mind. You see all the times enemies wasting their turns with pointless movements or forgetting to take 5-feet steps. It's still great, but, being a mod, everything feels rough and unpolished. Maybe with the upcoming August patch that will introduce the official turn based mode things will get better, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Our best bet is the new TB mode getting high praise from the mainstream public and convincing Owlcat to spend a lot of resources on that in Wrath of the Righteous.

Yeah that makes sense. It seems Owlcat know what side their bread's buttered, as they're now introducing it properly as an update into the first game and they seem to be touting turn-based as intergrated into WotR.

I've often seen the excuse for not developing both RTwP and TB in the same game that they're "too different" in some way, with the suggestion that a development team can really only do one well. I wonder how true that is?

At any rate, clearly turn-based gaming is more popular now in a broad sense as a result of the popularity of XCOM, and I think also you've got second and third generations of gamers who are growing older and want something that's less twitchy, more relaxing to play physically but still cerebrally challenging, and with pretty visuals that take full advantage of modern graphics improvements.

RTwP certainly has its charms (especially for trash mob fights, to make you feel mighty), and ideally you do want to be able to switch between both modes at will, as you can do in PFK. It's just so perfect having both options. But ultimately, I think that the more abilities one has (and D&D style gaming always has a ton), the more one wants to be able to ponder all the options one has before making a move, and also one wants to have the surety of fixed turn progression as opposed to the slightly "hairy" feeling of RTwP, that maybe you're not doing the optimal thing timing-wise.

 

[Jvegi]

If those combat systems are so goddamn cool, then explain to me why both KotC and ToEE feel the need to cover the screen with enemies outnumbering your party 3 to 1? Also, why no grappling and bullrushing, heh?

IE has its own flaws to be sure, but somehow those games had no problem creating interesting, tactical encounters with very few enemies.

I enjoyed a lot about ToEE. The reason I'm mad about it is because of the disappointment and unfulfillment it left me with.