Game News Tentative Torment Kickstarter Tiers Announced

[EG]

C) Colin's response implied that people won't back up the game for two reasons: either to be edgy and score "I was right" points or because they are stupid.

I think he was referring to people who say the game is bad before it comes out, not all people in the universe who don't back the kickstarter.

That's how I read it as well, though that sentiment seemed lacking in this thread.

 

[tuluse]

C) Colin's response implied that people won't back up the game for two reasons: either to be edgy and score "I was right" points or because they are stupid.

I think he was referring to people who say the game is bad before it comes out, not all people in the universe who don't back the kickstarter.

That's how I read it as well, though that sentiment seemed lacking in this thread.

Yeah, I guess he read Harold's criticisms as "you suck at game design and your next game will suck because of it".

 

[Zeriel]

C) Colin's response implied that people won't back up the game for two reasons: either to be edgy and score "I was right" points or because they are stupid.

I think he was referring to people who say the game is bad before it comes out, not all people in the universe who don't back the kickstarter.

That's how I read it as well, though that sentiment seemed lacking in this thread.

Yeah, I guess he read Harold's criticisms as "you suck at game design and you're next game will because of it".

His post started with salivating over "butt-hurt potential". That's not the tact you take when you are actually interested in discussing someone's past work.

 

[Vault Dweller]

This strikes me as a rather strange complaint to hear from someone whose best moments in interviewing were telling everyone to fuck off and that modern RPGs are garbage.

Aren't they? For the record, I've never told everyone to fuck off. If you're talking about that RPS interview, Kieron asked me what I thought of the comments and told him that some comments were too fucking stupid, which they were, and that he should take this opportunity to educate his readers.

The comments in question were:

“Wow, I will never play a game like that, ever. I loathe turn-based games, which is the main reason why I refuse to play any Final Fantasy game. It takes me straight out of the immersion of a game when everyone lines up and takes TURNS swiping at each other. Give me something that involves my skill. I absolutely hate it when my hit chance relies on some random dice roll. That is pure and total BS.”

“Taking turns fighting may be something “classic” and “niche” audience, but it’s “niche” for a reason, people are looking to new things, and while rolling dice worked for pen and paper, we don’t have to do that anymore and for most people, it’s just not all that fun. Real time is just more immersive for most that want to deal with something that feels more like a real world, not a jumble of numbers and calculations on screen, the illusion is maintained with it off screen, happening in real time while people move and fire freely aiming where they want, when they want, how they want.”

(That's you, by the way.) I respect him more for just saying "if you don't like my shit, then don't contribute", than trying to defend his design point-by-point to some random person on the internet. As much as we'd all like to pretend we're important for posting on a forum, I don't think his response to any one individual like that says much of anything.

Saying don't like it, don't contribute and leaving at that would have been better. Adding the rest of it wasn't necessary.

And what does self-importance got to do with anything? We post our opinions on different shit and engage in conversations not because we think we are so important but because we don't have anything better to do at the moment.

For what it's worth, Harold's post was pretty dumb, too. When you open your criticism with "by the way, I posted this before, and it's BRILLIANT" (scroll up, he said this about himself), I think you've foresworn any right to being taken seriously.

I tend to read the arguments, not the intros or forewords.

More on topic, it would be nice to see a more substansial Kickstarter pitch with actual design examples, but let's be real. I'm not holding my breath. They'd be kind of stupid to mention specifics, too: the moment you start saying definitively what you're doing is the moment you turn off at least some people and start losing potential money. I may not like it, but I understand it.

I understand that they can make more money by selling dreams, but I'd rather see developers taking a slightly different approach.

 

[EG]

C) Colin's response implied that people won't back up the game for two reasons: either to be edgy and score "I was right" points or because they are stupid.

I think he was referring to people who say the game is bad before it comes out, not all people in the universe who don't back the kickstarter.

That's how I read it as well, though that sentiment seemed lacking in this thread.

Yeah, I guess he read Harold's criticisms as "you suck at game design and you're next game will because of it".

His post started with salivating over "butt-hurt potential". That's not the tact you take when you are actually interested in discussing someone's past work.

The Codex must be informed immediately.

 

[Vault Dweller]

C) Colin's response implied that people won't back up the game for two reasons: either to be edgy and score "I was right" points or because they are stupid.

I think he was referring to people who say the game is bad before it comes out, not all people in the universe who don't back the kickstarter.

That's how I read it as well, though that sentiment seemed lacking in this thread.

Indeed. I don't recall anyone saying anything negative about it.

 

[FeelTheRads]

(my butthurt comment was in referrence to the fanboys who were praising said areas without giving any arguments,

Oh, right, no arguments like those in your BRILLIANT ( NOW PLZ BROFIST NOW) post of yours. This sucked, this I liked, this I didn't, that was cool. Brilliant arguments, man. How do you do it? Please post them again, someone else besides VD might find them compelling at some point.

I tend to read the arguments, not the intros or forewords.

I guess that's why your posts are always deconstructions and taking out of context of every little thing a person says.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"But... but you took it out of the context!" is a popular counter-argument when you run out of anything more substantial.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, if I may interject, this is kind of an awkward conversation at this point because it's not like Colin or I are going to start posting information here right now to satiate your needs.

Not that anyone asked him. Until Colin showed up, the discussion was mostly theoretical. What's more important in a Torment game, etc.

But that isn't saying, and in no way is Colin claiming, that we want to sell you this game without an inkling of the vision of the game or the narrative and writing you can expect. We're already aware of the fact that we have to approach that differently compared to earlier kickstarters, and it'll come in the pitch and during the Kickstarter drive itself. Neither of you are wrong to want more info both on the team and the content of the game, but I'm hoping you'll get your fill during the drive.

All the above is a pretty empty statement....

It's not, actually, and I thank you for clarifying things.

 

[Harold]

His post started with salivating over "butt-hurt potential". That's not the tact you take when you are actually interested in discussing someone's past work.

Sup newfag, how's 2013 treating you? I hope you don't mind the way this post starts, I really don't fee like editing it.
The brilliant part of my quote-post was just me being pretend smarmy, i.e. making fun of myself for quoting myself. I'm complex like that.

Spoiler

That last line was another example.

The butt-hurt part, like I told hiver, referred to previous posters that praised the areas mccomb designed without giving arguments. I had no idea Infinitron would tag mccomb, my post wasn't aimed at butthurting him or anything like that (it was made a month ago, see the link). I guess it's much easier to dismiss my argumets as tl;dr crap and just call me dumb for not liking my tone so you can get back to the circlejerk. After all, we all know the codex is very sensitive when it comes to tone, as the VD/VoD Witcher 2 review showed us.

Oh, right, no arguments like those in your BRILLIANT ( NOW PLZ BROFIST NOW) post of yours. This sucked, this I liked, this I didn't, that was cool. Brilliant arguments, man. How do you do it? Please post them again, someone else besides VD might find them compelling at some point.

I would gladly post my brilliant post again so its brilliance can illuminate this thread like the tides of eternity (man, was that turn of phrase brilliant or what?) but it will not help with your reading comprehension, sadly.

 

[FeelTheRads]

but it will not help with your reading comprehension, sadly.

"You lack reading comprehension" is a popular counter-argument when you haven't actually said anything of substance and want to hide it by blaming others for not understanding your depth.

 

[Zeriel]

His post started with salivating over "butt-hurt potential". That's not the tact you take when you are actually interested in discussing someone's past work.

Sup newfag, how's 2013 treating you? I hope you don't mind the way this post starts, I really don't fee like editing it.
The brilliant part of my quote-post was just me being pretend smarmy, i.e. making fun of myself for quoting myself. I'm complex like that.

Spoiler

That last line was another example.

The butt-hurt part, like I told hiver, referred to previous posters that praised the areas mccomb designed without giving arguments. I had no idea Infinitron would tag mccomb, my post wasn't aimed at butthurting him or anything like that (it was made a month ago, see the link). I guess it's much easier to dismiss my argumets as tl;dr crap and just call me dumb for not liking my tone so you can get back to the circlejerk. After all, we all know the codex is very sensitive when it comes to tone, as the VD/VoD Witcher 2 review showed us.

Oh, right, no arguments like those in your BRILLIANT ( NOW PLZ BROFIST NOW) post of yours. This sucked, this I liked, this I didn't, that was cool. Brilliant arguments, man. How do you do it? Please post them again, someone else besides VD might find them compelling at some point.

I would gladly post my brilliant post again so its brilliance can illuminate this thread like the tides of eternity (man, was that turn of phrase brilliant or what?) but it will not help with your reading comprehension, sadly.

The unfortunate thing about self-referential humor and in-jokes is that most people won't get them. While using them on other people in some random forum is fine since you're probably not expecting much, trying to get valid explanations from a game designer who doesn't know you is a little different. I suppose Infinitron is to blame for this, then? We were all just trying to troll each other and glory in how great our month-old posts were, and he had to go and actually involve a game designer. I didn't dismiss your arguments as TL: DR crap (I read them all, I disagree with some of them, find merit in others), I just didn't find Colin's reply at all surprising or out of place considering how they were presented.

 

[Kz3r0]

Avellone.
Bet $5.

Neal Hallford, 5,000 posts.

 

[hiver]

B) Harold's post wasn't offensive. He liked some things and characters, didn't like the others. He explained why. His explanation makes sense and can't be easily dismissed.

The fact that it isnt directly, openly and blatantly offensive is irrelevant.
His personal opinions about PST are thrown out to clearly and directly imply Colin is a bad designer and writer.
He then retardedly expects Colin will defend from it and prove those negatives wrong - which is totally and laughably idiotic, stupidly arrogant and presumptions.

He clearly says he is aiming for butthurt and, in a cheap emotional blackmail attempt, if he doesnt get a reply, he will call someone butthurt.

The game certainly had a lot of parts that "could have been better". We all know that, we dont need harold to elucidate us and all of those have been discussed,
but none of those things mean that Colin is somehow responsible and to blame for how things turned out.

To even think so is extremely stupid and utterly idiotic since it implies Colin had some sort of executive control over that content and game in general.

C) Colin's response implied that people won't back up the game for two reasons: either to be edgy and score "I was right" points or because they are stupid.

No, it did not imply any such thing.
His response related to one of the usual ways in which morons on codex and internets in general try to score a point.
- by calling things shit before they are made and then getting ego points when one of those "predictions" becomes true - in true fashion of a blind chicken hitting that one corn.
It was quite a nice, direct to the point reply about that specific thing.

It's not offensive by the local standards either,

its a very simple, shallow shit licker loop i am not going to repeat this ten times.

but it would have been much more productive if Colin simply shared his thoughts on the game and his ideas on how to do it right.

And i wish tomorrow the rainbows would shine and everyone would be happy.

I dont see why anyone would need to respond positively to a fucking moron like harold.
Expecting that is ridiculous.

Expecting more info is not ridiculous.

I mean, if inXile can share their thoughts on what's most important - the tiers - before starting a ks campaign, I don't see why they can't talk about less important things now.

Kicksterter is starting next week ... so .. business.
BN just told you this too. It isnt rocket science.

Clearly they are aware that there needs to be more info presented.
We will just have to wait a little bit and then see.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The fact that it isnt directly, openly and blatantly offensive is irrelevant.
His personal opinions about PST are thrown out to clearly and directly imply Colin is a bad designer and writer.
He then retardedly expects Colin will defend from it and prove those negatives wrong - which is totally and laughably idiotic, stupidly arrogant and presumptions.

He re-posted his old post in response to other people's comments, way before Colin showed up. Thus, you can't say that he expected Colin to defend himself and you should probably tone down your own attacks. The guy posted his opinion. How stupidly arrogant, presumptuous, and laughingly idiotic, eh?

The game certainly had a lot of parts that "could have been better". We all know that, we dont need harold to elucidate us and all of those have been discussed,
but none of those things mean that Colin is somehow responsible and to blame for how things turned out.

Every game has parts that could have been better. PST had a lot of weak parts (like Undersigil, for example, and some late game areas) and now would be a good time to talk about it. Colin is responsible for some but not all of them.

His response related to one of the usual ways in which morons on codex and internets in general try to score a point.
- by calling things shit before they are made and then getting ego points when one of those "predictions" becomes true - in true fashion of a blind chicken hitting that one corn.
It was quite a nice, direct to the point reply about that specific thing.

Did ANYONE call it shit? No? Then his response was unwarranted.

but it would have been much more productive if Colin simply shared his thoughts on the game and his ideas on how to do it right.

And i wish tomorrow the rainbows would shine and everyone would be happy.

Are you implying that expecting a developer to share his thoughts is an utterly unrealistic expectation these days?

I dont see why anyone would need to respond positively to a fucking moron like harold.

Are you saying that he came specifically to reply to Harold because he said mean things about his work?

 

[Infinitron]

why the fuck are you talking to hiver instead of working on AoD

 

[FeelTheRads]

The butt-hurt part, like I told hiver, referred to previous posters that praised the areas mccomb designed without giving arguments.

Also what posters? Nobody even bothered to reply to your shit (guess we were too butthurt to be able to type) until after McComb did and then you posted the "LOLOL BUTTHURT DETECTED" in reply to him. But yeah, sure, you totally didn't mean him when you said that.

Some people really choose very obscure niches when directing their butthurt inducing posts, I have to say. "Fanboys" of what you goddamn fucking retard? Of McComb? Of Planescape? LOLO HE SAID HE LIKED SOMETHING MORE THAN OTHER WHAT A FANBOY. Maybe I should conclude you're a butthurt fanboy of Avellone crying that not everybody considers one single man responsible for Torment which is pretty much a fucking absurd thing to do?

 

[Harold]

"You lack reading comprehension" is a popular counter-argument when you haven't actually said anything of substance and want to hide it by blaming others for not understanding your depth.

Please tell me how the following lack depth/are not actually arguments etc.

Very little detail/dialogue to make me want to side with the Many against the undead.

So, the player needs to be told about Ravel holding the key to his mortality. Of all the ways this could be accomplished, he went with an all-powerful unkillable npc that can also kill TNO, and the plot would not progress until you paid him a visit. Why would I care to do that? Because he sends rats to kidnap Morte? What if my TNO doesn't care about Morte?

regarding Carceri: You are either forced to role-play as a paladin and stop the chaos and evil, regardless of how you played thus far or, if you don't care about the town, go straight after Trias and lose a buttload of xp. Yay for punishing role-play. Also, iwhy does the town slide back regardless of whether you chose to end the chaos or just go after Trias.

My opinions regarding characters may be considered subjective so we will leave those aside for now, since your mileage may vary.

The unfortunate thing about self-referential humor and in-jokes is that most people won't get them. While using them on other people in some random forum is fine since you're probably not expecting much, trying to get valid explanations from a game designer who doesn't know you is a little different.

That was not my intent. MY POST WAS MADE IN JANUARY and I quoted it in response to other posters praising those areas. How many times do I have to repeat this?

I suppose Infinitron is to blame for this, then?

Of course he is, he's a jew.

I didn't dismiss your arguments as TL: DR crap (I read them all, I disagree with some of them, find merit in others), I just didn't find Colin's reply at all surprising or out of place considering how they were presented.

I never asked colin to register on the codex, I did not tag him in the thread, and just because Infinitron tagged him after my post didn't mean he was obligated to give me the time of day. He chose to do so, and took my post as bitching at him for the sake of getting internet cred, despite the fact that anyone who actually read my quoted post could see that was not my intent. Like VD said, my tone wasn't all that agressive compared to the rest of the place. If i had send him an email with that content than he could dismiss me as a troll and flag it as spam. I didn't. I posted it on the codex. If he, or anyone else, wants to only hear excessively-politely phrased criticism, they could just as easily register on neogaf.

hiver Why do you insist on not taking those pills and make me worry about you so? How do you expect me to climb over that anger wall if you don't help me at all? Why do you hurt me so?

 

[Zeriel]

Let this be a lesson that reusing content is bad for normal people, too, not just writers for the New Yorker!

 

[Infinitron]

To be honest, I was hoping that Colin would respond substantively to Harold's criticism of his work in PS:T.

 

[Harold]

Yes, it's totally my fault that some of you can't be bothered to read the page of posts that came before mine itt, or to see that my post was originally from a january thread, even though I provided the link to said thread in the very goddamn post that was quoting my previous fucking post. I should've just copy-pasted my opinions again and acted like they came to me just then.

 

[Koschey]

Butthurt detected

 

[hiver]

The fact that it isnt directly, openly and blatantly offensive is irrelevant.
His personal opinions about PST are thrown out to clearly and directly imply Colin is a bad designer and writer.
He then retardedly expects Colin will defend from it and prove those negatives wrong - which is totally and laughably idiotic, stupidly arrogant and presumptions.

He re-posted his old post in response to other people's comments, way before Colin showed up. Thus, you can't say that he expected Colin to defend himself and you should probably tone down your own attacks. The guy posted his opinion. How stupidly arrogant, presumptuous, and laughingly idiotic, eh?

Reposting this brilliant yet unjustly ignored post of mine for maximum butthurt potential:

:burrrrp:

I aint gona tone down shit.
His fucking opinion about some features is not what im referring to and you know it.

Every game has parts that could have been better. PST had a lot of weak parts (like Undersigil, for example, and some late game areas) and now would be a good time to talk about it. Colin is responsible for some but not all of them.

There you go presuming Colin had executive control over the game.
Besides, many of the areas and characters he mentioned i consider among the best in the game, and so do many others.


Harold can go fuck himself in the ass with something spiny and sharp.

Did ANYONE call it shit? No? Then his response was unwarranted.

It was implied and thats how things very usually go. Dont they?

Are you implying that expecting a developer to share his thoughts is an utterly unrealistic expectation these days?

I guess ill just have to repeat stuff then:

I dont see why anyone would need to respond positively to a fucking moron like harold.

His personal opinions about PST are thrown out to clearly and directly imply Colin is a bad designer and writer.
He then retardedly expects Colin will defend from it and prove those negatives wrong - which is totally and laughably idiotic, stupidly arrogant and presumptions.

/

Are you saying that he came specifically to reply to Harold because he said mean things about his work?

Classy. So what if he did? Is he forbidden to do so?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Very little detail/dialogue to make me want to side with the Many against the undead.

Subjective. Irrelevant. Maybe the intention was that you want to join the undead.

Can you even join the Many, though? I seem to remember trying something like that and couldn't for some reason.

What if my TNO doesn't care about Morte?

What if my character doesn't want to fight? ((((
VD used to Laugh Out Loud at this "argument". Now it's a good one, though.

regarding Carceri: You are either forced to role-play as a paladin and stop the chaos and evil, regardless of how you played thus far or, if you don't care about the town, go straight after Trias and lose a buttload of xp. Yay for punishing role-play. Also, iwhy does the town slide back regardless of whether you chose to end the chaos or just go after Trias.

The end areas have been rushed. Even god almighty Avellone admitted, so it must be true.

Yes, it's totally my fault that some of you can't be bothered to read the page of posts that came before mine itt, or to see that my post was originally from a january thread, even though I provided the link to said thread in the very goddamn post that was quoting my previous fucking post. I should've just copy-pasted my opinions again and acted like they came to me just then.

Waaah waaah, why doesn't everybody recognize my brilliant humor and trolling. (((

 

[l3loodAngel]

To be honest, I was hoping that Colin would respond substantively to Harold's criticism of his work in PS:T.

Why is Harold so important that Colin should respond to him? TBH big part of his "criticisms" boil down to I don't like some stuff category without any argumentation. Some parts that do have arguments are very weak, like "cool" voice acting for not so cool character according to Harold. I am not even talking about this Narcissistic self quote.