Game News The Age of Decadence Released

[Irenaeus II]

Exactly. This is the best evidence of decline on the dex. It's like getting mad you can't get a girlfriend because you've invested all your time watching anime and being a basement-dwelling nerd instead of being in shape, having good hygiene, and being able to hold a conversation Mustawd.

The world doesn't revolve around you mate.

haha Would have brofisted if I could

 

[Excidium II]

Mustawd likes to parade around that he has a wife to fool himself into thinking he made a good life decision.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Maybe she's rich

 

[Cadmus]

It sounds to me that Dodge is obviously superior but I should play a block guy first I guess.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Lurker King

What you don't understand is that blockers are getting heavy armour and dodgers are getting light armour because BLOCK IS SHIT.

Blockers NEED heavy armour since they still take damage even if they successfully defend.

The opportunity cost of low defense penalties(light armour) is higher for BLOCK because they are giving up DR that they need ALL THE TIME AND NOT ONLY IF THEY DEFEND and dodgers only need it if they fail to defend, also because for them the value of increased defense chance is lower than for a dodger since a successful dodge is simply better than a successful block.

Whereas dodgers couldn't be arsed to get armour with high penalties and higher DR because their DEFENSE SKILL IS ACTUALLY GOOD.

Originally, Dodge and Block were nearly identical. Same concept (no damage gets through), same passive. The main difference was that if a blocker fails to block, he still had armor whereas dodger had none. So we wanted to change that and make sure that the skills are different and require different playstyles.

I favor Blockers, play them often (and yes, you need good armor), and never had any problems forcing me to give up and abandon my character. Every now and then I get these moments like the rain of arrows from the monastery when I feel really good about having a shield.

 

[Tigranes]

They're both viable. The most typical, easy way to success is (1) two-hander light armour dodger with high DEX; (2) one-hand/shield heavy armour blocker with high CON. Both models, in a combat heavy build, can take on most of the fights in AOD without huge problems.

They will also experience different kinds of roadblocks. A blocker might come across well armoured enemies that his puny one-handed weapon struggles to overcome, ironically making dodgers better suited to killing them. But a dodger always has to stay ahead of the game, because when he can't control space and avoid getting hit (e.g. because there's a high-weapon skill crossbowman at the back behind the two melee thugs), then he has to really hope his RNG doesn't fail him.

 

[Mustawd]

Maybe she's rich

She's not

 

[hivemind]

Originally, Dodge and Block were nearly identical. Same concept (no damage gets through), same passive. The main difference was that if a blocker fails to block, he still had armor whereas dodger had none. So we wanted to change that and make sure that the skills are different and require different playstyles.

I favor Blockers, play them often (and yes, you need good armor), and never had any problems forcing me to give up and abandon my character. Every now and then I get these moments like the rain of arrows from the monastery when I feel really good about having a shield.

I'm not saying that block isn't viable to beat the game(even tho I guess called it shit so it might sound that way) just that dodge is currently ever so slightly better from a minmaxish perspective because of the mentioned reasons.

I'm curious tho, why do you prefer Blockers ? Is it just because of the ranged bonus ? Or just because of the cool factor that being a heavily armored juggernaut brings with it ?

The most typical, easy way to success is (1) two-hander light armour dodger with high DEX; (2) one-hand/shield heavy armour blocker with high CON.

My issue with this is that the blocker also really benefits from having high STR because that's his defense boosting stat. You basically have 3 combat stats(excluding per for now) that you REALLY benefit from to the point of needing them whereas dodgers truly only need 1 and so it gives them more flexibility in stat point allocation.

 

[Zeriel]

I don't think Dodge builds getting extra attacks 50% of the time at max rank is a "slight" difference. Someone mentioned "heavy armor" as a demerit for dodge, but that isn't true either. I wore heavy armor for most of the game, the penalties are rather insignificant once you get really high dodge and crafting. This is as a combat focused character obviously with the right skills, maybe it's different for hybrids. I feel like the power armor also pushes you heavily in the direction of dodge. Sure, it comes with a shield you can't remove, but it also has a max AP of _20_, which means DEX, which means you might as well be dodgin' and weavin'.

 

[Mozg]

But even with high dodge you can take some real damage from time to time, due to chance. Two-handers are really powerful, that is undeniable, but light weapons can provide more THC bonus and can be used with more acessories. I think that the only thing we can say for sure, concerning comparisons, is that the axe is the best weapon - but crossbows are not bad either.

Eh, I'm not sure. Swords and daggers will generally start with higher hit % scores since dex is more critical than strength for a combat character, and I think they both get more "free" training opportunities. Swords get hands down the best buyable weapon in Maadoran and getting that steel +20hit dagger is pretty easy. And at the point you are 10-crafting up sharpened meteor weapons in the endgame daggers at least as good as axes since you're stacking up so many flat bonuses like sharpen 5 that getting 2 AP fast attacks starts to work. Hammers kinda suck for the player because you are generally fighting multiple guys and having to dent through each of their armors is not too exciting. Great for the AI though.

I was surprised when it turned out that the "armor penalty" on heavy armor and even shields applies to blocking as well as dodging. I had thought the dodge/block balance thing was that the armor penalty only applied to dodging and I'm pretty sure that's how it was in the combat demo.

The main good thing about block is that you basically get a free skill level worth of extra defense over dodge and some extra vsCrit.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Seems like one of the problem is how easy you can get superior swords and daggers in Maadoran!

 

[Jaedar]

I think block vs dodge can be pretty neatly summed up as: The best case scenario for blockers(guaranteed no damage) is the standard scenario for dodgers.

Block tries to make up for it by having +15 and not being affected by armor, but its just not enough.

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but if a dodger equips a tower shield, as long as the dodge is still higher than block, he'll get the defense bonus vs ranged to his dodges against ranged attacks?

 

[Excidium II]

Seems like one of the problem is how easy you can get superior swords and daggers in Maadoran!

Sounds like the CRPG tradition of non-sword users getting shafted.

 

[Lurker King]

What you don't understand is that blockers are getting heavy armour and dodgers are getting light armour because BLOCK IS SHIT.

Blockers in general get heavy armor because that is their optimal choice. You need STR to use a shield and DEX to dodge. If you are a blocker, you can also use a heavy armor, since you don’t need too much DEX to dodge.

Blockers NEED heavy armour since they still take damage even if they successfully defend.

Where did you get that idea? It all depends on the DR of your shield in comparison to the damage taken. You can take a lot of damage from axes and hammers, but from daggers? Not really. Besides, with high levels of block, you obtain shield mastery defense from any attack most of the time. You take little damage. You are comparing small levels of block with high levels of dodge to justify your conclusions.

The opportunity cost of low defense penalties(light armour) is higher for BLOCK because they are giving up DR that they need ALL THE TIME AND NOT ONLY IF THEY DEFEND and dodgers only need it if they fail to defend, also because for them the value of increased defense chance is lower than for a dodger since a successful dodge is simply better than a successful block .

Not really. You can make a very effective shield with good DR and survive all the battles handily.

Whereas dodgers couldn't be arsed to get armour with high penalties and higher DR because their DEFENSE SKILL IS ACTUALLY GOOD.

They can’t use heavy armor because they don’t dodge well with high armor, not because they are superior in anything.

The thing is that dodgers can wear heavy armour and still be better off compared just to blockers in heavy armour since the penalties for both of those skills are equal and one skills has a simply better SUCCESS state and their FAILURE states are equal.

Why? That is very vague. What are the stats of the dodger, and what are the penalties? He has high crafting? No? What is the type of metal he use? He has a meteor armor? How many points in CON he has?

Dodger can have low con because they survive with low con. Blockers CAN'T have low con because they would just die

You also can eat sand and survive. That doesn’t make you superior to people that are allergic to sand, does it? That is a fallacy. You are making comparisons about different builds using the same stats, when you should compare how effective they are with their own stats. The relevant stat for a dodger is DEX. You can have an optimal dodge build with low CON, but you can’t have an effective build with low DEX. The relevant stats for a block build is STR. You can’t have an optimal blocker build with low STR, but you can have an effective blocker with low DEX, since DEX is not that relevant for blockers.

But a Dodger with high con is in a better position when compared to a Blocker with high con because dodge is inherently better than block.

But that is what you need to prove with arguments, not repeat as an obvious truth.

The fact that heavy armor low dex builds can work doesn't in any way diminish the comparative usefulness of dexterity.

But what does comparative usefulness even mean in this case? You can have many builds, but let’s restrict ourselves to two archetypes: heavy armored blockers and light armored dodgers.

Optimal heavy armored blockers rely primarily on STR (damage bonus) and CON (less poison damage and high survival rate). They can’t use two-hand weapons, but they can use every other trick in the book (nets, bolas, bombs, liquid fires, acid), and one handed-weapons in general have a better THC bonus. They produce less damage in comparison with a glass cannon dodger, but are more reliable in the long run, since they take less damage overall, including from poison. With high block and high crafted armor they are almost impenetrable. They can kill everything that moves, especially with crafting. Enemies with daggers don’t even tickle them.

Light armored dodgers rely primarily on DEX (more APs and combat initiative). They can use two-hand weapons, which amounts to more damage in the end, but can’t use nets, bolas, bombs, liquid fires, acid. They evade the damage when they are successful, and are very dificult to hit with high dodge, but even then they can be uttered fucked when they are hit, especially if they are hit on the legs. They take more damage in the long run. They can kill everything that moves.

So both can kill everything that moves and use different stats. The way I see things, the only “argument” you can use against heavy armor blockers is that they need high STR and high CON to succeed, while dodgers need only high DEX. But that is not bad at all, since CON is really useful for roleplaying reasons, but not DEX - and I’m not even considering the combos of high CON with items such as

Spoiler

the regeneration elixir.

 

[Zeriel]

Miltiades, you may be a quick talker, but even you can't convince us Block is as good as Dodge.

 

[Irenaeus II]

Miltiades, you may be a quick talker, but even you can't convince us Block is as good as Dodge.

 

[Lurker King]

Miltiades, you may be a quick talker, but even you can't convince us Block is as good as Dodge.

And you can't convice popamolers that AoD is better than Skyrm. That doesn't mean you are wrong.

 

[Mozg]

You can make a really competent dodger that is wearing 10AP armor. There's quite a few 10AP armors that have only 10 armor penalty - and you'd be wearing the same shit as a blocker, since armor penalty hurts blocking just as much as dodging.

One thing that's notable is if you want to make an RNG-proof 12 AP character you could run with 12 AP armor + blocking. The benefit being that you can get very high vsCrit without having to put on the super heavy shit.

 

[Zeriel]

And you can't convice popamolers that AoD is better than Skyrm. That doesn't mean you are wrong.

Have you tried high dodge rating with heavy armor with crafted reduced penalties/power armor? I notice you guys keep comparing the case of heavy armor block to light armor dodge, but that isn't really how I ever played the game past a certain point. Power armor was definitely where I felt any notion of balance fell away. Of COURSE you're going to wear the 20 max AP armor even if it reduces your dodge rating by a measly 10~. The only guy who consistently hit me in the late-game anyway was Mr. Squid, which is why I don't consider the penalties noticeable.

 

[Lurker King]

Miltiades, you may be a quick talker, but even you can't convince us Block is as good as Dodge.

A moment of your time, kind mister. I'm Miltiades, a merchant by trade. I'm terribly sorry to impose on you, but I have the finest shield that money can buy. Don't believe in the lies of naked fighters that state that dodge is always the best defense. Would you like to take a look? My wares are in a house nearby, right trough this alley.

Ten minutes later...

 

[Lurker King]

Have you tried high dodge rating with heavy armor with crafted reduced penalties/power armor? I notice you guys keep comparing the case of heavy armor block to light armor dodge, but that isn't really how I ever played the game past a certain point. Power armor was definitely where I felt any notion of balance fell away. Of COURSE you're going to wear the 20 max AP armor even if it reduces your dodge rating by a measly 10~. The only guy who consistently hit me in the late-game anyway was Mr. Squid, which is why I don't consider the penalties noticeable.

Of course, but the power armor is OP as fuck and it was designed to be useful even for for dodgers. Therefore, it can't be used as evidence in this discussion, since we are talking about armors in general. But as I said before, the discussion was about two archetypes that people generally have in mind when they talk about dodge vs block, nothing more. The truth is that you can try almost anything. The idead the game doesn't reward exploration and variety of builds is motivated by either little imagination or fear and lack of domain of the systems.

 

[Zeriel]

Of course, but the power armor is OP as fuck and it was designed to be useful even for for dodgers. Therefore, it can't be used as evidence in this discussion, since we are talking about armors in general. But as I said before, the discussion was about two archetypes that people generally have in mind when they talk about dodge vs block, nothing more. The truth is that you can try almost everything. Some players that think that the game doesn't reward variety of builds and exploration only because they have little imagination or are too afraid to die because they didn't master the systems yet.

I came around to dodge after playing block first. I thought block was pretty okay, then I tried dodge and was blown away by how ridiculous it is. I'm not sure I'd say block is bad--I WOULD say Dodge is overpowered for suresies and no takebacksies.

A moment of your time, kind mister. I'm Miltiades, a merchant by trade. I'm terribly sorry to impose on you, but I have the finest shield that money can buy. Don't believe in the lies of naked fighters that state that dodge is always the best defense. Would you like to take a look? My wares are in a house nearby, right trough this alley.

Ten minutes later...

If the management hadn't taken away my FISTS I would fist the shit out of this post.

 

[Irenaeus II]

I came around to dodge after playing block first. I thought block was pretty okay, then I tried dodge and was blown away by how ridiculous it is.

My experience was the same.

 

[Lurker King]

I came around to dodge after playing block first. I thought block was pretty okay, then I tried dodge and was blown away by how ridiculous it is. I'm not sure I'd say block is bad--I WOULD say Dodge is overpowered for suresies and no takebacksies.

I had the same experience, but that is because it is more difficult to get the right amount of STR, CON and crafting, especially crafting. I can guarantee you that once you know how, and when, to invest in crafting, the blocker build becomes a breeze. You will die way less, that is for sure.

 

[Irenaeus II]

That could be it. The dogde build is just way EASIER to get right.