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The Eye of the Beholder Thread

Taghor

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Finally found a time window to finish the game!

While the last level was a fairly easy one and the boss done on first try, it all feels like quite an accomplishment. Having gone through all three games i can say that this was a great ride. More fun and long term motivation than most of today's games.

I think that EoB III is very underrated. It was full of special enemies and unique puzzles. Most of them maybe nothing of note nowadays but the EoB games pioneered much of that some thirty years ago! The nostalgia was strongest with the first two entries of the series but the change of the developer despite the loss of some ingame assets did not decrease the amount of fun one can have with the last game.

Dungeon Hack will be the next, yay!

BTW, the two factor login really is a nuisance here...why... ?!
 

Elwro

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It's good that you -- as I understand -- haven't played EoB III last. Boy, was that a disappointment.

Be sure to experiment with Dungeon Hack's settings and make it a proper challenge! Since it lacks the human creative touches of the other ADnD blobbers, I think this is crucial for being able to have fun with it...
 

Taghor

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It's good that you -- as I understand -- haven't played EoB III last. Boy, was that a disappointment.

Be sure to experiment with Dungeon Hack's settings and make it a proper challenge! Since it lacks the human creative touches of the other ADnD blobbers, I think this is crucial for being able to have fun with it...

Sry to disappoint you - but i actually have. It was different than the first two but after getting used to those differences i was able to enjoy it in a similar manner as i did with the first two. Maybe my glasses got a bit rosy because of beating EoB III for the first time and having a party that already was advanced / optimally equipped but i appreciated the merits of the new gameplay ideas being implemented.

I really look forward to playing DH - what settings would you advise me to take care of? I assume that a multi-class char would be advisable?! Should io turn off underwater levels or what else?
 

Mortmal

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I think that EoB III is very underrated. It was full of special enemies and unique puzzles. Most of them maybe nothing of note nowadays but the EoB games pioneered much of that some thirty years ago! The nostalgia was strongest with the first two entries of the series but the change of the developer despite the loss of some ingame assets did not decrease the amount of fun one can have with the last game.

As a coffin dodger who was there at the release, Eye of the Beholder 3 is underrated because it doesn't have the same impact as EOB 1 & 2. People were expecting something better and bigger, and they were hugely disappointed, which is evident in the game's score. By 1993, there were much more innovative and impressive RPGs available, such as Wizardry 7 and Underworld 2. Eye of the Beholder 3 can't hold a candle to titles like those; it falls far short. The expectations were through the roof after experiencing games like that.
There is nothing new in Eye of the Beholder 3, and it doesn't improve upon EOB 2, a game released in 1991. Some would even argue that it looks graphically worse and is smaller in scope. It takes only 15 hours to finish. Additionally, there was no Amiga version, which is a shame because that would have helped its popularity. In the same month of its release, Abandoned Places 2 was also released and received higher ratings. So, if you had an Amiga, you were likely playing Black Crypt or Abandoned Places 2. If you were one of the rare individuals with a gaming PC, you would be playing Ultima Underworld 2 or Wizardry 7. With so many other RPGs available at the time, it's hard to understand why anyone would choose to play EOB3.
During that time, reviewers were much more critical, and reading their reviews gave you a good understanding of whether a game was good or bad. There were new and exciting things happening in gaming every month, and the standards were much higher. Nowadays, there are so few releases, and the overall quality tends to be mediocre. It feels like we're scraping the bottom of the barrel again.
 

Unkillable Cat

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What Mortmal said. But on the upside, EotB3 stuck to its guns and tries to be a game similar to its predecessors, meaning that players get a decent trilogy where all three games play the same. You'd be surprised how many other game series had the third game be some kind of mutant that doesn't fit in with the other two.

But EotB3 still has a lot of problems, and I've mentioned many of these before:

# An optional dungeon that doesn't need to be entered to beat the game.

# Said optional dungeon being placed at the start of the game.

# Optional dungeon turns out to be the hardest dungeon of the game. In terms of scaling difficulty the rest of the game is almost smooth sailing compared to the Mausoleum.

# While interesting loot can be found in the Mausoleum, the walk-away prize is an item that restores lost levels... except the only monster which drains levels is only found in the Mausoleum. So if you don't go in there, you don't ever need the Rod of Restoration.

# The Mausoleum has puzzles which require a Thief to be solved - yet the only Thief NPC in the game can be only be found and recruited if the aforementioned puzzles are solved.

# The game is based in an iconic location in the Forgotten Realms - yet at least one monster in the game hails from Dragonlance, a completely different world.

# Enemies with powerful abilities don't ever use them. Why be a grotesque monster with a spitting attack, if you don't ever use it (Ogre Slugs)? Why be a spellcaster if you don't ever cast any spells (Shade Wizards)? Why be a legendary undead figure with a renowned form of attack, if you never ever use it (Banshees)?

# The game has mechanics for covering paralysis, yet only the two boss creatures can cause paralysis, and they only do so if you let them.

# The game has mechanics for covering petrification, yet there isn't a single creature, trap, or other situation in the game which can petrify your party members.

# Having a super-tough and powerful enemy occupy the final level of the game, yet have the game give you the most powerful weapon in the entire trilogy (Dhauzimmer), which instakills aforementioned enemy with a mere touch, making said enemy a mere irrelevance. (Try killing an Undead Knight in Dungeon Hack, for comparison.)

# Deliberate soft-lock circumstances. EotB1 had none of them, EotB2 unintentionally had a couple of them, but EotB3 has intentional ones?

EotB3 needed another month or two in the oven where they went over the game balance, before being released.


I haven't played Dungeon Hack in decades, but I do remember a few pointers which may be obvious:

# Barring the final endboss, IIRC all the monsters from EotB3 can appear in Dungeon Hack. Yes, even Acwellan. And yes, also the Living Muck...

# Dungeon Hack has a lot of D&D-mainstay monsters which may have a surprise up their sleeve. Wererats, Gargoyles and Cockatrices are early examples.

# Speaking of the monsters, the only monster in the Dungeon Hack-bestiary I never encountered is the Blue Dragon. I did encounter a couple which aren't in the Bestiary though, like the critter on the front of the game box (Anyone know what monster that is BTW?).

# Every floor has (up to) two monsters assigned to it, plus a singular third, more powerful monster. 9 times out of 10 this third monster is guarding the exit to the floor below.

# To beat the game, this third monster must be slain on the bottom floor of the dungeon. Whether that's 10 floors or 25 floors, the goal is always the same.

# The most common monster I encountered is the Tlincalli (scorpion people). The game seems to love them to the point that I'm likely to encounter them on multiple levels.

# Every map is always filled out. If you have an empty space on your map, you haven't explored hard enough.

# The most innocuous-looking weapon may be your salvation.

# The Scrying Glass identifies objects in your hand. Perfect for when you can't cast the Identify-spell.

# Hunger will be a factor. Plan accordingly.
 
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KeighnMcDeath

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Elemental Lord is what that boss is I believe. I've encountered the blue a lot. I can't recall the end boss demon if it is a lord or just some type demon (balor maybe.)




I can't recall any other boss. I was annoyed they left out certain mobs from the previous games.
 
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Unkillable Cat

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I faintly recall that demon-thingie, I've fought the Elemental Lord a couple of times, but a Lich (Acwellan) is also one of the endbosses.

I also recall encountering some other boss-monster than these, but I'd have to see it to recognize it.
 

Sceptic

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I haven't played Dungeon Hack in decades, but I do remember a few pointers which may be obvious:
I want to add one more to your excellent list, and I'm actually looking for confirmation from anyone else who experienced this: every time I played the game, it would stop spawning items once I reached a few levels away from the last one (I remember it happening in both 10 and 25 level dungeons), and this includes it not spawning keys. In every dungeon that I created with keys, it made it impossible to finish the dungeon, even when I was extremely careful with saving keys on earlier levels. This must be a bug but I have no idea what causes it, and was surprised for years to find no mention of it anywhere. I also think I tested at least two versions of the game and it happened in both.
 

Taghor

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Sceptic I cannot tell on Dungeon Hack yet but i stumbled across this very bug in EoB I. Neither keys nor special quest loot was spawning once i had gathered whole mountains of other loot beforehand. I could only solve this by eating all rations and squandering many scrolls. Afterwards everything went as it's supposed to be again. If the programming routines were the same in DH, this might be the same bug. So reducing the number of items existing in the campaign might also solve the problem there.


Since i do not want to play and replay DH multiple times to find out what class might be offers a good experience, what are your recommendations?

I consider a Fighter/Cleric or even a Fighter/Mage/Cleric. Is a Thief component required at all?

Do monsters respawn in the game so one can make up for xp spread among multiple classes?
 

KeighnMcDeath

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Thief is fine for backstab I guess or a challenge. Fighter/mage/priest covers all your basics but you won’t start with greater identify. Mage/priest or mage/fighter you will have greater aid I believe. Basically, priest pwns the game easily. I think, based on class, the set relic items will appear. If a rogue you should eventually find the thief set and not the others (I’m not entirely sure as it has been a while. I used to just run 10 level dungeons to find sets to record their abilities. To this day, I’m not even sure the guides give all the detailed info on each item or set abilities. Sone seems vague. And I forget where my notes are.

Yes, monsters respawn and you can adjust frequency I believe in custom.

Ah, my old posts on this on a different website: https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=81854&hilit=Phoos
 
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Unkillable Cat

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I am unfamiliar with monsters respawning - but then again I may have set that in the game settings. It's close to 30 years since I last played it.

So someone ripped the monster sprites. Cool. You wouldn't happen to still have them, KeighnMcDeath ?
 

KeighnMcDeath

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Probably somewhere. Lordy I keep it in such a haphazard mess. I really should have put them on a host site. I’ll make a note of it.

I really do wish we had skeletons, zombies, kobolds, etc etc from EOB 1&2 in dungeon hack. Game could have had some side caves/lairs as well like other rogue-likes.
 

Unkillable Cat

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Dungeon Hack could have been a lot of things... but mostly it was just a quick cash grab. They had the assets, they had an in-house team familiar with the AESOP-engine, they had a hot franchise - in their shoes I would have quickly cobbled together a rogue-like out of it all and put it on the market.
 

negator2vc

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Since i do not want to play and replay DH multiple times to find out what class might be offers a good experience, what are your recommendations?

I consider a Fighter/Cleric or even a Fighter/Mage/Cleric. Is a Thief component required at all?

Do monsters respawn in the game so one can make up for xp spread among multiple classes?
I used cleric/mage which was quite fun. I don't think that the fighter give enough benefits to make him necessary.
Plug the cleric has a very nice range weapon with the Spiritual Hammer spell which is very useful.
 

Unkillable Cat

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It goes without saying that using a Cleric in DH negates two primary problems for the player - hunger and having a good all-round purpose weapon. That the Cleric is a healing powerhouse only makes it sweeter.
 

KeighnMcDeath

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As I said, I think class will determine the Relic items in the dungeon. Usually, there will be a full set. I played other classes for testing those alone. I think rogue and keys can screw up the item drops. If you don’t use keys you might collect too many on the floor causing some sort of overload. I really can’t recall the lock-picking too much. Damn pity no chests in the game.
 

Unkillable Cat

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I didn't look too hard into it at the time, but those Relics - I think I only found like two or three of them (in total) in all the time I played Dungeon Hack.

I could not, for any reason, see how they could include a full Relic-set in a single dungeon, without upping the difficulty considerably. Keep in mind I know to fully explore every map, and leave no stone unturned, so to say.

With the updated AESOP-engine out now, I might be interested in revisiting the game to see if I fare better in finding Relics.
 

Unkillable Cat

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The original AESOP-engine was a bottleneck on the performance of EotB3 and DH (due to it being a 16-bit program) leading to lag spikes when SFX was being played.

Some years ago the DOSBox-crowd took a look at it and upgraded it to a 32-bit program, thereby eliminating the bottleneck.

This makes EotB3 run silky-smooth as its prequels, and should do the same for DH... though I haven't checked myself.
 

KeighnMcDeath

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OK, here's all the assets and links I could find on such short notice. I also did a mediafire upload so expect duplicates:
EOB123
HD
dhack
knightmare
captive

Spriters Rsource EOB GBA
Spriters Resource EOB1
EOB1 Cutting Room Floor
EOB2 Cutting Room Floor
EOB3 Cutting Room Floor

Warriors of the Eternal Sun Cutting Room Floor (EOB + Ultima 6-7 in a way)
Order of the Griffon should have had some ripping as well as WOTES but alas, none that i can find.

Naturally, a lot of this can be found on the Dungeon Master Forum

I couldn't find the assets for Black Crypt.
https://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=110276

Spriters Resoucrce Shadowcaster

Pixelation

Nada for Anvil of Dawn as well.
 
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