The decline of the Elder Scrolls series

[Kahlis]

I'm waiting for DaggerXL to be done to commence my replay of Daggerfall. Is there any word on the creator of XL planning on making certain interesting stats more useful when playing?

will it ever be done?

Not if he keeps going back and starting over to ensure his engine will be fully accommodating of the features in the eventual DarkXL, OutlawsXL, BloodXL, SimCityXL, DoomXL, SolitaireXL...

 

[Kukulkan]

I'm waiting for DaggerXL to be done to commence my replay of Daggerfall. Is there any word on the creator of XL planning on making certain interesting stats more useful when playing?

will it ever be done?

There have been modding projects that took many many years of development. Yet they came out all the same.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Both run fine on Win7 64bit. To make things easy, use DaggerfallSetup, and don't forget the adjustments mentioned on the page.

I used that link to start a new playthrough (on Win7 64bit). My char after an hour:

Wonderful.

Keep at it for a week, and this is what your character will look like:

 

[Rostere]

I tried to play Morrowind once, back in 2004 or 2005. I spent an afternoon on it before deciding it was completely retarded. From what I've seen and heard, the series have only become worse since then, so I haven't bothered picking up Oblivion or Skyrim.

Since I've never played Daggerfall, I must ask what could possibly be of any interest to a RPG gamer? To me, it looks like Doom with a random- generated world and stats tacked on. Why are people who like tactical combat and an interactive story interested in Daggerfall?

The graphics look quite nice though, I'll give you that.

 

[Luzur]

I'm waiting for DaggerXL to be done to commence my replay of Daggerfall. Is there any word on the creator of XL planning on making certain interesting stats more useful when playing?

will it ever be done?

last update from Lucius was on october 29th, so its anyones guess.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I tried to play Morrowind once, back in 2004 or 2005. I spent an afternoon on it before deciding it was completely retarded. From what I've seen and heard, the series have only become worse since then, so I haven't bothered picking up Oblivion or Skyrim.

Since I've never played Daggerfall, I must ask what could possibly be of any interest to a RPG gamer? To me, it looks like Doom with a random- generated world and stats tacked on. Why are people who like tactical combat and an interactive story interested in Daggerfall?

The graphics look quite nice though, I'll give you that.

Why should you?

Daggerfall's innovation is that it involves several parallel main quests, instead of one main quest. These three main quests influence each other and complement each other, and you can do as much of a mix of these three main quests as you want. Moreover, these three main quests involve building your influence with several factions, and alienating or winning over a certain faction influences whether you can side with them, and then that influences what benefits you get from that faction.

When I did a LP of Daggerfall, I had to draw a chart to keep up with the political complexities of the game, and my position with various factions in the storyline. This is what it looked like:

So much for interactive story.

What about tactical combat? Well, like BG2, it all comes down to what powers, protections, and buffs both sides have. There are liches who use powerful AOE spells, but are vulnerable to Spell Reflection. There are enemies that silence you, forcing you into non-magical combat. There are enemies who can see through your improved invisibility, but can be sneaked upon or reasoned with if you speak their language. Most of all, there are ancient vampires who sneak up on you from invisibility mode, and launch powerful paralyzing spells and magically damaging spells, that force you to keep Resistance/Immunity to Paralysis and Resistance/Immunity to Magic. Sometimes, you have the best buffs against a powerful spellcasting enemy, but his poison attack kills you instantly, forcing you to get some enchantment or spell to resist poison. Moreover, if you maximize INT and WIS, use Spell Absorption, and repeat AOE spells, you can recast them into infinity - which is very useful. Lots of tactics in lots of situations.

 

[Luzur]

i was just recommended this by YT.

its totally epic guize, YOU CAN ACTUALLY BE CROWNED EMPEROR IF YOU CONTROL THE RESOURCES

 

[Wyrmlord]

i was just recommended this by YT.

its totally epic guize, YOU CAN ACTUALLY BE CROWNED EMPEROR IF YOU CONTROL THE RESOURCES

You just saw this video NOW?

Damn, are you behind the times. You are REALLY behind the times.

We have had pages long discussions on that video. Look it up.

 

[ohWOW]

Just listem to these pricks, don't you want to hit their stupid faces with a hammer?

 

[Glyphwright]

And the dungeons don't change. What the game did was randomly build large number of dungeons once, and then permanently fixed them. That's different. There are only the same dungeons with the same names - they don't ever change.

I'm pretty sure that Daggerfall builds a large number of dungeons upon the start of a New Game. So two people playing Daggerfall on their computers will have to run through completely different dungeons, aside from several quest-specific ones that are always fixed.

You heard it first, folks. Morrowind isn't deeper than Skyrim, it just seems that way because it's an older game.

Oh, but it is. The plot and setting of Morrowind are richer, more original and far deeper than most RPG games out there, old or new. While at its core it's your old "the Chosen One rises from humble beginnings to destroy the Ancient Evil that has awoken in the dark", the story is given several philosophical twists and is organically woven into the gameplay, to the point where you never feel that the game is holding you by the hand and forcing you to jump through N+1 world-saving hoops to unlock "Chosen One" achievement. Unlike Oblivion and Skyrim, there is never a point in Morrowind where the character is told "Hurry to place A with artefact XY or the world will end in a fiery orgasm!" - made especially farcical in Oblivion, where you could simply walk away from the main quest at any point for as long as you wished - and nothing would happen.

The original premise is, that our character, the Chosen One of Morrowind, is the reincarnation of an ancient hero and war leader Nerevar, who was slain in battle with Voryn Dagoth, usurper of the divine power of a dead god. However, almost every point of this story is put into question as the character progresses along the main quest. The hero being a "reincarnation" apparently means something other than having the same soul as Nerevar - in fact, we meet the ghosts of several unsuccessful "reincarnations" along the way. And it's never really made clear whether Nerevar was slain by his enemy Dagoth Ur, or by his treacherous allies - Sotha Sil, Almalexia and Vivec who sought the power of Lorkhan for themselves - the latter versions seems to be more probable. Dagoth Ur and his underlings seem like the furthest thing away from gibbering monstrosities or cackling villains, in fact, if you ever come close enough to talk - they will offer you some quality brandy and a conversation of mutual respect. And finally, victory over Dagoth Ur merely ties a few old loose ends, but does not bring any measure of peace or deliverance to the people of Morrowind - in fact, it accomplishes the opposite of that. The living gods of Morrowind lie dead or lose their power, the native religion crumbles, the Great Houses are forced to choose between absorbing into Imperial power structures or facing gradual extinction, and greedy neighbors start to gnash their teeth at Morrowind's lands and possessions. It's not a happy end, and it's not a total tragedy. It's life, with all its pitfalls and sorrows.

Why Bethpizda chose to have Morrowind completely destroyed by the time of Oblivion is beyond me. Was that a cheap and dirty way of getting back at Michael Kirkbride, who was the author of the most inspired and interesting pieces of TES lore, including the backstory to Morrowind? More likely, the talentless hacks at Bethpizda simply had no idea what to do with a complex socio-cultural-religious-philosophical-historical-political conflict inherited by TES3: Morrowind, and curbstomped it with a huge explosion (tm) to keep the fans from asking intelligent questions. Nice to know that the huge island you spent years exploring in TES3 was blown to smithereens. Even nicer to know that the subsequent titles were set in generic Western pseudo-Middle Ages, robbed of the shreds of individuality and splendor previously described in lore. I bet The Elder Scrolls 6 will be set either in Hammerfell, or in Daggerfall.

 

[IDtenT]

i was just recommended this by YT.

its totally epic guize, YOU CAN ACTUALLY BE CROWNED EMPEROR IF YOU CONTROL THE RESOURCES

It reminds me quite a bit of LotRO; dunno if that's good or bad from their perspective.

 

[Wyrmlord]

And the dungeons don't change. What the game did was randomly build large number of dungeons once, and then permanently fixed them. That's different. There are only the same dungeons with the same names - they don't ever change.

I'm pretty sure that Daggerfall builds a large number of dungeons upon the start of a New Game. So two people playing Daggerfall on their computers will have to run through completely different dungeons, aside from several quest-specific ones that are always fixed.

This is completely incorrect.

Castle Necromoghan, which is not included among the list of main quest dungeons, appears regularly on various guild quests in Daggerfall province, and has always been the same.

 

[Captain Shrek]

It reminds me quite a bit of LotRO; dunno if that's good or bad from their perspective.

Well.

The aiming and the blocking and the attacking is being done with the mouse. That itself is an incline, I must say.

 

[Luzur]

i was just recommended this by YT.

its totally epic guize, YOU CAN ACTUALLY BE CROWNED EMPEROR IF YOU CONTROL THE RESOURCES

You just saw this video NOW?

Damn, are you behind the times. You are REALLY behind the times.

We have had pages long discussions on that video. Look it up.

well, since im not interested in such stuff, i guess i am? also wasnt the video posted in that thread just a trailer and not gameplay?

 

[General Maxson]

Will that Elder Scrolls MMO be a subscribing thing like WoW and shit or (ie. you pay every month to play the game)?

I must say that this thread makes me happy and sad and the same tame. Happy, because it makes me wanna start Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind (or even Skyrim ) and play and loose hundreds of hours of my life in enjoyment, but on the other hand, such utter decline of the series has made me sad, and the fact that I can't hope for any kind of incline in the future, only more retardation, simplification, dumbing down and consolitis.

 

[JarlFrank]

And the dungeons don't change. What the game did was randomly build large number of dungeons once, and then permanently fixed them. That's different. There are only the same dungeons with the same names - they don't ever change.

I'm pretty sure that Daggerfall builds a large number of dungeons upon the start of a New Game. So two people playing Daggerfall on their computers will have to run through completely different dungeons, aside from several quest-specific ones that are always fixed..

Nah, the dungeons were randomly generated by the devs but they're static in the game. Everyone will have the same experience when doing quests in the same dungeon.

Arena had dungeons that were generated on game start though, I think.

 

[abnaxus]

Keep at it for a week, and this is what your character will look like:

If you know where to look, you can steal daedric armour and weapons at level 1 with the basic Open spell.

 

[Lord Andre]

I consider myself a casual when it comes to Elder Scrolls games so I might be off in my opinion BUT, for me, the strong point of the series used to be the story/lore. For example, in Morrowind I liked the fact that there were always two sides of the story to every plot and you never really knew the truth. You just kept guessing and eventually decided for yourself what you wanted to beleive. Other than that the games suck in every department. Take away the setting and lore and all is left is big, bland, boring world and uninspired game design. I would say that nostalgia is the main factor that keeps these games among old favorites. Sure, the huge world to explore was ambitious at the time but ambition doesn't always result in quality.

The worst part of the serie's decline as I see it, is that they went full derp on the setting and story, the consoltardization being just the cherry on the cake.

As a side note, when it comes to explorefagging I prefer a small handcrafted world with really elegant design like Gothic or Risen - extremelly good use of a relatively small area and taking advantage of all 3 dimensions to make it feel bigger than it is and full of content. In contrast, even though Gothic 2 with NotR was the better game, it felt bloated by comparison and level design and the usage of space wasn't given as much attention. My conclusion: the more space you have the more sloppy the design gets.

 

[Manjuice Nutella]

Anyone play in Solstheim yet? Any good?

I've watched some parts of LPs that concentrated on dialogues and Morrowind nostalgia; I've also watched enough of consoletards to last for a whole lifetime. Depends what you consider as good; it's more or less the same shit that doesn't really stand out.

If Bloodmoon Solstheim was upper-half being Winterhold/Pale Hold, and the bottom-half being Falkreath Hold; now the bottom-half is Ashlands Region from Morrowind, with ashen wasteland, Redoran architecture, Scathecraw and Trama Root everywhere. There are Emperor Parasols around a new Telvanni tower, though.

Solstheim is around the size of one Hold in Skyrim, kind of like a 10th one (you can fast travel there and it's even included in Radiant quest system in Skyrim/Dawnguard), with Skaal and Tel Mithryn being villages and Raven Rock being the Hold Capital, around the size of Falkreath/Dawnstar.

Regarding quests, there's a chain in Tel Mithryn, (Telvanni Tower with three smaller mushroom houses for steward/cook etc.) in which you help the Telvanni Master Neloth (previously from Sadrith Mora), the new community favorite due to his dialogue and personality, in his research etc. There are also some quests in Raven Rock, Black Book/Apocrypha dungeon crawls, each a separate one like Oblivion Gates, and of course the main quest, which consists of 5 quests/dungeons in total; and ~30 landmarks, most of them dungeons, that however are more like Skyrim Vanilla than Morrowind-esque.

 

[Turjan]

And the dungeons don't change. What the game did was randomly build large number of dungeons once, and then permanently fixed them. That's different. There are only the same dungeons with the same names - they don't ever change.

I'm pretty sure that Daggerfall builds a large number of dungeons upon the start of a New Game. So two people playing Daggerfall on their computers will have to run through completely different dungeons, aside from several quest-specific ones that are always fixed..

Nah, the dungeons were randomly generated by the devs but they're static in the game. Everyone will have the same experience when doing quests in the same dungeon.

Isn't it somehwere in between? The dungeon layout is the same, as they have already been generated by Bethesda when they made the game, but the quest items are placed randomly, so your experience might differ from that of your friend?

 

[Zeriel]

And the dungeons don't change. What the game did was randomly build large number of dungeons once, and then permanently fixed them. That's different. There are only the same dungeons with the same names - they don't ever change.

I'm pretty sure that Daggerfall builds a large number of dungeons upon the start of a New Game. So two people playing Daggerfall on their computers will have to run through completely different dungeons, aside from several quest-specific ones that are always fixed..

Nah, the dungeons were randomly generated by the devs but they're static in the game. Everyone will have the same experience when doing quests in the same dungeon.

Isn't it somehwere in between? The dungeon layout is the same, as they have already been generated by Bethesda when they made the game, but the quest items are placed randomly, so your experience might differ from that of your friend?

Yeah, that's basically it. I'm pretty sure there are assigned quest nodes, though--it just randomizes at what node the quest is spawned in that instance. But the quest stuff is pure scripting, that's not part of the level per se.

And regarding that trailer,

This just reaffirms my huge skepticism and "PASS!" emotions about Elder Scrolls online. The idea of exploring all the provinces is intensely cool, but everything I hear about the gameplay is ridiculously dumb. Fixed classes? Faction PVP? It's pure "let's throw away money trying to copy WoW like everyone else", and I say that as a former hardcore WoW player who should be their core audience. They just don't get it, and the only way this game will make money is off of people who want to explore Tamriel. All MMOs have moneygrab written all over them, but this one is oozing it, just like TOR.

It also makes me really sad because this means that future singleplayer Elder Scrolls games (assuming they don't die off) will never go for the "all provinces in one game" ambition.

 

[Turjan]

Why Bethpizda chose to have Morrowind completely destroyed by the time of Oblivion is beyond me. Was that a cheap and dirty way of getting back at Michael Kirkbride, who was the author of the most inspired and interesting pieces of TES lore, including the backstory to Morrowind? More likely, the talentless hacks at Bethpizda simply had no idea what to do with a complex socio-cultural-religious-philosophical-historical-political conflict inherited by TES3: Morrowind, and curbstomped it with a huge explosion (tm) to keep the fans from asking intelligent questions. Nice to know that the huge island you spent years exploring in TES3 was blown to smithereens.

Well, I'm not sure about this point. It all looked as if Bethesda had originally decided to take Morrowind into a different direction, from everything you hear in Oblivion. However, the setup has been there already in Morrowind. The Ministry of Truth thing remains unresolved, and the point that it is only held back by the love of the people for Vivec the God is in the Sermons (even if you take the "love" thing as hyperbole, Vivec is gone). Regarding Kirkbride, I heard the way they now changed it was his original vision. No idea whether that's true.

But this is actually one of the nice things about this game, even if this specific point involves some later Bethesda decisions: There are lots of aspects to discuss, which is quite unusual for a game.

 

[Turjan]

It also makes me really sad because this means that future singleplayer Elder Scrolls games (assuming they don't die off) will never go for the "all provinces in one game" ambition.

And that's a good thing in my book. "All provinces in one game" sounds very superficial. Well, like Arena . You have to necessarily cut corners if you try to squeeze everything in one single player game.

 

[Zeriel]

It also makes me really sad because this means that future singleplayer Elder Scrolls games (assuming they don't die off) will never go for the "all provinces in one game" ambition.

And that's a good thing in my book. "All provinces in one game" sounds very superficial. Well, like Arena . You have to necessarily cut corners if you try to squeeze everything in one single player game.

I dunno, I think great things arise out of ridiculous and untouchable ambition. "Just finish this 5 hour game and throw it out the door" is what gave us the modern gaming industry. I'd rather play one of Troika's buggy messes any day of the week than anything else.

 

[Broseph]

Will that Elder Scrolls MMO be a subscribing thing like WoW and shit or (ie. you pay every month to play the game)?

I must say that this thread makes me happy and sad and the same tame. Happy, because it makes me wanna start Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind (or even Skyrim ) and play and loose hundreds of hours of my life in enjoyment, but on the other hand, such utter decline of the series has made me sad, and the fact that I can't hope for any kind of incline in the future, only more retardation, simplification, dumbing down and consolitis.

Such is the reality of a modern AAAwesome RPG franchise. Decline. Decline is everywhere.