The Codex of Roguelikes

I wouldn't wind so much if bucklers weren't so inherently worthless. You need at least ~20 SH to have a chance at blocking anything even early game, and bucklers give only 5 base for normal characters. Unless you're a spriggan or kobold and can leverage your size in combination with the dex skew on them, bucklers are utterly worthless for anything but resists.

 

Well, normal sized shields also happen, but I minded cause I was playing a unarmed draconian transmuter, and shields reduce the damage (or speed?) of unarmed combat greatly.

 

Speed I think. Though doesn't blade hands/spider/ice form meld the shield anyways? The only one it'd fuck up is statue, which is awful anyways.

 

CataclysmDA now has experimental z-levels

 

Yeah, saw that mod in the mod manager in experimental version. Any opinion on it? Which buildings have the z-levels? Do the levels interact with the rest of the map or are they like basements, which stop time on the level 0 when you are in them. And, can you look thtough a window on level 5 and see more thanks to that?

 

It's pretty much like the underground levels. Activity stops on other levels, but alerted monsters can follow you up stairs, and they can fall down and die.

After a year of no progress on the "ideal z-levels" front (understandable, it's a very hard project), it's hoped that merging this spur people to improve it

 

For all the years I have been playing CRPGs, I have never played a roguelike. I have played games that are definitely inspired by them,but nothing that reaches a lot of these games "hardcore level."

What would you guys recommend as a good "starting point" game to get into the genre?

 

A good starting point for roguelikes?

Otherwise, read this: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/list-of-the-must-play-games.55367/

 

TOME is pretty good and accessible too.

 

Crawl has a nice tutorial and interface; though it's also hilariously unfair in the early levels where new players are likely to be stuck in a lot anyways.

ToME is a lot easier, but also defies most roguelike conventions to some degree, so it's not exactly a good representation of them.

Nethack would probably be pretty good if you really want to get into the genre, there's been some new spinoffs lately that improve the UI to make things more readable. I don't think any have added auto explore yet though, so you'll have to get by without that. Though Nethack levels are small enough that you don't need it anyways imo.

I'm also fond of DoomRL but it's rather odd for a roguelike as well; since it doesn't have an identification metagame and the weapons are mostly ranged. It also has some strange combat mechanics like blindly shooting around corners. It has different difficulty settings though, which is nice.

 

I've been really loving ToME 4. Pretty accessible I think.

 

Oooh yeah, DoomRL is also real good. If you cannot into TOME for whatever reason, try that one too.

 

Brogue.

 

ADOM has some sort of graphical version. I have played ASCII version and it was great. Learning curve is not so difficult, after an hour with game and some manual you will know 90% of features.

 

I think CDDA would probably be the easiest to get into.

The setting is near-future, items do what you expect, there are no potions or scrolls to laboriously identify, enemies don't get harder with time, etc

 

Nonsense. ToME is neither easier (try getting a cursed class character to level 40 and we'll talk) nor does it defy any "conventions". ToME was easier some time ago (before version 1.0 I guess), but I would say that at this point it is only easier in the first dungeon. After that, I die about as often as in any other roguelike.
It is easier accessible as it offers an actual freakin interface and controls that have evolved beyond "each key on the keyboard has a vital function so you better learn them all". If you are one of those "mouse is for retards" purists, well, whatever, but I am certainly not.
You might be talking about the "fact" that a character in ToME is not permanently lost after one death. But that can be changed when starting a game to be one life only. The default setting is called adventure mode where you start with 3 lives (I think) and get a new life every 10 levels or so. I play both modes, whatever I fancy when starting a new game. There is also a mode with unlimited lives.
This does not defy anything, it offers more options.

And besides, it is the best looking roguelike out there (among those with tile graphics, that is) with some pretty good music and sound effects.

All of that said, if you want a more classical approach to get started, Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is always fun.

 

I was more referring to the fact that your abilities operate on cooldowns (which other roguelikes do this? I can only think of Slash'EM, and that was only a few things) your consumables aren't consumables, you have no inventory management to speak of, and yeah, having 3 (which quickly baloons into 5 or more as you level) lives makes it much easier to get by the early game. It also gives you full stats on your enemies in game, has no food clock (or any other kind of clock) and no enemy respawn at all, which is also unusual.

If you think all that shit is normal you haven't played many roguelikes.

 

I have played all roguelikes (well, all that I know of, which probably is almost all).
And all the things you list there are utterly unimportant for classification of roguelike or not.

What has cooldown or not to do with anything? It is different, sure, but I do not see where roguelike is defined by having cooldowns or not. ToME has a LOAD of other requirements. There are.. how many? 3? 4? 5? different stats that work like mana that you have to take care of. Though mostly "only" 3-4 of them at once.
There are only very few consumables, yes. But again, so what?
There is not much inventory management, that is true. There is a weight limit, of course, but I think I never reached it. And loot only serves to generate gold (well that which you do not use).

It is certainly no classical roguelike like ADOM, but it is a full roguelike no less.

 

I still haven't played a lot of ToME, but the low to non-existent threat from unnamed monsters is a big turnoff after playing Crawl... makes me feel like I'm back in WoW, pointlessly grinding through trash mobs.

 

ToME doesn't have consumables, it has rechargable potion equivalent ability things. There is like 1 item in the whole game that could be considered a consumable, and it has such a pain in the ass requirement to get that you'll probably never see it. And it doesn't have a weight limit because everything you pick up goes in your bottomless bag of holding chest, the only weight limit is on stuff you decide to keep, which is mostly going to be rings and infusions that weigh nothing anyways.

These things don't disqualify it from being a roguelike, but they're so different from most others that it makes it a poor entry point. It's like someone wanting to be an artist and recommending to them that they learn sculpting instead of how to draw. Playing ToME will teach you very, very little about how to play any other roguelike.

 

Starting zone monsters might be cannon-fodder, but once you get past the early game, even "common" monsters become rather dangerous.

 

I guess I can agree with that. It is different.

PS: Your analogy is flawed as artists do learn to sculpt (basics, of course) during artist educations (at least all I know - those in Germany) as it is considered a vital basis for anatomy and spatial sense. Most that want to become artists of course only want to learn Photoshop and not the actual basics taht are required to get good at anything.

 

They might learn to sculpt eventually, but I doubt they start with it unless that is what they had in mind to begin with (and even then you'd probably want to learn how to draw as well.) I think it's a good analogy. Most roguelikes involve long term management of consumables, risk of unidentified equipment or consumables, inventory space/weight management (do I haul around this armour until I can identify/sell it or leave it alone so I can carry more food?), a hunger clock and respawning enemies. ToME won't teach you how to deal with any of that.

 

Are you actually suggesting that the potion management and inventory management are cornerstones of the genre? They're borderline bad design. Remember how in Diablo 1 you had instant health potions and Diablo 2 did away with that? Yeah because chugging potions to turn a fight of your choice into a "lol free win" is dumb.

If I had never been told TOME was a roguelike, I still would've identified it as such, the threat of dying at any moment because you slip up and the need to constantly "build" your future one problem solved at a time is still there. The lack of a clock is also tempered by the lack of respawning enemies, you can't ding it on both counts, makes no sense.

And it actually has infinite enemies if you go in the optional far portals. Every time there's a conversation about TOME you have all these wrong impressions of it because you barely played it, I really don't understand why you're so keen to impress your poorly thought out opinions on others.

For a first roguelike, I'd actually recommend Spelunky. It has every convention of the genre and is a great game to boot, easy to get into, though it's real time.