From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[sgc_meltdown]

I believe Kaizo mario was balanced around savestates. Imagine if that was a hacked pirate kart sold on the cheap back before emulators, children would have gone berserk.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

And maybe I didn't get something? There is indeed nothing at stake in roguelikes, maybe you start over or not, maybe you cheat. It does not matter in the least, you'll beat the game if you want to or do something else. Or let's put it this way. There are consequences, but they don't matter to anybody else than the player, so it does not matter if he chooses to cheat at them.

I know you're not truly this dense. When people talk about consequences in a game they're talking about consequences IN A GAME. Nobody is ever talking about a game that somehow causes consequences in the real world.

Of course I don't mean that. Well I haven't been clear enough I suppose. I'll try to explain just once more. So a save system might force you to continue on with what you get, or restart if you have the time and patience. Or you can cheat, and since you play against nobody, it matters to you alone. Nothing can force you to "live with the consequences" if you don't like them 'cept your desire to play fair, and what that means is personal. So while it's likely there's a guy here who each and every time one party member dies by accident just picks up his stuff and takes a 10 min detour and pays 1000gp for the spell to resurrect him, there's also probably someone who just quickloads every time and never uses resurrection spells. If that's an exploit, it doesn't even matter, that's why I'm saying there's nothing at stake, you can't win anything and can't beat anybody. You just play in whatever way pleases you since nothing's stopping you from playing Iron Man with standard save system.

I just don't see the advantage in not having the option to save normally.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

F5/F6 saving style is pretty much godmode, I don't understand why people like it.

Well if you tend to play like that I can understand why you'd like checkpoints. Additionally you could as well say that any saving system other than iron man is god mode.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Perhaps it would be better to think of it in versus fighter terms, except this is player versus dungeon with between-checkpoint round time. Yes I know I'm stretching the analogy here. How little satisfaction would there be if you could save-reload in a versus fighter? Now compare that satisfaction to being able to clear a dungeon portion successfully. I keep hearing the euphoria from beating the game on your own terms draws a lot of first time players back to the game.

You're probably focusing all your thoughts on convenience and how this game is going to suck because you can't save and not the possibility of you being taken with the concept once you've tried it. Sure, it's up to you to ruin the game for yourself if that's what you want, but the souls series has been designed around tough love, the process of learning what to do against each enemy, the need for constant wariness and challenges that you die to due to your own misjudgment, not for example 'hahaha unskippable cutscene that gives enemies two rounds of initiative' like that bit in Knights of the Chalice where you just throw up your hands and go whelp I know that's coming now.

If it matters that much for you and the satisfaction I mentioned doesn't count then this game isn't for you, simple as that. That doesn't invalidate the design methodlogy, and you still haven't said anything about the comparisons to Diablo 2's system. Again: This is not about the convenience of reloading. The idea of losing in a game just kills it for you, because you think losing without being able to reload immediately permanently stains your experience.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

A better example would be some Metal Slug ports I have played that have infinite continues and thus don't have gameplay, but they are entirely different types of a game, short and sweet. Tournament fighters don't have SP satisfaction in my opinion fucker AI reacting perfectly to every button press until you find it's pattern

But see, in any emulator you can find there are save states. Haven't ruined a single game for me, even while at times I just save right before a difficult boss because my patience has run out and the outcome of the pre-boss sequence is always the same.

And I don't think the game is going to suck, I'm just trying to make an argument here. That sort of learning what to do, trial-by-death stuff only works in games with very short levels in my mind. Otherwise it get's irritating because you make a mistake, then you just think about the length of the sequence ahead, not it's difficulty or how to beat it. I can take that, I have had so many friggin' consoles in my life. Yet I always wish I could just save before the boss.

And the comparison to Diablo 2. I don't know how you play that game but I always throw a TP just as I'm dying or before a tough fight. So the time to get to your corpse is something like ten seconds, and there are no respawning enemies. Note that at this point I don't know how long it usually takes to get to where you were in DS or indeed if it has a portal spell or something, I have only watched parts of some playthrough and it anyway seemed like the person playing isn't good at action games so he was just constantly running some ~3 minutes from a bonfire to a boss encounter... I just want to try at the boss again, hacking at some zombies I killed already to get there just kills the excitement for me.

 

[praetor]

^the levels aren't exactly short, most of the time (there are some really short ones, though) but there are enough shortcuts to unlock that most of the time (if you know your way around the level, which isn't that hard to do since they're aren't that complicated) you can run from a bonfire to the boss in a minute or so and ignore all the enemies (they can't follow you to the boss room (except for one particular case, but you really want to kill those enemies anyway since they drop some neat things)). and once you learn their patterns and weaknesses, fighting them becomes really quickly and it's an easy way to partially make up for the potential loss of your bloodstain with all your souls.

and there's a "partial" TP item: it teleports you to your last used bonfire (but you can't teleport back to the place where you used the item) and it can be really useful once you unlock the ability to "warp" between some bonfires roughly half-way through the game.

 

[Average Manatee]

You have to keep in mind that there aren't really any "hard" areas in terms of needing quick reaction time or masterfully timed combos. DS isn't about that, it's about peeking into a room and noticing the two enemies around the corner rather than charging in to fight the obvious enemy and getting ganked. It's about avoiding traps that you haven't seen before before you trigger them, not after reloading when you die to them. The exploration of the environment is the danger, not the enemies themselves. Save/Load spam doesn't destroy games that rely on your button pressing skill, it does destroy DS as soon as you have perfect knowledge of the room before you go into it.

 

[Black]

It better not be 1:1 console port.

 

[betamin]

I can't be against the pressure of not failing that checkpoints give. Taking it to the extreme, ironman, Dungeon Crawl (and roguelikes in general) has awesome moments just because of that.

 

[Cassidy]

Checkpoints tend to promote overt linearity and railroading. Ironman doesn't.

 

[Jasede]

I believe Kaizo mario was balanced around savestates. Imagine if that was a hacked pirate kart sold on the cheap back before emulators, children would have gone berserk.

Actually, you'd be wrong. The original Kaizo and Kaizo 2 romhacks, despite often played with savestates, were made by a Japanese dude for his friend to beat- using a cheat-code that gave him infinite lives. There are videos on Youtube, or used to be, where you can watch that amazing Japanese dude play the entire game, getting further each life.

It's really quite something. He finished both of them.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

On the same note, at least one individual actually managed to complete impossible difficulty on IWBTG. Basically, no checkpoints, one life, one run. The creator himself couldn't believe it.

 

[Average Manatee]

On the same note, at least one individual actually managed to complete impossible difficulty on IWBTG. Basically, no checkpoints, one life, one run. The creator himself couldn't believe it.

link? I don't believe this.

 

[Castanova]

I just don't see the advantage in not having the option to save normally.

The advantage is that Dark Souls turns this into a game mechanic. The experience you get from killing enemies can only be spent at checkpoints or at item/spell vendors. The whole point is that the decision to explore further is tempered by the risk that you'll lose all the recent XP you've accumulated. The entire game is a huge risk/reward scenario which makes exploring and fighting enemies that much more tense.

 

[Jasede]

It's just a different gameplay style, dood. You don't have to like it. Just don't keep yapping in our ears about why it's so terrible when you haven't played it, or don't appreciate that style.

I detest dub-step. I can't even say why - it just sounds like crap to me. So while I could go to a dub-step fansite and keep telling them about my hatred for dub-step, I doubt I'd change their mind - or they mine.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

link? I don't believe this.

skepticism is warranted

there's a whole bunch of montage crap, start at 4:20
hahaha check out the sound of his button hammering skillz at 7:55

I detest dub-step. I can't even say why

WWWWWUMmMMBBBBBBBBBBB BZZZZZbzzzBZZZAAAAAAHHHHAAHHHZZAAAAAAHZAAAAAAAHHHH wuuummBBBUDADAZZZBUDDAZZZZZZZZppp wUUUUMMMM WUMMMMMMMMMMMmmm BZzzTZTTTTZZZZZtttBWWOOOOOOOOMMMMM

 

[Average Manatee]

link? I don't believe this.

skepticism is warranted

there's a whole bunch of montage crap, start at 4:20
he also seems to be using some kind of turbo controller

Ehh, still have to call bullshit. If for no reason other than the game has a 99.5% chance of crashing. Anyone trying to prove something like this would know that you have to physically videotape the person pressing the buttons while the game is playing. Otherwise cheating with savestates/speedhacks/etc is way too easy.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

bullshit

It was streamed live

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19319578&postcount=15

(disregard embedded video, see comments)

 

[Average Manatee]

ing Japs

 

[Surf Solar]

Is this still the right thread to whine about how hard the game is ask discuss tactics and strategies ingame?
Because for almost a week already with 1-2 hours playing time each day, I am STILL in the undead burg, and I can't get past the a) "Dark Knight" thingy in this floor down there (even though sometimes I ALMOST made it), b) the Taurus Demon (where I am already glad when I can take down 1/4 of his health) and neither c) this guy with the huge shield and hammer down this tower right before the Taurus Demon, which pretty much means I am stuck.
I grinded for hours and hours to put up my DEX (I am playing a wanderer), but it didn't help. Then I rerolled my knight and couldn't believe how easy the start is (I could even take down those skeletons at the start without grinding), but was yet disappointed when I still couldn't beat either of the aformentionend enemies. Slowly but steady I think I just suck at this game.



But who cares, today will be the next session to try it out, the game is still fun in some insanely sadistic way.

 

[Jasede]

link? I don't believe this.

skepticism is warranted

there's a whole bunch of montage crap, start at 4:20
hahaha check out the sound of his button hammering skillz at 7:55

I detest dub-step. I can't even say why

WWWWWUMmMMBBBBBBBBBBB BZZZZZbzzzBZZZAAAAAAHHHHAAHHHZZAAAAAAHZAAAAAAAHHHH wuuummBBBUDADAZZZBUDDAZZZZZZZZppp wUUUUMMMM WUMMMMMMMMMMMmmm BZzzTZTTTTZZZZZtttBWWOOOOOOOOMMMMM

That was amazing, thanks for the link.

 

[BLOBERT]

Is this still the right thread to whine about how hard the game is ask discuss tactics and strategies ingame?
Because for almost a week already with 1-2 hours playing time each day, I am STILL in the undead burg, and I can't get past the a) "Dark Knight" thingy in this floor down there (even though sometimes I ALMOST made it), b) the Taurus Demon (where I am already glad when I can take down 1/4 of his health) and neither c) this guy with the huge shield and hammer down this tower right before the Taurus Demon, which pretty much means I am stuck.
I grinded for hours and hours to put up my DEX (I am playing a wanderer), but it didn't help. Then I rerolled my knight and couldn't believe how easy the start is (I could even take down those skeletons at the start without grinding), but was yet disappointed when I still couldn't beat either of the aformentionend enemies. Slowly but steady I think I just suck at this game.



But who cares, today will be the next session to try it out, the game is still fun in some insanely sadistic way.

BRO ABOVE THE TAURUS DEMON IS PROBABLY THE EASIEST OF THE 3 ENEMIES YOU ARE STUCK AT AND ALSO LEADS TO THE NEXT MAIN SECTION OF THE GAME

FOR YOU BRO MAYBE A SPEAR WOULD MAKE YOUR LIFE EASIER GET THE WINGED SPEAR IN THE CEMETARY BEHIND THE FIRELINK SHRINEE JUST RUN AND PREPARE TO LIKELY DIE THEN PUMP ENOUGH STRENGTH AND DEXTERITY TO USE IT AND THEN ALL ENDURANCE THAT WOULD BE A GOOD NEWBIE KNIGHT GUIDE

OR START WITH PYROMANCY BUT AIM FOR GOOD ARMOR AND THE SAME THING ACTUALLY PYROMANCER MIGHT BE YOUR BEST BET

 

[BLOBERT]

BRO LOLLOL FROM YOUR POST ABOVE IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU HAVENT FOUND THE CEMETARY BEHIND THE FIRELINK SHRING THERE IS ALSO LOTS OF GOOD SHIT IF YOU EXPLORE

 

[Surf Solar]

Thanks bro!

I will check out the cemetary, I was there and discovered it, beat some skeletons but thought "eh this is a high level area, better come back later". Now that I grinded a lot, I should really give it a whirl. Thanks again!

 

[Jasede]

That part is really your first hurdle. You will notice that once you beat it and make a new character, you will wonder how it ever caused you trouble at all. Keep trying different things.

You can skip that Dark/Death Knight if he is too hard. The key is, of course, dodging his attacks, but that is a lot harder than writing it down makes it sound. All I can say is good luck, try firebombs, and don't feel bad if you can't beat him. He's like an optional mini-boss - save him for later.

The key to the Taurus Demon is to decimate his health by climbing the ladder behind you and performing a jump-attack. If you combine this with the Gold Pine Resin the Residence Key or Master Key yield you, you ought to be able to hack your way to victory. Alternatively, try dodging by rolls. It will take many tries but eventually you can dodge every attack. Also, he is easier to dodge if you stand really close to him.

Oh, and find a weapon style you really like. Doesn't matter what people online say about it. If you find a weapon/shield or weapon style that you enjoy, stick with it and master it and you'll become great at it in no time! I'm a big fan of the Asylum Demon's Demon Hammer, even though the weapon is garbage and the swing speed ludicrous. But it rewards the way I play: slowly and carefully, waiting for openings and dodging a lot.