The Eye of the Beholder Thread

[Unkillable Cat]

Once more the party is heavily burdened with magic equipment i do not want to mindlessly leave behind - a clear downside when doing a thorough run through all three parts of the series. Are there also hub area(s) where i can pile up the valuable loot in EotB III without losing access to it in the later stages of the game?

If you can learn to navigate the Bramble Thorns in the forest, you'll find that the game is extremely open-ended, and you can re-visit (almost) every dungeon floor once you've cleared them out/gone through them once. The only exceptions are the two boss fights IIRC.

 

[Taghor]

Thank you! I will create a bazar-like pile of valuables in the town ruins...

BTW, now after a few level-ups i can confirm that the CON bonus does not add to level-up HP in the upper levels once no die is getting rolled for it anymore (EotB III). Therefore it is highly recommended to grind max-level (13) in EotB II before transferring the party.

 

[Semiurge]

EDIT: Finally found the proper Avatar YAY! (allseeing eyes would sometimes be a blessing indeed). Thanks to the good soul that once included the cool avatars in the forums!

You should reapply your avatar, it looks like it's still the old compressed version. Compare it to mine (don't worry, I shan't leave it that way). Clear your browser cache too in case the avatar doesn't update.

 

[Taghor]

EDIT: Finally found the proper Avatar YAY! (allseeing eyes would sometimes be a blessing indeed). Thanks to the good soul that once included the cool avatars in the forums!

You should reapply your avatar, it looks like it's still the old compressed version. Compare it to mine (don't worry, I shan't leave it that way). Clear your browser cache too in case the avatar doesn't update.

Thank you! Now he is there in all his glory! Great work!

 

[Unkillable Cat]

BTW, now after a few level-ups i can confirm that the CON bonus does not add to level-up HP in the upper levels once no die is getting rolled for it anymore (EotB III). Therefore it is highly recommended to grind max-level (13) in EotB II before transferring the party.

I was going through my notes when I found this as well. I had just completely forgotten about it.

 

[weirwood]

Thagor, one thing you should keep in mind that bows ( slings too, I believe) are bugged in EOB2 and will only do 1 damage. I think you can verify this by playing with All-Seeing Eye, and having monster hp displayed on the mini-map. In EOB3, I think they work correctly again, but they're outclassed by returning throwing weapons.

Cleric/Thief is DOA in 3 because of the level cap, but in the first two games, I like this multi-class because it gives you a thief for lock picking and lets your back-row cleric use the best ranged weapons, all those +4/5 daggers and darts.

 

[Bartizanier]

Is anybody aware of a resource or method for ripping the sound effects from the EOB PC version? I assume they are contained in the EOBDATA files

 

[Taghor]

Thagor, one thing you should keep in mind that bows ( slings too, I believe) are bugged in EOB2 and will only do 1 damage. I think you can verify this by playing with All-Seeing Eye, and having monster hp displayed on the mini-map. In EOB3, I think they work correctly again, but they're outclassed by returning throwing weapons.

Cleric/Thief is DOA in 3 because of the level cap, but in the first two games, I like this multi-class because it gives you a thief for lock picking and lets your back-row cleric use the best ranged weapons, all those +4/5 daggers and darts.

Thank you for the reminder. I actually wasn't aware of 'shooting' weapons being bugged in EotB II. Well, that would explain a thing or two - indeed i never brought down any enemy with bow / sling and stopped using them in EotB II. Good to know that!

I guess you are talking about Mage / Thief? If so, i perfectly agree. AFAIK, Cleric / Thief is not available as a multiclass combination IIRC.


BTW, I recently stumbled over the NPC named Bug in EotB III. I think i'll reload an older save as i don't like the NPC char design and since i had taken up Father Jon (Cleric / Mage) beforehand, i tend to believe that he is more useful (and more sympathetic to be honest). Am i wrong on this? Does Bug have any outstanding spells one should not miss out on?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

BTW, I recently stumbled over the NPC named Bug in EotB III. I think i'll reload an older save as i don't like the NPC char design and since i had taken up Father Jon (Cleric / Mage) beforehand, i tend to believe that he is more useful (and more sympathetic to be honest). Am i wrong on this? Does Bug have any outstanding spells one should not miss out on?

(Bug)enius doesn't have any outstanding spells, he knows all the same spells as Father Jon.

His Ring of Wizardry however (doubles known 5th-level spells) might be worth looting. He also carries a Wand of Magic Missiles (18 charges left) which may prove useful.

Which to pick? Both have the same amount of HP, while Bug's useful stats are both higher by 1. Father Jon also comes with ten bonus Cleric-levels, but levels half as slowly as a result. If you want a pure Mage in your party, then Bug's your pick, otherwise go with Jon.

 

[Taghor]

BTW, I recently stumbled over the NPC named Bug in EotB III. I think i'll reload an older save as i don't like the NPC char design and since i had taken up Father Jon (Cleric / Mage) beforehand, i tend to believe that he is more useful (and more sympathetic to be honest). Am i wrong on this? Does Bug have any outstanding spells one should not miss out on?

(Bug)enius doesn't have any outstanding spells, he knows all the same spells as Father Jon.

His Ring of Wizardry however (doubles known 5th-level spells) might be worth looting. He also carries a Wand of Magic Missiles (18 charges left) which may prove useful.

Which to pick? Both have the same amount of HP, while Bug's useful stats are both higher by 1. Father Jon also comes with ten bonus Cleric-levels, but levels half as slowly as a result. If you want a pure Mage in your party, then Bug's your pick, otherwise go with Jon.

Thanks for your swift - and as always very helpful - answer!

Umm, the ring sounds very interesting... Father Jon however can wear even the heaviest armor... i have a bunch of magic platemails left that i gathered across the previous adventures... already having a single class mage i tend towards the helpful friendly old man...

I guess we have camp first and only decide after a refreshing slumber...

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

If flame blade and spiritual hammer work in eob 3 just like Dungeon Hack, then they are very underrated by some. Those two spells meant many a dungeon hack success. I just never spent a lot of time on EOB3. Maybe EOB2 burnt me out, which is bloody odd if you think about it.

 

[Eisen]

EOB 3 could be good if the engine wasn't so trash

 

[Unkillable Cat]

EOB 3 could be good if the engine wasn't so trash

Are you running the unpatched AESOP/16-version, or the fan-modded AESOP/32-version? Because the latter one eliminates all the performance bottlenecks, making the game run just as smoothly as the prequels.

 

[Taghor]

If flame blade and spiritual hammer work in eob 3 just like Dungeon Hack, then they are very underrated by some. Those two spells meant many a dungeon hack success. I just never spent a lot of time on EOB3. Maybe EOB2 burnt me out, which is bloody odd if you think about it.

In the EotB series, Flame Blade isn't any OP i'd say. It does about the same damage as a long sword but the flame damage might influence that depending on weaknesses / immunities of a target. Clerics do not have that great of a THAC0 value, so a multiclass char might make better use of it. Spiritual hammer i have never used yet (thanks for the idea to test it soon) but by the book i assume that this makes for a nice backrow additional attack without the cumbersome collecting of ammo after a bout.


Regarding EotB III as an entry to the series itself, i'd say that the game is underrated. This might be for a number of reasons:
- some / many players having done the previous two games in a row start to get tired of the playstlye in general
- most custom graphics for magical items of the two prior games do disappear. This takes away some RPG feel
- the first dungeons in EotB III (mausoleum) play a little weird in comparison to the first two games. The sound fx of the enemies are plain terrible (greatly unnerving) and some of the puzzles / traps are non-intuitive compared to the other games. This at first feels like a let down. The game and level design generally improves later quite a bit i think. It is considerable to leave out those levels and rather collect the valuable loot from the bramble forest first. You can return to the mausoleum later which will be much easier then.
- the all attack option isn't visible by itself. One has to find out and activate it first (by left clicking on char names). To me this is a serious QoL improvement - as is the implementation of polearm use from the second row of the party.

Regarding the performance i don't see much difference to the other EotBs. The 2nd seemed to work a bit more fluid but in the steam version i play the difference does not seem to be much if any.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Spiritual Hammer is nice to have, especially in the opening stages of EotB3 as the party hasn't found any other throw/return-weapons. My highest-level Cleric is usually in a back rank, so unless I'm hiding him via Invisibility I'm letting him go Mjölnir on everything and everyone, especially Living Mucks.

It's quite easy to spot which version of EotB3 you're playing. If-

# The game lags for a second while monsters are firing projectiles, leading to the SFX having played before the projectile is even visible.
# Minute lags for every SFX played.
# Minute lags if multiple monsters are moving about.

Then you're playing the unpatched version. I think GoG has their version fully patched.

Also, Real Men don't use All Attack.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Ah yes. Living Mucks the weapon destroyers. They are in DH as well. Yeah, I'd multi-class Fighter/Mage/Priest in DH and would usually get through easily. I don't recall if I did. EOB full party of F/M/P for EOB or not. I'm sure I was trying but after several playthroughs of the first game and a couple of the second I think burnout happened. If i find my maps that should tell me where i left off. I would have picked this up for Amiga but I don't believe it had a release.

 

[Taghor]

Recently i stumbled across the games of 'Legend of Grimrock' and 'The Fall of the Dungeon Guardians - Enhanced Edition'. As fans of EoB / classic dungeon crawling - can you recommend any of them? Or do you have any other recommendations i should have a look at after finishing EoB III?

Dungeon Hack will be a must buy as soon as i can get it on a sale.

 

[Eisen]

'Legend of Grimrock'

Yes

'The Fall of the Dungeon Guardians - Enhanced Edition'

Haven't played

Or do you have any other recommendations i should have a look at after finishing EoB III?

I guess you have played Dungeon Master already?
And Lands of Lore maybe.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Recently i stumbled across the games of 'Legend of Grimrock' and 'The Fall of the Dungeon Guardians - Enhanced Edition'. As fans of EoB / classic dungeon crawling - can you recommend any of them? Or do you have any other recommendations i should have a look at after finishing EoB III?

Dungeon Hack will be a must buy as soon as i can get it on a sale.

I recommend you hold off on the two Grimrock-games until you've played most of the other games in the genre that are about as old as EotB, at least the ones you're interested in playing. That way you'll enjoy Grimrock better.

Below is a list of most of them:

Dungeon Master (1987) - The granddaddy of them all, you should all know this one.
Bloodwych (1989) - Offers two-player mode and split parties, but little else.
Chaos Strikes Back (1989) - An expansion to Dungeon Master which ups the difficulty considerably, not available on PC natively.
Captive (1990) - A sci-fi RPG with robot party members, avoid playing on native PC, emulate the Amiga/Atari ST-versions instead.
Eye of the Beholder 1 (1991) - You all know this one.
Knightmare (1991) - Uses the same engine as Captive, it's based on a children's TV-show. Dunno much about it.
Eye of the Beholder 2 (1991) - You all know this one.
The Black Crypt (1992) - An Amiga-exclusive title which defies some of the norms of the genre.
Lands of Lore (1993) - Westwood got bought out from SSI, but they released this game the year after which is very faithful to EotB 1 & 2, you should all be familiar with this one.
Eye of the Beholder 3 (1993) - You should all know this one, but I don't blame you if you don't.
Hired Guns (1993) - Control a group of mercenaries as they either complete short missions, or run the epic campaign. Each character is controlled separately, which can be problematic for a lone player.
Dungeon Hack (1994) - A rogue-like based on the AESOP-engine that runs EotB3, to the point that it uses assets from the game.
Dungeon Master 2 (1994) - An overambitious, but ultimately failed attempt to revive the franchise.
Escape from Ragor (1994) - Haven't played it myself, as it's only available in German. This feels like a mix of the two Ravenloft-games and Anvil of Dawn (see below).
Crystal Dragon (1994) - An Amiga-exclusive title, haven't played it myself.
Stonekeep (1995) - More of an FMV-game than an RPG, it still has its charms. Comes highly recommended for the character interactions and songs. (Yes, really!)
Anvil of Dawn (1995) - An epic, but sadly tedious game known best for being the last real-time grid-based dungeon crawler of the old times.


17 years later...

Legend of Grimrock 1 (2012) - The game which single-handedly revived the genre. Sadly it's also the best title released out of the new batch, with the singular exception of...
Legend of Grimrock 2 (2014) - It really doesn't get much better than this. Make sure to check out the many mods available for both games.
The Fall of the Dungeon Guardians (2015) - Last I checked this is still an Early Access-title, 8 years later. No comment.
Vaporum (2017) - If I were to pick a runner-up after Grimrock, it's probably this one. It also has a prequel, which I haven't played.
Dungeon of Dragon Knight (2019) - Yet another game trying to cash in on Grimrock's success, not that interesting IMO.

Hope this helps.

 

[Taghor]

Eisen
Thank you - they will definitely land on my to-do list!

Unkillable Cat
What a great and comprehensive list - a big thank you!

I guess for the older titles which aren't easy to get without a GoG account i may need an Amiga emulator, especially for stuff like Black Crypt. I'll keep an eye open on steam where i use to buy games. I will also adhere to the good advice to play the oldest ones first so one does not have the feeling of a let down with them.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I can help out on one front - There's an unofficial port of the Atari ST-version of Chaos Strikes Back available here. (That website is a goldmine for Dungeon Master-games in general, you can even find an unofficial third entry in the series.)

 

[weirwood]

I guess you are talking about Mage / Thief? If so, i perfectly agree. AFAIK, Cleric / Thief is not available as a multiclass combination

Gnomes can be cleric/thieves. Mages can use throwing weapons by default, and the Thief class doesn't bring much of a THAC0 upgrade.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

I guess you are talking about Mage / Thief? If so, i perfectly agree. AFAIK, Cleric / Thief is not available as a multiclass combination

Gnomes can be cleric/thieves. Mages can use throwing weapons by default, and the Thief class doesn't bring much of a THAC0 upgrade.

This was a change from 1st to 2nd edition AD&D. In the former, only half-orcs were permitted to be multiclassed cleric/thieves, while gnomes were limited to the multiclassed options of fighter/illusionist, fighter/thief, and illusionist/thief. In the latter, half-orcs were removed, but gnomes could now be cleric/thieves; fighter/cleric and cleric/illusionist were also added as options for gnomes, who still had the three options existing in 1st edition.

 

[Taghor]

So here i stand corrected...

This oversight of mine might become explained by the aspect of the debiliating level restrictions for gnomes when planning to transfer the party through the series. The limitation to level 12 Cleric and level 16 Thief as MAX is a show stopper for me.

Too bad the RPG portion of the game gets reduced by this strong countering effect when many of the corresponding race / class effects are being left out at the same time.


EDIT:
I am still pondering on which NPC i should leave behind to make Bugenius (level 2 mage tower) join the party. Firing Isharn would strip me of the only thief and i don't know if i need one later on. Father Jon i have let scribe many scrolls into his spellbook already and i overall like the char and class combination. What would you do?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I'd just leave Jon in your party, especially as you've had him scribe some of your scrolls.

BTW you don't need a Thief in EotB3 after the Mausoleum.