From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[SpaceWizardz]

DS1 ends after O&S.

You probably don't like it, because everything after O&S dispels "the prophecy" and the whole "you're the one" thing.

Completely irrelevant to the unambiguous decline in level design that happens after O&S which is the general critique with DS1.

 

[D_X]

DS1 ends after O&S.

You probably don't like it, because everything after O&S dispels "the prophecy" and the whole "you're the one" thing.

No, it has nothing to do with the story. It's because level design just takes a massive nosedive and I find it a chore to play. Every time I replay DS1 I just can't bring myself to finish it and this is even with killing the four kings before Anor Londo so I can shorten the end game.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

DS1 ends after O&S.

You probably don't like it, because everything after O&S dispels "the prophecy" and the whole "you're the one" thing.

No, it has nothing to do with the story. It's because level design just takes a massive nosedive and I find it a chore to play. Every time I replay DS1 I just can't bring myself to finish it and this is even with killing the four kings before Anor Londo so I can shorten the end game.

Story in DS1 is just some guys setting up a pro-monarchy bullshit operartion to defend a king who looks like this

until you meet someone who dispels the illusion and you learn the truth of it all (it's a jrpg and the goal is to kill god)

 

[Skinwalker]

Story in DS1 is just some guys setting up a pro-monarchy bullshit operartion to defend a king who looks like this

Gwyndolin looks much sexier than that guy.

 

[Silva]

It could be coincidence but taoism and ying-yang kinda helps to make sense of the DS universe.

For eg, I always got puzzled by the statement that "when fire fades, it will be the age of Darkness". I mean, when fire fades shouldn't the world go back to the age of grey crags or something before disparity came to be? Well, no. If you look it through ying-yang the fire never completely fades, it only weakens. Light and dark are complementary elements of nature that can't exist without the other. So there will always be a bit of light even in the age of darkness, just like a dot of yang exists inside of ying and vice-versa.

Further, in taoism there's the concept of "hunyuan", the "primordial chaos of oneness" that originally existed in our world before disparity came to be, and that monks try to reach through meditation. Where in the game we hear that? Yep, the archdragon communion covenant and it's meditative practices. The convenant is not just about becoming a badass dragon kicking everybody's asses, but having a glimpse of the original oneness that existed before the first flame.

Also notice the game never makes a moral judgement, never defining what the "good" and "evil" parties in it's plot are. This is again from taoism, which posits morality do not pertain to objective reality, being just a perceptual thing from it's beings.

Cool huh?

 

[Silva]

 

[cruel]

I've started re-playing this (Prepare to Die Edition) for like 7th time, and it just reinforces my conclusion: this is the hardest Souls game. And I don't mean bosses, but the brutality of the world that surrounds you - no other game in the series fucks you so much. If you don't believe me, I recommend an experiment:

(Make sure you made a big enough break from the game, 3-5 years preferred)

1. Depths - without buying Purging Stones before going there. How comfortable you are in the lower levels?
2. Blighttown. Remember the first-time trip feeling. How much time did you spent to find a way down and the bonfire? First reaction to toxic status?
3. Go to Sen's Fortress. Blind, no walkthroughs or memory refreshes before. Try to do it in one go, including the demons on the bottom level. Big rolling ball? Pendulums? Fun.
4. Go to New Londo Ruins. Try to beat 4 Kings (and the path leading to them) without waiting for a perfect build. Good luck with Darkwraiths.
5. Catacombs -> Tomb of the Giants - again, no walkthroughs or memory refreshes. Be honest with yourself about the possibility of actually having a divine weapon.

The only other game in the series that comes close (with the feeling of danger & hopelessness) is possibly The Valley of Defilement in Demon's Souls, and that's it. Freaking masterpiece.

 

[D_X]

I've started re-playing this (Prepare to Die Edition) for like 7th time, and it just reinforces my conclusion: this is the hardest Souls game.

I disagree. It is perhaps the most creative in ways of trolling the player, like you already mentioned with Sen's and Blighttown, but DeS (cuts your hp in half when you die, no bonfires except at the start and end of a level), DS2 (gradually cuts your health, massive gangbangs in both OG and Scholar) and DS3 (pure bullshit) are much harder but let's say through sheer force rather than traps (tho' DeS at least is not lacking in terms of level design).

As to the other points:

1. Depths - without buying Purging Stones before going there. How comfortable you are in the lower levels?

Extremely. Never had the need for them.

2. Blighttown. Remember the first-time trip feeling. How much time did you spent to find a way down and the bonfire? First reaction to toxic status?

Not too much, but toxic status is a troll move indeed. I think it would be fair to mention I think Blighttown is shit tho' just like Valley of Defilement.

3. Go to Sen's Fortress. Blind, no walkthroughs or memory refreshes before. Try to do it in one go, including the demons on the bottom level. Big rolling ball? Pendulums? Fun

This one, yes. Sen's is one of the more creative levels in terms of trolling the player.

4. Go to New Londo Ruins. Try to beat 4 Kings (and the path leading to them) without waiting for a perfect build. Good luck with Darkwraiths.

What? Darkwraiths are easy. Their moveset is quite basic and they can easily be backstabbed. The ghosts with their pass through walls bullshit and almost infinite agro range are much, much worse than the wraiths. You don't need a perfect build either, just having enough damage not to fight multiple kings at once is enough.

5. Catacombs -> Tomb of the Giants - again, no walkthroughs or memory refreshes. Be honest with yourself about the possibility of actually having a divine weapon.

There's really no need for a divine weapon tho'. I only ever used one once on a replay for fun, otherwise it's not that hard to figure the gimmick and get past with a regular weapon even on a blind playthrough.

 

[Falksi]

I've started re-playing this (Prepare to Die Edition) for like 7th time, and it just reinforces my conclusion: this is the hardest Souls game. And I don't mean bosses, but the brutality of the world that surrounds you - no other game in the series fucks you so much. If you don't believe me, I recommend an experiment:

(Make sure you made a big enough break from the game, 3-5 years preferred)

1. Depths - without buying Purging Stones before going there. How comfortable you are in the lower levels?
2. Blighttown. Remember the first-time trip feeling. How much time did you spent to find a way down and the bonfire? First reaction to toxic status?
3. Go to Sen's Fortress. Blind, no walkthroughs or memory refreshes before. Try to do it in one go, including the demons on the bottom level. Big rolling ball? Pendulums? Fun.
4. Go to New Londo Ruins. Try to beat 4 Kings (and the path leading to them) without waiting for a perfect build. Good luck with Darkwraiths.
5. Catacombs -> Tomb of the Giants - again, no walkthroughs or memory refreshes. Be honest with yourself about the possibility of actually having a divine weapon.

The only other game in the series that comes close (with the feeling of danger & hopelessness) is possibly The Valley of Defilement in Demon's Souls, and that's it. Freaking masterpiece.

I recently replayed it around 3 months ago after a similar lengthed break, and Blightown is just SO fucking brilliant. Probably one of THE best designed areas in any game ever, just an utter joy to explore. I can like, even love a game on a first playthrough, but when you return to them several times over and are still seeing their genius unravel then that's when you know you have a true masterpiece on your hands for sure.

 

[Kruyurk]

One of the many reasons why Blighttown is amazing is because of all that you went through before.
During the first hours of the game, you never move too far from Firelink Shrine, in big loops connected by shortcuts, and you get to familiarize yourself with the environment. You slowly build a mental map and the environment becomes easier to navigate. Backtracking is always an option, made easier with the shortcuts, and you are never lost for long. The passages in dark indoors are always brief and you find many vantage points that let you orient yourself and build the mental map. You travel up and down at times, but mostly horizontally in circles.

Then after the Capra Demon, it is the exact opposite. The kitchens then the sewers are always dark, cramped, with almost no shortcuts. You lose any sense of orientation, the only certainty is that you came from upward. Backtracking becomes less and less an option the deeper you go. You are now forced to only go down, always further from Firelink Shrine.
Then when you finally find a huge room with daylight visible from the ruined ceiling, you meet the Gaping Dragon, the biggest and scariest monster yet, giving you a sense that you will find more than giant rats at the bottom of it all.

At that point you are really fatigued of these dark and disgusting environments. You just want to be at Firelink Shrine again, feeling that you have some choice in where to go.
Then you enter Blighttown, in a huge tunnel even darker that what came before. After the rats and slime above, you find there humanoids again, that built scaffolding everywhere in the sewers. There is another civilization down here, different from all the previous hollows that were inhabitants of the castle. Then finally you end up on the big stone arches, in this huge area, a majestic sight despite all the ugliness surrounding you. After more efforts you descend at the bottom of Blighttown, in a swamp. At last you regain some sense of freedom, you can chose in which direction to go of this huge swamp, not contrained in your path by the scaffolding anymore. Free but what feels like irremediably cut off from Firelink Shrine and the world above. Then you explore this new world that you arrived in, not sure if you actually chose to come here. You build a new mental map, that connects somehow with the first one by an interminable and thin link. You are free and yet trapped down here. The castle ate you in its kitchens, digested you in its internal labyrinth, through the sewers, then finally spew you in Blighttown.

The genius of Blighttown seeps through other parts of the game. Anor Londo is even more beautiful and stricking because of all the ugliness you found deep down. Ash Lake feels like a place holy and pure because it was preserved from all the filth above.

Reading in other posts that others love Blighttown as much as I do makes me happy. It is the best part of what will always be one of my favourite games.

I love this painting of Elric of Melniboné by Michael Whelan for several reasons. One of them will be obvious to you.

 

[perfectslumbers]

Coming back from Blighttown to find Firelink broken is one of the most memorable and emotional moments I've ever had in a video game. I felt genuinely heartbroken. To inspire that without any narrative or characters, just the anticipation of relief after the hell of the underworld and taking it away from me in my most desperate moment, is absolutely amazing.

 

[Silverfish]

I love this painting of Elric of Melniboné by Michael Whelan for several reasons. One of them will be obvious to you.

Because he's not wearing pants?

 

[Skinwalker]

Finding Ash Lake at the bottom of the long and arduous descent through the inside of the Archtree felt like a genuine religious experience for me. The cosmic choir certainly helped (is it the only level in the entire game that has ambient music, aside from boss fights?).

 

[Kruyurk]

Finding Ash Lake at the bottom of the long and arduous descent through the inside of the Archtree felt like a genuine religious experience for me.

What makes Ash Lake feel even more sacred is the opposition with Anor Londo. The latter is at the top of the world, the furthest away from the ugly underworld that you escaped from, blessed by the sun, with a majestic castle built by men. After defeating Ornstein and Smough you are rewarded with the sight of a goddess, who entrusts you with a holy mission. Yet all this sacredness is an illusion, and the truth is that this place is also in darkness.

The true sacred place was hidden, not at the top but beneath the ugliness of the world, and it is possible to never find it. The beauty of the place is not a gigantic castle full of hubris but the majesty of the natural world, in a state preserved by the turmoil of the world above. There is no goddess to give you a sacred mission here, but a meditating dragon.

The cosmic choir certainly helped (is it the only level in the entire game that has ambient music, aside from boss fights?).

There is also some music when you are in Gwynevere's room, which links to my previous point.

 

[gabel]

Despite some flaws, I strongly believe that DS1 will historically turn out to have been peak From Software game design, from the players' perspective.
That was their peak: still great ambitions, but also still limited budget and not many suits intervening because of that.

Dark Souls 2 still has much of that charm, but it's been getting less and less ever since, imo.

 

[Turn_BASED]

Despite some flaws, I strongly believe that DS1 will historically turn out to have bean peak From Software game design, from the players' perspective.
That was their peak: still great ambitions, but also still limited budget and not many suits intervening because of that.

Dark Souls 2 still has much of that charm, but it's been getting less and less ever since, imo.

It’s still the best for me as well. Yes, it has rushed content toward the end of the game for sure, but overall, it struck the best balance. Many great, memorable bosses, no anime weapon arts. No open world.

And on the release version, before it was patched to be easier, it was truly punishing.

 

[NJClaw]

Despite some flaws, I strongly believe that DS1 will historically turn out to have been peak From Software game design, from the players' perspective.

That's pretty much what almost everyone has been saying since DS2 got released.

 

[Skinwalker]

What makes Ash Lake feel even more sacred is the opposition with Anor Londo. The latter is at the top of the world, the furthest away from the ugly underworld that you escaped from, blessed by the sun, with a majestic castle built by men. After defeating Ornstein and Smough you are rewarded with the sight of a goddess, who entrusts you with a holy mission. Yet all this sacredness is an illusion, and the truth is that this place is also in darkness.

The true sacred place was hidden, not at the top but beneath the ugliness of the world, and it is possible to never find it. The beauty of the place is not a gigantic castle full of hubris but the majesty of the natural world, in a state preserved by the turmoil of the world above. There is no goddess to give you a sacred mission here, but a meditating dragon.

Eh, you can rationalize it like this if you want, but really it's the complete surprise of finding yourself in a vast otherworldly place at the bottom of the world, after following a secret path that you could have easily missed.

Archdragon Peak in DSIII also gave me similar vibes, even though it's a completely different type of area. And nothing at all in Elden Ring, even though most levels there are as beautiful as a painting.

 

[NJClaw]

The cosmic choir certainly helped (is it the only level in the entire game that has ambient music, aside from boss fights?).

There is also some music when you are in Gwynevere's room, which links to my previous point.

There's music also in the area with the Daughter of Chaos (0:29) and, obviously, in Firelink Shrine (0:00). There are also some weird sounds in the area where you get invaded in the Painted World of Ariamis (0:00, here it's louder).

 

[Kruyurk]

What makes Ash Lake feel even more sacred is the opposition with Anor Londo. The latter is at the top of the world, the furthest away from the ugly underworld that you escaped from, blessed by the sun, with a majestic castle built by men. After defeating Ornstein and Smough you are rewarded with the sight of a goddess, who entrusts you with a holy mission. Yet all this sacredness is an illusion, and the truth is that this place is also in darkness.

The true sacred place was hidden, not at the top but beneath the ugliness of the world, and it is possible to never find it. The beauty of the place is not a gigantic castle full of hubris but the majesty of the natural world, in a state preserved by the turmoil of the world above. There is no goddess to give you a sacred mission here, but a meditating dragon.

Eh, you can rationalize it like this if you want, but really it's the complete surprise of finding yourself in a vast otherworldly place at the bottom of the world, after following a secret path that you could have easily missed.

Archdragon Peak in DSIII also gave me similar vibes, even though it's a completely different type of area. And nothing at all in Elden Ring, even though most levels there are as beautiful as a painting.

Yes, I know that I am most probably over-reading some meaning into it. I should have mentioned that in my post.

 

[Skinwalker]

Yes, I know that I am most probably over-reading some meaning into it. I should have mentioned that in my post.

It's ok, I have my moments too:

One important thing about discovering Ash Lake is that it unambiguously establishes a classic universe (objective vertical axis with an ultimate top and bottom, inhabited (flat) world in-between, otherwordly underworld at the lowest level) instead of a modern trite globeworld/planet/solar system/galaxy model.

Since you are suddenly liberated from the framework of being located somewhere on the surface of a planet (since this vast plane cannot possibly be located anywhere on or in a planet), and since the underworld of underworlds which is the Ash Lake stretches seemingly without end with multitudes of unfathomably tall arch-trees in the distance (their canopy seeming to hold up the entire weight of the world above), your sense of proportions is totally dismayed, and a numinous surrealism sets in.

Then you discover the dragon, and it unfolds its many wings.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

No open world.

As someone who pretty much never plays open world games DS1 does feel like an open world more than not. Case of perspective I guess.

 

[Steezus]

Despite some flaws, I strongly believe that DS1 will historically turn out to have been peak From Software game design, from the players' perspective.
That was their peak: still great ambitions, but also still limited budget and not many suits intervening because of that.

Dark Souls 2 still has much of that charm, but it's been getting less and less ever since, imo.

What is Codex's obsession with Dark Souls 2? Apart from build variety those two games aren't even on the same playing field. Disregarding the myriad of issues the game has, the floaty gameplay alone knocks it below all other Souls titles.

I do agree with your comment about Dark Souls 1 tho. As much as I love Bloodborne, I think the world design is just so special and something they weren't able to recreate ever again.

 

[skaraher]

So I finished two times the first Dark Souls, which entry in the series should I play next ?

 

[janior]

What is Codex's obsession with Dark Souls 2?

DLCs are 10/10