Elder Scrolls The appeal of Skyrim

[Bad Sector]

Morrowind does it best: it automatically maps out the areas you visit but the rest are hidden until you visit them (and you can use this dark fog as an indicator of how much of the world you've visited).

Fog of war. Used in strategy games since times immemorial. Nothing wrong with it.

Yeah, exactly that, it just felt a bit weird to call it fog "of war" so i called it just "fog" :-P.

EDIT: though in strategy games (or at least RTSs) the fog often also has an additional element where it covers changes when things are "re-fogged" (often being grayed out or something) until you enter in range again. I'm not sure how that'd work in an RPG however since large changes in the world in RPGs that you're not around to notice are extremely rare.

 

[darkfader]

I enjoyed Oblivion on XBOX, and Skyrim on PC as RPG Lite as they are.
I think I spent more time configuring my .ini through notepad trying to squeeze it through my 512 MB GFX card than actually playing the game though. lol

My approach is more optimistic than most.
In the 90's, any game release is a good release, and can't hurt. If you don't like it, don't play it.
This generation is FAR too spoiled to take a critical approach on any game.

 

[anvi]

I picked the last one but I am not a "Sperg"... I am spunky though.

 

[MWaser]

Morrowind does it best: it automatically maps out the areas you visit but the rest are hidden until you visit them (and you can use this dark fog as an indicator of how much of the world you've visited).

Fog of war. Used in strategy games since times immemorial. Nothing wrong with it.

Yeah, exactly that, it just felt a bit weird to call it fog "of war" so i called it just "fog" :-P.

EDIT: though in strategy games (or at least RTSs) the fog often also has an additional element where it covers changes when things are "re-fogged" (often being grayed out or something) until you enter in range again. I'm not sure how that'd work in an RPG however since large changes in the world in RPGs that you're not around to notice are extremely rare.

the difference between fog of war fading back in or not is quite individual per game. After all, some strategy games don't even feature fog of war and things you explore are permanently visible (ie. HoMM games)
I like to use the term from warcraft 3, Black Mask, for the things which have never been explored and "fog of war" for that which has been explored but fogs back in because it's not currently seen, but there is no universally understood term which differentiates the fog that returns from the fog that doesn't.

 

[anvi]

The reason why I keep going back to Command & Conquer: Tiberian Sun is because the fog of war was pretty unique. Everything was black until you explored and revealed it, but in that game they had valleys that you could block. So each player could block off a large area to build your base, and small units reach this bottleneck and get killed. So basically nobody attacks until later in the game when you have a big stompy interesting army. It made the games more fun, less spam. But the mechanics made it work, the cursor could click beyond the darkness if you were sending a land unit, so you could explore the whole map and work out where the enemy is. Then you send a big army of tanks to break through the bottleneck and reveal their base. But if you failed and their base stayed covered, you couldn't send any flying craft or nukes.

I probably rambled more than necessary but I loved it and yet it was the only RTS that does this.

tl-dr- Westwood were on another level to the retard games industry today.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle still holds true to this day.

My pet peeve though it's not so much that the games lack substance or depth (plenty of vacous shit games out whose sheer existence doesn't make me rage), but that they are shit even on a technical level (and this is coming from a supposed AAA company).

I still can't play New Vegas to this day because of how horrifying the visuals are, and no amount of visual mods can fix how ugly those games are because it's not just about the textures or models but the very structure of the world and how those things mash togheter which is amateurish to an astounding degree.

I have a friend who is obsessed with installing graphic mods for Skyrim and it's the very definition of putting a lipstick on a pig.

Basically, Bethesda to me embodies incompetence on a grand scale. Literally everything is shit. The mechanics are shit. The engine is shit. The quest design is shit. The writing shit. The UI is fucking shit there's not a single aspect of those games that wouldn't make me rage quit if i was stupid enough to attempt another playthrough.

They are so bad it's amazing to me that they got zero competition despite how popular they are. Sure you got this open world fad but it's not the same. It's like modern companies don't get the LARP and simulationist allure which at the end of the day is propably the reason people love those games. Despite being total shit about it Bethesda has the privilege of sitting on a formula that's pretty much exclusive to them because modern companies are so far removed from that kind of old school design principle they don't even understand what the formula is.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

I still can't play New Vegas to this day because of how horrifying the visuals are, and no amount of visual mods can fix how ugly those games are because it's not just about the textures or models but the very structure of the world and how those things mash togheter which is amateurish to an astounding degree.

I have a friend who is obsessed with installing graphic mods for Skyrim and it's the very definition of putting a lipstick on a pig.

Basically, Bethesda to me embodies incompetence on a grand scale. Literally everything is shit. The mechanics are shit. The engine is shit. The quest design is shit. The writing shit. The UI is fucking shit there's not a single aspect of those games that wouldn't make me rage quit if i was stupid enough to attempt another playthrough.

They are so bad it's amazing to me that they got zero competition despite how popular they are. Sure you got this open world fad but it's not the same. It's like modern companies don't get the LARP and simulationist allure which at the end of the day is propably the reason people love those games. Despite being total shit about it Bethesda has the privilege of sitting on a formula that's pretty much exclusive to them because modern companies are so far removed from that kind of old school design principle they don't even understand what the formula is.

Succ it up fagit lel

Seriously though, I guess it comes to weird personal tastes. I for example can imagine hundreds of games that mechanically play and look significantly worse that New Vegas: all of things like KOTOR/Mass Effect, all of Final Fantasy 7-type jrpgs, nu-Deus Exes, all of linear first person shooters, all of sports games, majority of racing games ,or those NWN types of games (I still sucked it up for TW1). The amount of "new games" that have great gameplay can be limited

Hell, speaking of Bethesda, you enjoy Daggerfall even though Morrowind is an infinitely superior game in almost every aspect, chief among them probably the no.1 fantasy setting/lore (which is what actually brought me to Hinduism/metaphysics in the first place) thanks to Michael Kirkbride. You're really missing out enormously, if you're not playing NV/Dead Money because of such trivial things.

The quest design is shit

 

[Lyric Suite]

Bitch Daggerfall had a killer atmosphere just because Morrowing was more exotic doesn't mean it was automatically better.

Daggerfall was more of a dungeon crawler counterpart to Elite so it's a different kind of game than Morrowind, less open world exploration but insane dungeon sessions with a kick off ethereal ambiance. True sometimes the algorythmn was retarded but occationally the brokeness of it actually worked in its favor since you literally did not know what to expect.

With all that out the way, i never said Morrowind was among the shit ones (even though some decline was already there) i was talking about Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Skyrim.

And sorry, there's nothing trivial about the shittiness of Fallout 3 New Vegas was forced to inherit. That game was THAT terrible. And are you fucking serious by linking to the New Vegas quest chart who the fuck was talking about New Vegas? Did Bethesda make New Vegas?

 

[[UCHIHA]XxDarkSasuke420xX]

Skyrim's like NWN in the sense that it's basically a big dev kit for modders
it's got a base game, that's like, kinda serviceable, but it's the modding community that makes it fun

Bethesda got lucky with Morrowind, probably because of kirkbride and co? Without that dude morrowind would have been just a big dev kit as well but with big mushrooms instead of snow
You're comparing it to things like Witcher 3, but Witcher 3 is actually a game. Skyrim is like, the skeleton of a game

 

[[UCHIHA]XxDarkSasuke420xX]

I still can't play New Vegas to this day because of how horrifying the visuals are, and no amount of visual mods can fix how ugly those games are because it's not just about the textures or models but the very structure of the world and how those things mash togheter which is amateurish to an astounding degree.

yeah I have the same problem the aesthetic of new vegas makes me want to puke, it's totally unplayable

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

Bitch Daggerfall had a killer atmosphere (...) insane dungeon sessions with a kick off ethereal ambiance.

I agree with "insane", but otherwise I don't know what you're talking about.

True sometimes the algorythmn was retarded but occationally the brokeness of it actually worked in its favor since you literally did not know what to expect.

m'kay.

And are you fucking serious by linking to the New Vegas quest chart who the fuck was talking about New Vegas? Did Bethesda make New Vegas?

Well, that's their engine and they're the publisher, and have no technical problem integrating something like that. Fallout 3 also* had decent sidequest design at times (meaning branching out/alternate solution), it's just the writing and setting were abysmal that they had to be horrible by default, and it was over before it began. EDITaybe it applies to Fallout 4, but iono, never really played it. Skyrim had pretty much only radiant quests, so it's only Oblivion that had truly shit quest design ("knowing I had no option, I refused" etc)

*I played it at first unironically with FWE around 2009, but the subsequent hate and cosmic horror is what pushed me into, among other things, Codex.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

You're comparing it to things like Witcher 3, but Witcher 3 is actually a game. Skyrim is like, the skeleton of a game

I was comparing it to Witcher 1 in terms of shit engine/gameplay. Speaking of TW3 however, after attempting to replay it with W3EE, the amount of jank in traversing the world just made me uninstall it lol. That and the thought of another hundred of hours+.

Skyrim's like NWN in the sense that it's basically a big dev kit for modders
it's got a base game, that's like, kinda serviceable, but it's the modding community that makes it fun

Bethesda got lucky with Morrowind, probably because of kirkbride and co? Without that dude morrowind would have been just a big dev kit as well but with big mushrooms instead of snow

No, Kirkbride just provided a metaphysical/"spiritual" backbone to it all, with meta shit like Vivec, his 36 lessons, Towers etc. It still remains the best fantasy setting, but I'd say Legacy of Kains/Nosgoth is a close follow-up.

Speaking of the first paragraph however, and backing up my previous sentence, a reminder that Wheels of Lull is both the best, and the most lore-friendly mod for TES there is.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Just like Elite, the sheer scale of Daggerfall adds to the atmosphere.

The concept of randomly generated content is controversial to be sure but Daggerfall made something compelling out it because there was no compromise, even when it was clear the scope of the game was larger than their ability to pull it off entirely.

Even if the algorythmn was sometimes retarded the dungeons in the game were truly imposing and for the most part they actually worked, offering hours of difficult and tense exploration.

Ho, and i also liked the character creation and leveling system, even though it was too easy to break the game with it (i preferred to create classes that purposedly made the game harder for me).

As far as i know, the lead of Daggerfall quit half-way during Morrowind's development and i can only imagine that's what started the pattern of dumbing shit down that is still going on today.

 

[[UCHIHA]XxDarkSasuke420xX]

No, Kirkbride just provided a metaphysical/"spiritual" backbone to it all, with meta shit like Vivec, his 36 lessons, Towers etc. It still remains the best fantasy setting, but I'd say Legacy of Kains/Nosgoth is a close follow-up.

Speaking of the first paragraph however, and backing up my previous sentence, a reminder that Wheels of Lull is both the best, and the most lore-friendly mod for TES there is.

yes but the 'backbone' is a core part of the world building and main story in morrowind. it ties everything together nicely like the rug in the dude's room. without kirkbride's contribution the world is just 'things' but he manages to breathe some life into it, which is lacking from other TES games

 

[anvi]

That's a nice rug. It would be a shame if something bad happened to it.

 

[[UCHIHA]XxDarkSasuke420xX]

Do NOT piss on my rug

 

[mogwaimon]

I still can't play New Vegas to this day because of how horrifying the visuals are, and no amount of visual mods can fix how ugly those games are because it's not just about the textures or models but the very structure of the world and how those things mash togheter which is amateurish to an astounding degree.

And are you fucking serious by linking to the New Vegas quest chart who the fuck was talking about New Vegas? Did Bethesda make New Vegas?

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

without kirkbride's contribution the world is just 'things' but he manages to breathe some life into it, which is lacking from other TES games

Kirkbride is still contributing into TES and was actively consulted at least in case of Skyrim*. Off the top of my head: Thalmor's endgame being to deactivate the remaining Towers and retcon Talos out of existence, in order to unmake the Wheel.

Mandatory C0DA shout out: https://www.c0da.es/c0da/provisional

*though I remember in Oblibun, he also wrote Mankar Camoran's books, and Pelinal being a cross between Gilgamesh and Terminator was also his.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I still can't play New Vegas to this day because of how horrifying the visuals are, and no amount of visual mods can fix how ugly those games are because it's not just about the textures or models but the very structure of the world and how those things mash togheter which is amateurish to an astounding degree.

And are you fucking serious by linking to the New Vegas quest chart who the fuck was talking about New Vegas? Did Bethesda make New Vegas?

I only mentioned New Vegas in relation to the parenthesis i had just opened on the technical aspects sucking on top of everything else.

I then returned to the primary subject when i said "those games". I couldn't possibly have been talking about New Vegas when talking about quest design because i just admited i never played it in the very first sentence.

Learn to read bro.

In fact i'll say that the shit Fallout 3 genetics bother me more in New Vegas precisely because i know for a fact the latter has some good things on it. It's one thing to eat pure shit as opposed to eating a tasty treat with shit in it, shit Obsidian weren't even responsible for. It just pissses me off.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

I still can't play New Vegas to this day because of how horrifying the visuals are, and no amount of visual mods can fix how ugly those games are because it's not just about the textures or models but the very structure of the world and how those things mash togheter which is amateurish to an astounding degree.

Em, nope, they totally can. You just need HD textures pack, removing piss filter, some stitches here and there, and game looks okay. Still ugly even for 2010, yes, but, well, remember that it was assembled in 18 months for the price of Cyberpunk2077's week budget for ads. The stories pay it all back.

Made a screen for you from my version:

 

[mogwaimon]

I still can't play New Vegas to this day because of how horrifying the visuals are, and no amount of visual mods can fix how ugly those games are because it's not just about the textures or models but the very structure of the world and how those things mash togheter which is amateurish to an astounding degree.

And are you fucking serious by linking to the New Vegas quest chart who the fuck was talking about New Vegas? Did Bethesda make New Vegas?

I only mentioned New Vegas in relation to the parenthesis i had just opened on the technical aspects sucking on top of everything else.

I then returned to the primary subject when i said "those games". I couldn't possibly have been talking about New Vegas when talking about quest design because i just admited i never played it in the very first sentence.

Learn to read bro.

I may be illiterate but the way I see it you cited New Vegas as an example of 'those games', went on to rant about Bethesda (rightly) being shit at what they do, and then getting mad when someone thought you were lumping New Vegas in with Bethesda games and responded as such, to which you said 'who the fuck was talking about New Vegas'

You. You were the one who brought New Vegas into the discussion. The only two games you specified in the original quoted post were Skyrim and New Vegas and then you went on to clarify in the second post that you only meant Oblivion, FO3, and Skyrim when you got called out on it

 

[Jugashvili]

Bethesda got lucky with Morrowind, probably because of kirkbride and co? Without that dude morrowind would have been just a big dev kit as well but with big mushrooms instead of snow

Morrowind wad successful because it was a labor of love. If you read interviews with former devs, there is one common theme: there came a point where they were completely invested in the world and would put in extra hours just to make it "feel right". One of them mentioned that even though the project's future was uncertain, he didn't really care any more whether or not it was published -- Vvardenfell had taken on a life of its own for them. It was a creative endeavor, not mercenary piece work.

Of course, they also mentioned that they put in way too much work -- more than was healthy or viable for a commercial project. The financial uncertainty that surrounded Beth at the time allowed them to take a gamble, and it paid off. It was, basically, a perfect storm of the right people in the right place at the right time.

Kirkbride is still contributing into TES and was actively consulted at least in case of Skyrim*. Off the top of my head: Thalmor's endgame being to deactivate the remaining Towers and retcon Talos out of existence, in order to unmake the Wheel.

Mandatory C0DA shout out: https://www.c0da.es/c0da/provisional

*though I remember in Oblibun, he also wrote Mankar Camoran's books, and Pelinal being a cross between Gilgamesh and Terminator was also his.

Kirk lost his spark after MW, though. Since then he's just been baiting nerds online and writing whatever Todd tells him to in a stilted and self-referential style. "Hey Mike, I need you to write me something to justify turning Cyrodiil into a generic European plain. Make it sound fancy and deep." "Sure thing Todd, how does 'Witness the home of the Red King Once Jungled' sound?" "That's just what I wanted. Ha! Who's laughing now?"

 

[Lyric Suite]

I still can't play New Vegas to this day because of how horrifying the visuals are, and no amount of visual mods can fix how ugly those games are because it's not just about the textures or models but the very structure of the world and how those things mash togheter which is amateurish to an astounding degree.

Em, nope, they totally can. You just need HD textures pack, removing piss filter, some stitches here and there, and game looks okay. Still ugly even for 2010, yes, but, well, remember that it was assembled in 18 months for the price of Cyberpunk2077's week budget for ads. The stories pay it all back.

Made a screen for you from my version:

View attachment 16671

I tried already. I followed that guide from Viva New Vegas to the letter, but nothing fixed the Bethesdaness. Like i said, it's not just about the details of textures it's everything, including the design of the terrain. 2010 shit i can mention way older games that did 3D landscapes better, starting with Gothic 2.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I may be illiterate but the way I see it you cited New Vegas as an example of 'those games'

No i didn't, i cited New Vegas to make a point that the visual aspects alone are so shit they prevented me from playing a game that actually has good content in it. New Vegas being an otherwise good game aside for the shit it inherited from Fallout 3 was sort of central to the point i was making.

But hey, maybe i did in fact fail to make that clear. So let me just precise my entire screech was against Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Skyrim.

 

[mogwaimon]

I may be illiterate but the way I see it you cited New Vegas as an example of 'those games'

No i didn't, i cited New Vegas to make a point that the visual aspects alone are so shit they prevented me from playing a game that actually has good content in it. New Vegas being an otherwise good game aside for the shit it inherited from Fallout 3 was sort of central to the point i was making.

But hey, maybe i did in fact fail to make that clear. So let me just precise my entire screech was against Oblivion, Fallout 3 and Skyrim.

well aight fair enough. i was kinda being a dick because I was bored, and I shouldn't have been so quick to pull a 'gotcha!' so...you know, sorry about that and all, it was on me