Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[IncendiaryDevice]

Pots and consumables generally are also highly demotivating in IE games because of the miserly inventory space. At least, the irrationality of a tiny potion taking up the same inventory space as a two-handed great axe. This is then combined with there being such a huge variety of potions, all of which come in across-game volumes of just 2 or 3.

It really is more convenient to simply sell everything apart from HP, and the odd random potion that's specifically useful to one character possibly once or twice, and then just play the game as if potions didn't exist, rather than spend the whole time in any dungeon bigger than a single cave rejuggling inventory every time you pick up a new whatever.

In the vanilla games this was made worse by gems not even having bags and also taking up an inventory slot & all of these types of items only having limited stacking.

 

[Grunker]

I like the way healing potions work in BG1 and 2, Cael. The low numbers of both heal pot and extraordinary heal pot mean they can give you that small extra bump you need to make it, but you can't depend on them.

In most games they're either utterly useless or you spam them as a core strategy. BG gives them minor use.

IncendiaryDevice bags help alot, but really the annoyance I find, is actually using them. In BG1 if you actually do spam and stack beneficial pots like Magic Blocking, Invulnerability and such, you can make difficult fights much, much easier. I find that to be both annoying UI-wise (waiting for rounds to use pots - like pre-buffing, but worse) and OP, though, even on an SCS-run.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Working forward from my experiences with vanilla IE games:

IWD didn't have any bags or containers IIRC, there were a few brought in by HoW. With regard to potions, the natural course of events in an IE game is to amble along and then suddenly be confronted by a battle of some kind. Because you never knew beforehand if the battle was going to be either trash-level easy, a moderate challenge or a reload-fest, pre-buffing was never really an option beyond the point when you'd already re-loaded. It's always a case of seeing how far you can get without activating anything, then possibly re-loading and doing just enough to see that encounter off - which most of the time is something like a specific spell or grabbing a rest or equipping a certain preferable weapon. It was only ever in multiple re-loads that consumables ever came into focus beyond healing of one form or another.

BG had this thing in vanilla, I don't know if it has ever been changed, where the game would cease pausing if you went into your inventory. Including in-battle. Making potions even more invalid as it limited you to just 3 potential potions per battle, and even less if you had things like wands or whatever in those slots. And one slot would be HP potions. The others, even at max, would likely be a strength potion of some kind and a random defensive of some kind. But, again, due to the nature of the IE gameplay, even these would never get used aside from reloads, apart from HPs of course.

By the time BG2 came around I should imagine most players were already very well trained in the art of ignoring potions. While the inventory was now fixed so as not to un-pause and while the game provided more bags to carry all the shit, it was still a finicky thing to perform a potion-based routine. You had all the huge increase in clicking to get to your potions from the depths of multiple bags, the clicks of then putting that into the quick-slot, and then finally using the potion in the heat of battle which, as you say, then requires all the irritation of IE's round-system to take effect. And, again, this is all only taking place during re-loaded encounters.

Had any of the IE games had a simple scrolling quick items bar instead of a hard limit of three, to which this bar didn't effect inventory space, then I suspect potions would form a bigger part of many people's playstyle and experience. Had the game been designed around finding the right potions before the right battles and got the player used to the idea of potions being a designed-for pre-battle reward in a puzzle-game like way then I suspect potions would have been a bigger part of most people's playstyle and experience. The best example of this last point would be the fire potions you need to destroy trolls in IWD, but I'd be hard-pressed to remember any other instances across all the IE games beyond HP pots as rewards after a fight.

As it turned out, potions in IE games are like crafting in Dragon Age games. They're not needed, they kinda-possibly give you some benefits, but the effort involved in investigating that angle of the game simply isn't worth the effort versus the reward.

 

[Cael]

I like the way healing potions work in BG1 and 2, Cael. The low numbers of both heal pot and extraordinary heal pot mean they can give you that small extra bump you need to make it, but you can't depend on them.

In most games they're either utterly useless or you spam them as a core strategy. BG gives them minor use.

You can't spam them in BG, unless I am mistaken. They are one per round, which means that you are likely to be healing less than what the enemy is doing to you. A losing proposition. The number of times I saw an enemy quaff a pot only to fall dead a second later is still hilarious after all these years.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

I like the way healing potions work in BG1 and 2, Cael. The low numbers of both heal pot and extraordinary heal pot mean they can give you that small extra bump you need to make it, but you can't depend on them.

In most games they're either utterly useless or you spam them as a core strategy. BG gives them minor use.

You can't spam them in BG, unless I am mistaken. They are one per round, which means that you are likely to be healing less than what the enemy is doing to you. A losing proposition. The number of times I saw an enemy quaff a pot only to fall dead a second later is still hilarious after all these years.

You can spam pots of extra healing. You can also spam regular healing by disengaging and doing the run-around. Though the latter probably suggests you're not really levelled enough for that area yet and are just trying to force it anyway.

 

[Cael]

I like the way healing potions work in BG1 and 2, Cael. The low numbers of both heal pot and extraordinary heal pot mean they can give you that small extra bump you need to make it, but you can't depend on them.

In most games they're either utterly useless or you spam them as a core strategy. BG gives them minor use.

You can't spam them in BG, unless I am mistaken. They are one per round, which means that you are likely to be healing less than what the enemy is doing to you. A losing proposition. The number of times I saw an enemy quaff a pot only to fall dead a second later is still hilarious after all these years.

You can spam pots of extra healing. You can also spam regular healing by disengaging and doing the run-around. Though the latter probably suggests you're not really levelled enough for that area yet and are just trying to force it anyway.

That is new to me. As I said before, I don't use pots or any other consumable, actually. Been like that for all RPGs I've ever played, be it computer or TT. Even games like Fallout Tactics, where you HAD to use ammo, I use the bare minimum with aimed shots and punching unconscious enemies to death. Burst shots makes me want to cry at the waste...

 

[Grunker]

Not sure I understand your reply, Cael. Can't spam what? Healing potions? No, that's exactly what I'm saying?

Have no idea why ID is claiming otherwise. Drinking a potion works like casting a spell - you can't initiate other actions (except attacking and moving obviously) after drinkring a potion until the round is over.

 

[Xeon]

Yeah, Potions are pretty op in BG1 especially, even if you can't spam drinking healing potions, you could go invisible and heal up, don't think there are any in BG1 that could find you I think. Potion of Mirrored Eyes is very useful against Aec'Letec since he uses gaze to turn you into a ghoul or something and kills you.

Pretty good in BG2 as well but casters almost always dispel them.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Not sure I understand your reply, Cael. Can't spam what? Healing potions? No, that's exactly what I'm saying?

Have no idea why ID is claiming otherwise. Drinking a potion works like casting a spell - you can't initiate other actions (except attacking and moving obviously) after drinkring a potion until the round is over.

I guess you'll have to qualify 'spamming' then, because, by the nature of D&D the enemy doesn't hit you every round, so as long as you're not being hit every round then spamming healing is possible, if by spamming you mean standing there and mixing chugging with hitting until the enemy is dead. If you're chugging for more than you're being hit, you can stand there indefinitely until you run out of potions. Alternatively, you can run-away, have someone else take the agro, re-heal via spamming hps.

 

[Grunker]

I mean keep chugging with no delay. You can't keep:

chugging for more than you're being hit

In most of BG and BG2, especially not on SCS, since heal pots in 70%+ of the game does not heal nearly the same amounts you will be taking damage. In general, of course. As with everything else, there are exceptions.

Relying on heal pots to carry you through BGs is not a great strategy. But they are *helpful* for big chunks of the game. I think that's a pretty good balance.

Xeon yeah completely agree

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Yeah, I wasn't talking about SCS.

But, yeah, no delay, obviously, doesn't exist in IE games, though my experience was that the first chugg was usually relatively instantaneous.

 

[Grunker]

It's instantaneous if you do it while attacking. If you just cast a spell it's not.

Rounds work a bit weirdly in the IE-games in that attacks and all other actions are seperate in a lot of ways. You can cast a spell and instantly start attacking, or attack, chug a pot, attack.

But if you chug a pot, you can't initiate spellcasting or use a wand or whatever else until your next round begins and vice versa.

 

[hell bovine]

I never bothered with the EE's because of all the SJW pandering, are they actually worth buying ? I wasn't the biggest fan of the BG games but I thought they were alright and def worth a playthrough or 2 back in the day.

Depends on what you want from the games. I prefer the original BG2, because it is compatible with all the mods I want. But for BG1 I'd go with the EE, because my last few attempts at BGTutu and BGT ended up very buggy. However, since BWS dropped the support for the originals, if you want a big mod install the EEs might be the easier choice.

As for writing, this is limited to the new npcs, and you can deal with them same way as you would with disliked npcs in the original. E.g. by feeding them to basilisks. I actually liked the cheesy drow sorcerer, though.

I'm a big Hard Times fan in theory but I'm not really a fan of the actual implementation. I would greatly enjoy a mod that simply added its price changes but didn't touch magic items.

IIRC, it's quite easy to modify the Hard Times's .tp2 to remove the stuff you don't want. He commented his code and the changes are done in sections.

The optional Ulcaster School mage is a good example of the mod creator being a classic modder - you had to install Hard Times to install that component, despite the fact there are no dependencies. You can comment out the requirement in the tp2 and install it by itself if you want.

I'm already bogged down trying to fix some weird, inexplicable Saving Throw discrepancies in my game, I don't think I want to mess with more editing.

fyi, there is a recently discovered issue with saving throws which existed ever since the original games. Apparently BG2 deals with non-mage kits by treating them as specialist mages in regards to saving throws. So a berserker will get the specialist bonus to saving throws against certain spell effects, whether against a spell, or an item ability.

 

[Cael]

Yeah, I wasn't talking about SCS.

But, yeah, no delay, obviously, doesn't exist in IE games, though my experience was that the first chugg was usually relatively instantaneous.

Still, 9hp isn't going to be helpful, especially in IWD2 with 3.x's HP bloat. It might help after the combat to top you off, but not during. But then, when you are playing with 3 clerics and a bard in IWD2, you don't need pots to top off after combat :D

 

[laclongquan]

It is helpful for level 8 and lesser. You dont have enough HP or cleric spell slot without it.

I speak of IWD2 alone, of course. Also highest diff but not heart of fury.

At 8- level, your cleric has too much need for buff slot to have spare for healing. Not if you want to fight the 2nd battle before rest (4 aid spell, Prayer, Strength).

SO normal healing potion or extra healing still worth taking action.

 

[Grunker]

hell bovine: thx, but apparantly the saving throw discrepancies is from Spell Revisions. The mod changes all ST tables but it's undocumented. The changes are good though, IMO.

 

[hell bovine]

Grunker Ah yes, I've tried it some time ago (combined with SCS). It was fun at lower levels, but at epic levels it was... a mixed bag. E.g. demons having a chance to attack the caster was a throwback to vanilla BG2, where liches would get eaten by their own pit fiends.

 

[Grunker]

I'll cross that bridge when I get to it

 

[agris]

SR always struck me as too much "Modder" and that it would make the game easier rather than harder.

 

[Grunker]

Hope that's not the case, and if it is, well I learned not to use it again.

Haste has been nerfed though. Gives +2 THAC0 and AC now, but single target and only affects 1 creature.

 

[agris]

Hope that's not the case, and if it is, well I learned not to use it again.

Haste has been nerfed though. Gives +2 THAC0 and AC now, but single target and only affects 1 creature.

Once you've got an opinion one way or another, drop back and tell us what you think about SR. Are you playing a caster-heavy party? I assume yes~

edit: are you using SR v3 or v4? saw your post on G3.

 

[Grunker]

My party is far from optimised (purposefully, among other things I wanted to test out monk from BG through ToB and wanted to test the new kits as well). Current party:

1. Dwarven Defender (will dual to Cleric @ 15)
2. Blackguard
3. Monk
4. Shaman
5. Wild Mage
6. Sorcerer

I probably won't change the composition much if at all throughout the games.

So far I like most of the revisions since besides Haste it seems the changes are focused on making useless spells at least somewhat interesting rather than the reverse. The changes to the saving throw tables seem very sensible.

I really dislike the Haste change though - wouldn't necessarily have minded a nerf, but with no AoE it's a big QoL feature gone from the games.

 

[agris]

So saves are altered for all classes, but the dynamic saving throw penalties from high-level casters are now capped at -4? Were class-based saving throws made universally lower or high (easier/harder), or are classes now rebalanced from a ST perspective?

From a numerical point of view, it seems a bit of a mess. You're changing the offset AND the baseline at the same time. One would expect changing one or the other to be more elegant, unless you want to change the relative saving throws between classes. TBH, I haven't looked at SR since ~2011 or so though, and from my brief dive into their forums, my former assumptions could be totally wrong now.

So please do let us know what you think about it.

 

[Grunker]

Saving Throws are penalized (i.e. "higher"), so harder. Hence why I liked the changes. Spells that require saves are at least worth consideration now. A few here and there were buffed, though, like thieves getting improved Breath saves since Breath is now the "Reflex Save" and applies to Web, for instance.

I don't see why you'd change either one or the other? For all the nonsense in AD&D, Saving Throw tables competed for the top spots of awkward design. Besides making spells that allowed for saves fairly poor fairly fast due to the unequal progression (i.e. defenses improving at a fast rate while offense doesn't improve at all except if a particular spell penalizes saves), Saving Throws in the negatives with no Fumbles meant at some point most IE-characters auto-save all the time. I believe in SR a 1 will always fail.

So yeah, so far my only criticism is the Haste spell and the incredible lack of documentation: almost everything in the ReadMe is utterly outdated.

However I don't really feel like I can say anything about the mod really yet. The true test comes in BG2.

 

[Grunker]

A little update from my Spell Revisions playthrough. Still haven't found any changes I actively dislike, though I can see the Monster Summoning changes being controversial. Monster Summoning played a role before as hit point clusters for you, but they weren't that useful for the enemy. With Revised SCS, that has changed majorly as enemy casters summon Ogres in your backline, and even though those are no problem in isolation for a 7th+ level party, they're a major hassle in a big fight because you can't just ignore them.

The one thing I'm still undetermined on is Haste. I haven't hated not spamming it as much I thought I would, since Boots of Speed have helped me keep up the QoL, and I often end up casting it on my DD and Blackguard where it is most important (as seen by my Sorcerer's stats below). And it's kind of nice having to change tactics since you're not always blazing fast, I guess.

But if you are addicted to that fast movement that constant Hasting normally provided, this is certainly different.

My Blackguard is the clear MVP killing wise which goes without saying (Dual Wield and possibly the only sort-of optimised character in my party save the Sorcerer, though he is using Bastard Swords rather than Long Swords), but in major battles the Dwarven Defender pulls some serious weight. I have him on Throwing Hammer duty to minimize the downside of being almost stationary when in Defensive Stance, and it works really well. The Monk is certainly not pulling his weight, even when I tested him with the EE exploit of throwing a weapon in his off-hand (if you do this in EE, he retains his fist attacks and gets the extra off hand attack with the weapon - though obviously with big penalties since you can't give Monks TWF). The Shaman doesn't feel that different to Druid, though I'm sure his ability to cast Lesser Restoration will come in handy in BG2 considering I won't have a Cleric for a looooong while. I like the new Call Lightning as well - it's a decent compromise between the limited but powerful old version and just outright nerfing it. Still feels very potent and takes long to cast. It's my first tour with a Wild Mage and it's actually not that noticable. Once in a while you get some minor effect and only three or four times has it actually impacted a battle majorly. I had a Cowkill once - poor Niemann took one to the face. Another time I got double hit points when I was otherwise about to lose. And once I miscast the "winning" spell, forcing a reload. The Sorcerer of course is just pure gas, nothing much up there.

Currently beneath Candlekeep, will soon be done with BG1 and moving on to my first real SoD playthrough.

Most annoying thing about my party is the lack of autohealing on rest. I feel like I've cast assorted Regenerate spells a million times now

Here are some stats:

Dwarven Defender

Spoiler

Blackguard

Spoiler

Sun Soul Monk

Spoiler

Shaman

Spoiler

Wild Mage

Spoiler

Sorcerer

Spoiler