Bard's Tale The Bard's Tale IV Pre-Release Thread [RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Zeriel]

Yeah, but in that case he was pandering to another grog audience that was basically the evolution of what Wasteland started.

By the way, I'm not saying pandering to casuals is bad (CDProjekt does this, and I like their games), or that not pandering to grogs is bad, either. Just that I don't think he's going to do a good job of either. I want to be wrong about this, though. I would love to see another playable (i.e, not real time dancefest ala Grimrock) blobber on the horizon.

Well, we already know that it's not going to be real-time. I think people are getting the wrong ideas about this project from one quote without taking in the totality of everything that's been said up until now.

I'm aware. I'm just in the same boat as Crooked Bee: I really, really like grids, and don't think their kneejerk removal in the pursuit of "immersion" is a good idea in what is already a very niche genre.

Time will tell, though, I'll definitely play (and buy!) the game if it's any good.

 

[Lady_Error]

Wizardry is a good example of a series that wasn't ruined by the advent of analog movement. (If you disagree, let's hear it: what was lost exactly?)

Step-based movement is a good abstraction that makes the experience more dreamlike while FPS-style movement creates a different atmosphere. The exploration is different and more abstract with a grid layout, so you use your imagination more - which actually creates more immersion.

Though I guess not everyone can get into that kind of game.

 

[vonAchdorf]

I like grid-based movement when it comes to dungeons, it seems "natural" there. The abstraction also helps with navigation if you don't want to refer to the map all the time. In an overworld, not so much – it often feels forced, especially in expansive spaces.

 

[Lady_Error]

I don't know, walking in steps through forests and open spaces in MMX feels natural to me.

Even in real life you take steps, instead of floating around evenly.

 

[vonAchdorf]

I don't know, walking in steps through forests and open spaces in MMX feels natural to me.

Even in real life you take steps, instead of floating around evenly.

Yes, but I think in games, we don't expect real life equivalency, but a "camera" view.

In the Realms of Arcania trilogy you had the development from grid-based over free in a grid-based world (grid-based toggleable) to free in a not so grid-based world. And I have to admit that I cannot say which of the modes I preferred.

 

[Zombra]

Step-based movement is a good abstraction that makes the experience more dreamlike while FPS-style movement creates a different atmosphere. The exploration is different and more abstract with a grid layout, so you use your imagination more - which actually creates more immersion. Though I guess not everyone can get into that kind of game.

Obviously I don't feel the same way, but this is an excellent and valid answer. Thanks.

 

[Metro]

Hey phag-mos, how 'bout we keep the Bard's Tale series like... you know... the Bard's Tale series and not make it into Wizardry or Fallout 2 or whatever. Jesus fuck, what's wrong with you people?

HAI GUIZ I GOTZ A GR8 IDEARZ HOW BOUT WE MAKE FALLOUT SERIEZ INTO FPS!

 

[Metro]

Brofisted by Bee a true honor. Anyway, yeah... I can't stand fucking RtWP but I don't try to take that genre away from you icky freaks who enjoy it. I just denounce it as crap and move on. You don't have to like grid based blobbers, but you also don't have to pee in the pool of those that do. Unfortunately Fargo seems intent on loading up on the Sunny D before he dips into the deep end.

 

[Lord Andre]

In my opinion the genre should do away with grid movement and start using 3d space to its full potential. Unfortunately the only games that do this correctly is Gothic 1 and 2 and Risen 1. All other first-person games design maps in 2d even though the game is 3d. So if they plan on using 3d to it's full potential than fuck grid-based movement, else if they're making grid paper maps with 3d graphics then who gives a shit...

Turn based combat is still the monocled way to go though, without that I'll probably just throw in 15 bucks to the kickstarter to get the game cheap.

On a more subjective note, I could never understand the nostalgia for really old blobbers. To me those games had the gameplay depth of a puddle of piss. I know the cliche "old games did it like that because of technology limitations" is popamole bullshit propaganda but even a broken clock is right twice-a-day.

 

[Infinitron]

Gothic 1 and 2 and Risen 1. All other first-person games

Not sure if Lady Error joke

 

[Zeriel]

Someone needs to put together a video of Demise gameplay with a short, succint explanation of why grid-based gameplay has mechanical advantages so we don't have to write an essay on it every time someone wants to argue that grid-based is an out-dated technological restriction with no design merits.

I wonder if designers really believe this stuff or if its just a case of market demand.

 

[Lord Andre]

Gothic 1 and 2 and Risen 1. All other first-person games

Not sure if Lady Error joke

Nope. I actually believe those 3 games had maps that used 3d space creatively as opposed to the table cloth design of similar open world games.

I do consider Lady Error a dumbfuck...if that counts.

Zeriel: I would love to hear an explanation of why grid based movement is superior that is based on gameplay mechanics and not "feelz". I don't have much of a stake in the matter so I am genuinely curious.

 

[Infinitron]

Whoosh

 

[Lord Andre]

Whoosh

Oh, I remember now, is Lady Error the one that claimed Gothics are FPS games ? Yeah, I meant FPS games as in games where you explore the world from a "personal" perspective as opposed to a tactical zoomed out view. It doesn't matter to me if the camera is actually first person or over-the-shoulder/ 3rd person.

Now I see how my original post made for a nice stab at Lady Error in context...I should have taken the credit.

 

[Mortmal]

Don't care if its free roaming or grid based both works, whats important is how tactical the combat will be, wastelands 2 had not nearly enough options . Also will it support .adf files so I can import my amiga saves from bard's tales 3 ?

 

[Zombra]

Hey phag-mos, how 'bout we keep the Bard's Tale series like... you know... the Bard's Tale series and not make it into Wizardry or Fallout 2 or whatever. Jesus fuck, what's wrong with you people?

What's "wrong" with me is that I don't consider gridlock to be an essential part of the series, but instead something that happened. For the third time, Wizardry 8 didn't ruin the Wizardry series by going gridless; it didn't "turn into" a different series; it just gained finer movement control. I'm ready to listen to arguments to the contrary but there don't seem to be any.

I really don't see why you complain about fine movement but don't complain about resolutions higher than 320x200. If you're a fan of antiquated aesthetics, what's the diff? Why aren't you arguing for a tiny perspective window and tons of wasted screen estate?

ONLY TINY SCREEN DO NOT MAKE MY PRECIOUS INTO SOMETHING NICE TO LOOK AT

 

[Dorateen]

It'll be Might & Magic 6-9 with better graphics and some innovative Hearthstone-inspired combat mechanics.

I could live with that.

But regarding the question about the advantages of grid-based movement based on gameplay mechanics, the obvious answer is mapping, for starters.

 

[octavius]

No, wait, grid grid-based games sucked, right? Is that the correct conclusion?

The grid doesn't automatically make any game suck, but it isn't central or necessary to any game as some people insist. Wizardry is a good example of a series that wasn't ruined by the advent of analog movement. (If you disagree, let's hear it: what was lost exactly?) Bard's Tale will survive it too.

Wiz 8 is the only Wizardry I have not played, but I can imagine it being hard to make mapping challenges. Mapping challenges is the one thing that makes blobbers one of my favourite genres (the abstract combat is also better than most top down combat systems). But mapping challenges were mostly gone by Wiz 7 anyway, which relied more on Adventure type puzzles and an excessive amount of combat (still a great game, though).

There are pros and cons to both grid based and freeform systems, and they differ in which challenges they can provide.

 

[Zombra]

Mapping challenges is the one thing that makes blobbers one of my favourite genres

I cheerfully concede that grids and mapping go hand in hand. And it's OK if that's your thing. Personally, after doing office work for 20 years, I no longer enjoy the busywork part of games that can be done better by a computer. Look at thing, write down thing, look at thing, write down thing ... just doesn't do it for me. Now that I think back, even in the day I only mapped in games when I absolutely had to. Usually I would get through dungeons and so forth by learning them in my head. No grid required for that.

But if real life mapping by hand defines the Bard's Tale series for anyone, then yes, that's a valid reason to prefer the grid. I kind of doubt that making the player do this kind of work is what Fargo has in mind.

 

[FeelTheRads]

What does free look really does for you in a game where you're mostly looking at square corridors? Would the old games have been better with free look? I'm asking because I've seen you cheer several times the fact that this game won't be gridbased like it's something that kills games.

 

[Caconym]

In my opinion the genre should do away with grid movement and start using 3d space to its full potential. Unfortunately the only games that do this correctly is Gothic 1 and 2 and Risen 1.

You mean the resourceful, inventive use of the world geometry and the vertical aspect? The Souls games do that beautifully as well. I know, I know – and agree –, they're not real RPGs...

 

[Crooked Bee]

Real-time / RTwP is the natural evolution of turn-based with finer movement and combat control so I hope Fargo just goes all the way in the direction of updating Bard's Tale for the new audience.

 

[Zombra]

What does free look really does for you in a game where you're mostly looking at square corridors? Would the old games have been better with free look? I'm asking because I've seen you cheer several times the fact that this game won't be gridbased like it's something that kills games.

For me, it makes me feel more like "I am there" ... yes, immersion is a bad word around here for some reason, so I guess I am a bad person for liking it. And yeah, I think the old games would have been better with freelook/move.

I do not believe that restricted movement was a "feature" back in the day - again, it was just something that happened. No one said, there's this cool series of games, the camera shows the perspective of the heroes, and best of all you can only walk at 90° angles. You didn't run to your friends and say you need to check this out, it's unrealistic, more like walking on a chessboard than on normal ground. Even now you wouldn't say that - you'd just say this is neat, it's like something from the past.

Real-time / RTwP is the natural evolution of turn-based with finer movement and combat control so I hope Fargo just goes all the way in the direction of updating Bard's Tale for the new audience.

Interesting reductio, but I don't see how it applies, because RTWP reduces combat control. Unless you're suggesting that grid movement gives you more control.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Real-time / RTwP is the natural evolution of turn-based with finer movement and combat control so I hope Fargo just goes all the way in the direction of updating Bard's Tale for the new audience.

Interesting reductio, but I don't see how it applies, because RTWP reduces combat control. Unless you're suggesting that grid movement gives you more control.

Point is not which of those gives you more control (although Durante for one would disagree with your basic premise about RTWP reducing combat control), but that both are completely different (discrete vs continuous) systems that require equally different approaches to basic combat design in the first place. And just like in case of TB vs RTwP, neither discrete nor continous exploration is a mere update of the other.

Since you fail to see how the abstract, "node"-based exploration is a completely different design compared to continuous, free movement exploration, with neither being reducible to the other, I'm comparing you to people who fail to see how turn-based combat is anything other than an outdated version of RTwP that brings nothing distinct to the table. (Your own opinion on whether TB is better or not does not have any relevance to my comparison.)

I do not believe that restricted movement was a "feature" back in the day - again, it was just something that happened. No one said, there's this cool series of games, the camera shows the perspective of the heroes, and best of all you can only walk at 90° angles. You didn't run to your friends and say you need to check this out, it's unrealistic, more like walking on a chessboard than on normal ground. Even now you wouldn't say that - you'd just say this is neat, it's like something from the past.

I do not believe that turn-based combat was a feature back in the day - again, it was just something that happened. No one said, there's this cool series of game, the camera shows the perspective of the heroes, and best of all you can only move or attack one character at a time while other characters pause and wait until you complete your action. You didn't run to your friends and say you need to check this out, it's unrealistic, more like fighting on a chessboard than on normal ground or in normal time. Even now you wouldn't say that - you'd just say this is neat, it's like something from the past.

 

[ArchAngel]

I don't want BT4 to be like Grimrock, I hate blobbes with real time combat