The Eye of the Beholder Thread

[Jaesun]

Hey, EOB still looks good after all these years.You've got to love 2d graphics.

It does actually. It is a wonderful action RPG that really you all should give a try (EOB 1 and 2).

 

[EvilManagedCare]

If you do decide to play EoB1 on the PC make sure and brace yourself for the most spectacular endgame animation of the 90's

 

[Sceptic]

If you do decide to play EoB1 on the PC make sure and brace yourself for the most spectacular endgame animation of the 90's

To be honest it's still slightly better than the ending of POD...

 

[pdesbois]

Hi there,

I believe few ppl would still be playing any of these 3 games todate, but what can I say, I had a savegame from EOB2 and had never played EOB3 before.... So I finished Darklmoon (again) and am giving it a try on Myth Drannor (God, what a difference from those 2 brilliant chapters), so we'll see.

I cam across one of these forums here, but do not remember where they are, also they were from 2009 (surprisingly, not so long ago), and I was curious about something: party setup.

Probably most will agree on 3 of 4 of my EOB 1 members that I carried all the way t hru EOB2 and are doing obviously fine in EOB3 so far which are:

1-Human Female Neutral Good Cleric
2-Human Male Lawful Neutral Mage
3-Elven Male Chaotic Good Ranger
4-Dwarven Male True Neutral Fighter/Thief

I've always been curious that apparently I was the only one to have a Ranger - even more, an Elven! - as the 'party damage dealer / tank'. Dwarven Fighters would rise faster in levels, have a lot more HP's and be resistant to poisons (oh, the dreadful Spiders from back then...), while Human Paladins would be wearing any Plate, have an aura vs Evil for the whole party plus cast a few beneficial low level Cleric spells. All excellent options.

But my reasoning for having the Elven Ranger was highest damage output. As you are there to seldom take damage and often deal it, I thought from the start that the no penalty-dual-wield would allow me to equip tah +5 Longsword and that +3 Short Sword with higher accuracy + being an Elf would give an additional +1 to both weapons (to hit for sure, to damage don't remember). I believe the Ranger retains the no-penalty wearing Banded Armour, right?

The Dwarf Fighter/Thief wielded that horror-show Halberd ('Chieftain' I believe), wore Plate and so was an awesome front-ranker. In my game conception, you MUST have a Thief, and I am sure I entered a couple of good item areas just because I had him there.

I wanted to know what you think about the reasoning behind the character 3 - Elven Ranger. I had played the game many times before (Amiga and C64 I guess), and my party was exactly like the above, but the tank was either a Dwarven Fighter and then I had an Elven Fighter/Thef do the 'let me help you, buddy' to the Dwarf, or a Human Paladin, where the F/T would be like this and the Mage would be Elf. I like variety, and wanted to have an Elf and a Dwarf in the party.

So, if anyone has any comments or want to clarify on some mistake on mine, pls post it!

 

[Sceptic]

There's no reason why a Ranger wouldn't work, but I never had any trouble missing with the off-hand with the the F/T, or by replacing the Ranger with a Paladin or pure Fighter, so the dual-wield bonus never seemed worth losing the ability wear plate. In fact I favor a pure Fighter in that slot because of faster levelling (not so important by 3, but it does make a difference in 1 and 2).

Thief is not absolutely essential, and can be skipped entirely if you take NPC's. Both 1 and 2 have thief NPC's (though the one you find early on in 2 is not a good one to keep) but I find it better to keep it to a smaller party, especially in 1 and 2 where the 2nd row cannot attack in melee anyway (having someone in the 2nd row in 3 using the +5 poleaxe from 1 is priceless though). I do remember at least one area with some good early-game goodies in 2 that absolutely requires a thief, and having one in 1 definitely makes things easier as there are more locks than keys in some levels. I don't remember ever using the thief in 3 though.

Anyway have fun with the Ranger. 3 is unfortunately the weakest entry by far. It has a couple of very nice improvements (polearms with long reach and "all attack") but aside from this it's a mediocre game. The monastery in particular is an utterly stupid part of the game for more reason than one.

 

[pdesbois]

It might have been 'a miss' in terms in party optimal build, but I remember that he only info I had to make my decisions by that time was the manual. So, there are some things there regarding dual-wielding that made me think this build (Elven Ranger) would be the best, also it mentions that Dexterity of 16 or higher counters some of the penalties of dual-wielding, which I took it to mean that other characters would still suffer somehow. Ah, and the +1 to Long and Short Swords that Elves get. I mean, factoring these in I could see no reason why not take the ER as the tank.

But then again, was the manual wrong? Or does it not matter at all, once you reach a certain level? I cannot say, I just had the manual to go by. Ultimately, it might just be that it is all left to personal taste, so it really does not matter at all what you have thre, and the only difference would be whether you have basically Specialists or Generalsits. I'd never have e.g. a Mage/Cleric combo...

EDIT: Any really good walkthru for EOB3? I mean, the ones I got have either something wrong or missing... I just managed to pull those four levers where the plaques say something (in those rooms you get access to by using aGold Key),and nothing happens in the initial floor... That stupid plaque is right where it was in the beginning...

EDIT 2: Was there a rumour about EOB 4?

 

[chzr]

like, eob aren't really games where you need to think about some 'optimal' builds. paladin or ranger are perfectly fine, thieves aren't really a necessity.

here are some not perfect maps for eob 3 but it may help: http://stanislavs.tripod.com/games/eob3maps.htm

 

[pdesbois]

well thx for the map chzr! I had no maps b4 and these surely help.
Whats bothering me is that I am pretty good at these RPG's, I mean I needed the walkthru for completing all 12 hidden quests in EOB 1, but I can manage on my own without a walkthru... But the Mausoleum in EOB3 is killing me, coz I found the 4 rooms that needed the Gold keys, pulled the four levers... and nothing ...

 

[DaveO]

The big problem with EOB3 is that the 'toughest' monsters are near the beginning of the game. Having an All-Attack button made magic more irrelevant in the 3rd entry. I think the bad design coupled with an absurdly easy final boss fight deservedly made the game forgettable.

IF you need walkthrus, I found some on a link below:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/564793-eye-o ... annor/faqs

 

[Unkillable Cat]

The maps chzr posted do are not perfect, but they'll get you through EOB3.

Now, I have some bad news for you. That elven bonus of +1 to swords? It isn't in the game. None of the racial bonuses for weapons are in any of the EOB games. OK, they may be in EOB3, but I haven't found a way to confirm that yet.

As for the weapon bonus Rangers get for dual-wielding? I can't confirm nor deny that it's in the game. That's how "loyal" the EOB games are to AD&D rules. With that in mind, choosing a Ranger as your "primary" tank AND making him an Elf is propably the worst way to handicap yourself with a fighting character. To top things off, he's level-capped at Lvl 18. It's unlikely you'll ever reach that high, but still...

And no, I don't know if Banded Armour will allow your Ranger to retain his dual-wield bonuses. The rulebook says it caps off at Leather Armour, so assume that if the rule is there to begin with, that it's restricted to leather gear... and possibly the Elven Chain in EOB3.

While common sense says to bring along a Thief, the truth is that there's no real need to do so. While he can open some doors in EOB1, there are also available keys to cover every locked door you'll encounter. In EOB2 there are 2 or 3 doors that can only be opened by a Thief, but you can use the NPC thief Insal to open those, and there isn't really that much stuff behind them. It's in EOB3 where a Thief becomes "most" useful, as a couple of puzzles can be "hacked" by a Thief. The ironic part is, that these puzzles are all in the upper floor of the Mausoleum, and you won't get a Thief NPC until you reach the lower level of the Mausoleum.

The real kicker? The Mausoleum is optional. You don't have to go through it. That's why on-line walkthroughs for EOB3 don't cover it that much. But what I can tell you is that you're looking for four levers that are made of bone, and you must pull them twice so that they're facing straight down. They also have plaques nearby that speak of a guy named Fflar.

 

[circ]

EotB series sucks. Try Lands of Lore or Ultima Underworlds instead, similar but unsucky.

 

[Sceptic]

When I said monastery in the previous post I meant mausoleum. I hate that part of the game, even more so since it's optional (and I didn't know that at the time, of course).

But then again, was the manual wrong? Or does it not matter at all, once you reach a certain level?

Like Unkillable Cat, I never managed to figure out if the dual-wielding bonuses are applied as per the rulebook. EOB hides a lot of that information from you, unfortunately.

 

[pdesbois]

Thx DaveO for the links, one I had already and doommaster 1994 is actually for Pool of Radiance (doom master is actually very funny narrating his EOB2 and 3 ventures with an almost complaining tone, ha ha ha!).

Thx Cat for the heads up - I had absolutely NO idea the racial bonuses were not implemented! That practically kills Elves. May I ask how you know that ? Or better, how accurate do you now the manual to be, there are some parts that say e.g., that having primary attributes > 15 or 16 increases experience earned by 10%.... Or that Wisdom and Intelligence affect the # spells cleric and mages may have... Any truth in that?

Also, about Rangers, all 3 manuals say 'when wearing leather or lighter armour', and I took that lighter meant anything < Plate (Chain, Scale, Banded)...

About the puzzle, it was my bad, as the beginning plaque said something about 'bones down', and I just pulled them once I guess... ARGH!

But thanx all, I did not expect so many answers so quickly!

And circ, I played LOL ( ) a long time ago... I remember a dreadful area, about some spirits and snakes, destroying my guys, but I never really enjoyed it as the EOB 1-2. Maybe in the future...

EDIT: Managed to complete Mausoleum 1st fase, thx for the details.

 

[Fowyr]

While he can open some doors in EOB1, there are also available keys to cover every locked door you'll encounter.

There is shortage of one dwarven key, what may make you miss Flame Arrow scroll if you open both doors in some area.
Also 1st edition demihumans in the high-level and mid-level campaigns sucks. There is no sense to bring anyone except elven thief.

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

Probably most will agree on 3 of 4 of my EOB 1 members that I carried all the way t hru EOB2 and are doing obviously fine in EOB3 so far[...]

It's been more than 15 years, but I remember importing a party from EOB2 made EOB3 incredibly easy (not that it was too hard to start with), so like everyone says, I wouldn't worry about the ranger choice too much. The real problem is that the game is really lacklustre even when considered only in the context of the EOB series. As circ suggested, Lands of Lore is probably a better choice if you're looking for a Westwood-style dungeon crawler.

 

[octavius]

EotB series sucks. Try Lands of Lore or Ultima Underworlds instead, similar but unsucky.

Or Dungeon Master and Chaos Strikes Back, which is in the same style, but with poorer/less varied graphics but much better puzzles.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Thx Cat for the heads up - I had absolutely NO idea the racial bonuses were not implemented! That practically kills Elves. May I ask how you know that? Or better, how accurate do you now the manual to be, there are some parts that say e.g., that having primary attributes > 15 or 16 increases experience earned by 10%.... Or that Wisdom and Intelligence affect the # spells cleric and mages may have... Any truth in that?

In the proper order:

EOB 1 and 2 shipped with a printed reference card, nowadays known as "patch notes". Those state clearly that no racial bonuses to weapons apply.

The EOB manuals are actually not very accurate. The manual for EOB1 is next to useless, while the EOB2 manual at least has the tables at the back to help you understand how the game works "under the hood". The EOB3 manual is the most accurate of them all.

The cluebooks, if you can find them, are closer to being 100% reliable than the manuals, but even they are wrong on a few cases, and do not tell you everything.

As for attributes: Strength, Constitution and Dexterity work as they should and as stated in the manuals. Charisma and Intelligence are USELESS and do nothing. Wisdom is only useful for Clerics for the extra spell slots.

The 10% bonus for having your primary class attribute very high is NOT in the game.

Also, about Rangers, all 3 manuals say 'when wearing leather or lighter armour', and I took that lighter meant anything < Plate (Chain, Scale, Banded)...

Leather Armour is the lightest armour in the game, barring Elven Chain and Cloaks of Protection. The manual is saying that wearing any of the aforementioned armours (or none at all) will let the Ranger keep his dual-wielding bonus. Anything heavier than that should make the Ranger lose his bonus.

And circ, I played LOL ( ) a long time ago... I remember a dreadful area, about some spirits and snakes, destroying my guys, but I never really enjoyed it as the EOB 1-2. Maybe in the future...

The top level of the White Tower. That level is a game-killer for many because the monsters completely ignore the walls, and have some very strong ranged attacks. You WILL get surrounded there, and being able to kill the spirits quickly is vital to get through alive. If you ever revisit the game, two suggestions for this level are: Get the two Emerald swords from the forest, as while they appear weak against normal monsters they're VERY powerful against undead. Also, find Vaelan's Cube. You'll need to find one to pass Scotia's barrier, but just past it you'll find another one. The cube's attack mode devastates spirits.

EDIT: Managed to complete Mausoleum 1st fase, thx for the details.

Good to know. If you're curious, the "goal" of the Mausoleum is to get two things: The Amulet of Friendship and the Rod of Restoration. The Amulet of Friendship lets you get through the forest area you'll be going through next, while the Rod of Restoration casts the Restoration spell, which "heals" you of any draining effects.

The thing is, you don't need either item. At the very start of the forest area (not the graveyard that you start in) there is a passage through some thorns, beyond it is an Everburning Torch. This torch does the exact same thing as the Amulet. There's no difference.

As for the Rod? While you will come across monsters that temporarily drain stats, there's only one monster in EOB3 that drains levels, and that's the Wight. Where will you find Wights? Better yet, where will you find all the monsters that drain you? In (or just outside) the Mausoleum. After you complete the Mausoleum, there will not be any more monsters that drain you of anything, making the Rod of Restoration USELESS. So the only reason to go into the Mausoleum is for the loot and the XP, possibly for the NPC.

If you've been smart while playing EOB3, you've been casting True Seeing to help you around. If not, do so now. Always have Haste and True Seeing the first spells you cast after you have rested.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

There is shortage of one dwarven key, what may make you miss Flame Arrow scroll if you open both doors in some area.

Ah yes, I remember that now. You're right. However, since you can reach both sides of one of these doors without ever opening it, you can safely skip opening that door. That leaves you with a spare Dwarven Key to get to the room with the Flame Arrow scroll (and the scroll of Slow Poison and Healing Potion).

But then again, as Flame Arrow doesn't port over to EOB2, and it's not that great a spell, it's not that big of a loss.

 

[pdesbois]

Dungeon Masters... yes, how I remember that one... The 'invisible enemy' that my friend, my bro and I so much dreaded.

He was everywhere, dealing out damage when we least expected, was a real scar to us, till we noticed what was happening was we were just taking one step further towards the walls and hitting them, getting hurt. And then there was this big laughter, about the legend of the terrifying 'invisible enemy'...

I also remember we had some sort of barbarian in the team, that looked like Chewbacca, and when we found some sort of cheese, my friend was going to place it under chewey's inventory, and before he did that I strongly objected:

- Are you nuts - giving the cheese to the barbarian? And if someone gets hungry, goes looking for that cheese and finds NOTHING, coz the barbarian ate it, what then???

And that sounded so reasonable, that he immediately moved it to someone who mixed potions. So reasonable for like 10 seconds, till we started asking ourselves if any game would really take that into account. And then, another big laugh... Well - not so fancy after all: in EOB2 Insal will actually rob you off some stuff when you free him and t hen rest.

I remember the Emerald sword in LOL - I only found one. The cool thing was that initially it looked like crap, THEN I found some book in the library and reading it gave me the hint that it would work wonders vs Undead. It is this sort of shit I am looking for. I like puzzles / riddles that demand inteligence and creativity, so if LOL has these (do not remember LOL much in this sense, and never heard of Chaos Strikes back, is this the continuation of DM?), then I may give it a try.

Thx folks, you've all been very helpful .

 

[Marquess Cornwallis]

never heard of Chaos Strikes back, is this the continuation of DM?

It was technically an expansion to Dungeon Master but the difficulty was considerably higher. If you're interested, you can try the remake Return to Chaos; it includes Dungeon Master, Chaos Strikes Back and Dungeon Master II.

 

[Sceptic]

Also, find Vaelan's Cube. You'll need to find one to pass Scotia's barrier, but just past it you'll find another one. The cube's attack mode devastates spirits.

This is one of the most interesting choices you have to make in LoL. The Cube is absolutely priceless against undead AND regenerates your mana, so you can spam the cube attack, heal, cube, heal, until every ghost is dead. However, you need that 2nd cube to get into Yvel, and going there first makes more sense and makes the rest of the tower more straightforward. The floppy version of LoL was bugged so that you could endlessly duplicate the Cube and therefore get to Yvel AND have a duplicate to use in the Tower, but that got fixed by a patch and in the CD version.

 

[pdesbois]

I think I should have been to these forums earlier, as I am tempted to play these games again.

I am on PC and have installed DOSBox 0,74, I think I can install them, but is t here anything I should know regarding installing / saving?

Also, are there walkthrus for LOL and Return to Chaos?

thx.

EDIT: Oh God - the Hall of Champions!!! ALl those funny characters, ha ha ha... Chewey is there! Man, I think I am going to start this after doing some reading - wanna know what each character can do, how skills work, etc...

I am talking about Return to Chaos, which the programmer advised to start.

 

[Fowyr]

Use "-cdrom" key to mount your cd disk, install normally. Dunno, it depends on what version and in what condition you will find game (original iso, archive of cd version, archive of floppy version, cd-rip... )
Also where is a plenty walkthroughs for LoL, try gamefaqs or something like it.
Also my experience with Dosbox pretty limited, because I don't really need it.

 

[chzr]

you can find most walkthroughs on gamefaqs or the-spoiler.com but often you will find the same guides on both sites anyway.

as mentioned, most of the things are just unrared and started in dosbox, unless you take the time to search for cd versions which are sometimes quite hard to find.

talking about crawlers, you might also like ravenloft 1/2 (you can import the 2 main characters into the sequel). don't bother with menzoberranzan.

 

[pdesbois]

I just have an Oldgames folder in my C:, as suggested by the DOSBox tutorial, and created an RTC sub-folder, where all the stuff from the zipped file is (and actually executing the RTC.exe immediately starts the game).