The "I am actually playing DXHR" thread.

[Roguey]

People using sticky cover because it gives them an advantage, then complaining about it when it's not necessary to use it.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/235142729137391136 http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/235146147746808726

Enjoy your garbage gameplay. Heh, intelligence. I'll take the critical-if-positive opinion of someone whose tastes I know are in line with mine over some mole popping clunky-gameplay lovers.

 

[Castanova]

ffs to think I used to delude myself into believing that Codex actually has a higher ratio of intelligence people than other forums

Says the drooling fanboi who memorized important details like how long the flight to Antarctica took.

I guess you didn't notice that your beloved game doesn't even allow you to put a silencer on the sniper rifle? Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if you shelled out for the pre-order bonus and assumed everyone gets the e-peen rifle by default.

I'm not complaining that firing an un-silenced gun draws attention to you. I'm talking about how it is (poorly) implemented. Or is that too much for your superior intellect to understand?

Regardless of whether you fire a gun or not, enemies in a totally different region of the level don't know where you are. If you fired a gun 10 minutes ago, however, the enemies are suddenly bestowed with the Sixth Sense and come running for you if you approach 100m of their location even if they didn't see you coming. That's called lazy design.

I get the point - you jerk off to DE:HR nightly. You are free to do so. Stop pretending like you have to be retarded to find any faults with the game.

 

[Drakron]

I would tend to disagree.

I am not surprised ...

The stealth mechanic in HR is a silly minigame.

No, a silly minigame is that crap on Alpha Protocol when it come to hacking.

You stick to cover in conveniently-designed levels,

Oh boy ...
To start if you want for Stealth to be VIABLE then you have to make level design take that in account, what you are saying is that Levels are DESIGNED with stealth in mind that is in no way different from Deus Ex approach to level design or even Thief, Metal Gear Solid or Splinter Cell.

you get omniscient POV and radar information,

So much bullshit ... why do you people that clearly have not played the game keep spewing crap?
"Omniscient POV" would be Isometric View, it does not have Isometric View as at best it have in Cover 3rd Person View that you cannot pan or tilt the camera, its just like Splinter Cell, a wider degree of awareness does not makes you omniscient and yes, the Radar is useful but unless you upgrade then its certainly not omniscient.

and you jump from sticky cover to sticky cover while none of the retard AI is looking.

And the bullshit continues.

The AI is quite reactive, its better that I am as I had a guard manage to spot me when I was crouching on top of a box on the upper level on the TV studio from nearly across the room as I could BARELY make a visual contact with him and he was reacting to seeing a sleeping guard.

Same level had the Heavy coming up to investigate footsteps because he heard me on top of the area exit that was outside any of the patrolling enemies.

They also react to head pooping out of cover, noise, open vents ... but lets ignore all that, lets ignore that in the prologue I seen TWO SpecOps standing back to back and COVERING the room entry/exit points at ALL TIMES (I had to throw a extinguisher to make then move), lets ignore there is a VERY fine line of making the AI capable enough and too good were in that case Stealth becomes a non-option as there are no means to fooling the guards ... unless you made "conveniently-designed levels" were you are out of sight and sound.

But that does not matter for you dipshits that have to complain about something, I would say programing a guard AI is easy because it can be set to detect and zoom in on the player at all times, its also easy to place enemies so their FoV is covered by another NPC, its easy to design levels were NO COVER IS AVAILABLE but what happens is YOU ARE DESIGNING A RUN-AND-GUN SHOOTER, NOT A STEALTH GAME.

It's like Frogger.

I never played Frogger and I doubt you have.

Now, I didn't play an up-close stealth character in the original so maybe this qualifies as an improvement... but I'm not going to give credit to a developer for failing a bit less than a 10 year old game.

So let me get this ...

The shooting in the original was fine.

... your complain is that Human Revolution is LESS that a FIRST PERSON SHOOTER that the original one because that is what you are saying.

The AI in the original was dumb too but it's certainly not any dumber than the new game.

The AI in the original did not reacted to open vents, had much smaller visual range detection and little to no Vertical Tracking and Sound Detection, that is hardly a surprise as they were the standart Unreal Engine AI.

Plus, in the original, I played a sniper-wielding, hacker. I was allowed to use this playstyle throughout the entire game.

And I am calling bullshit on that because in many areas it was a corridor shooter, your options were killing then as in a 90's shooter or sneak behind then and knock then out.

In DE:HR, you find like 20 sniper bullets the entire game and if you ever dare to shoot someone with the sniper rifle every enemy in the entire sub-section of the level is immediately alerted to your presence and their vision is suddenly upgraded to allow sight outside of the two feet in front of them. It's almost comical how bad some of these design decisions are.

This is why nobody gives a shit about the Codex because this type of ... lets call then "arguments" are inaccurate falsehoods.

To start you can, *gasp*, BUY Sniper Rifle Ammo.

Now in Deus Ex the Sniper Rifle could, in fact, be Silenced as in Human Revolutions it cannot (unless its the Silenced sniper rifle that is a per-order exclusive) so when you use it the, according to you, as dumb as the original AI will look for the sound source and that means they WILL spot you.

So did you silence the original Sniper Rifle and are comparing it with the Deus Ex version that cannot be Silenced?

And that lead us to if the AI is as "equal dumb" why is Human Revolution being able to acquire you were Deus Ex just run like scared chickens because you are outside their visual range?

The only "comical bad" is this type of flawed arguments that are inconsistent with each other, you cannot claim the AI is "equal bad" and then complain the AI can actually DETECT THE SOUND SOURCE of a shoot and visual acquire you since that means Deus Ex Ai was nearly Blind and Deaf.

Also if Deus Ex allowed Sniper Impunity that meant a LEVEL DESIGN FLAW as its certainly a bad idea to allow ONE weapon to completely render the AI incapable of dealing with it.

 

[SoupNazi]

Says the drooling fanboi who memorized important details like how long the flight to Antarctica took.

I guess you didn't notice that your beloved game doesn't even allow you to put a silencer on the sniper rifle? Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if you shelled out for the pre-order bonus and assumed everyone gets the e-peen rifle by default.

I'm not complaining that firing an un-silenced gun draws attention to you. I'm talking about how it is (poorly) implemented. Or is that too much for your superior intellect to understand?

Regardless of whether you fire a gun or not, enemies in a totally different region of the level don't know where you are. If you fired a gun 10 minutes ago, however, the enemies are suddenly bestowed with the Sixth Sense and come running for you if you approach 100m of their location even if they didn't see you coming. That's called lazy design.

I get the point - you jerk off to DE:HR nightly. You are free to do so. Stop pretending like you have to be retarded to find any faults with the game.

Actually, you don't get the point of anything, and instead just continually emphasize your own lack of intellect. I have stated now and before that HR has many flaws that can be pointed out, criticized, and given the appropriate resources (time being one of them) and a fresh set of eyes, they could be fixed as well. I don't mind anyone taking a jab at the way the boss fights were handled because yes, it was an extremely poor implementation that felt out of place of the game. On the other hand, complaining that they were too hard is nothing but a subjectively tinted hyperbole of that part of the game's difficulty that says nothing about actual game design. Similar to the boss fights, there are a few more faulty game mechanics and decision that can be criticized but the thing is, the Codex, much to my chagrin, is collectively acting like a 12 year old when criticizing these flaws. Actually, I should say "complaining", because barely anyone has criticized the game so far.

Likewise, I noticed very well that you can't place a silencer on a sniper rifle and found it rather lacking, and it's something that can definitely be mentioned as a (minor) flaw. Nothing outstanding, but the game could have had there. On the other hand, anyone playing with the preorder bonus rifle will eventually concur that it feels like a cheat, and so maybe, it's actually the better gameplay decision to leave silenced sniper rifles out. I wouldn't know - I didn't use those items.

Interestingly, you continue to ramble without any direction or even sense; I don't know if it's the unnecessary exaggeration that's throwing me off but I can barely comprehend your example, so either it's nonsensical or poorly construed. Enemies forget all about you after 10 minutes (their alertness lowers) so no, they don't come running to you when you enter the next area. That's about as much as I can dissect from the messy paragraph of words you posted.

 

[Castanova]

To start if you want for Stealth to be VIABLE then you have to make level design take that in account

Sure, but DE:HR takes stealth to a ridiculous level of convenience. Enemies are always programmed to turn their back from the entrances/exits periodically, cameras are illogically placed, you never have to rely on your augmentations.

I mean, think about this. A game about you powering up with augmentations makes the stealth gameplay so easy THAT YOU NEVER HAVE TO USE AUGMENTATIONS. You mention a situation where you had to throw something to distract guards. I never faced a single situation like that. Ever. I played through the entire game sneaking by the enemies using no tools and no augmentations. I bought Cloak and never used it. It was pointless.

There is copious opportunity to design the enemies and levels to require augmentation use. It's not unreasonable to expect a stealth player to buy stealth augmentations by a certain point in the game. But no. The stealth gameplay literally never evolves AT ALL past what you see in the first mission. The only thing that changes is there are more enemies and, if you get detected, you might get killed faster.

"Omniscient POV" would be Isometric View

You took this literally? Your POV is effectively omniscient since you can see where enemies are facing on the minimap and if they're not on the minimap there's a very good chance they can't see you.

The AI is quite reactive

You're right. The AI reacts. The way it reacts, though, is completely retarded. They walk slowly toward the source of the noise. Stand there for 30 seconds doing nothing. Mutter a dumb voiceover line and return to their patrol route. I won't harp on this point much though because a realistic version of AI would indeed make stealth completely impossible. That being said, this implementation was a little too dumb.

I never played Frogger and I doubt you have

Huh? It's not like it's a rare game. But then if you're struggling for a way to insult me...

So did you silence the original Sniper Rifle and are comparing it with the Deus Ex version that cannot be Silenced?

Nope. Read my previous post.

 

[Castanova]

Actually, you don't get the point of anything, and instead just continually emphasize your own lack of intellect..

I can barely comprehend your example

Herp derp.

What happens when you fire a non-silenced gun? The alert goes off.

What happens when you kill everyone in the immediate area? You move to the next area.

What happens when you move into the next area and the alert is still on? The enemies miraculously know your exact location even though they haven't seen or heard you.

Why? Because it's the best game since 2004, obviously.

 

[SoupNazi]

That's why I couldn't understand it: it doesn't make any sense, because it's not the truth.

 

[Castanova]

Apparently you played the awesum version then. If I still had the game installed, I'd record a video for you.

 

[sea]

Sure, but DE:HR takes stealth to a ridiculous level of convenience. Enemies are always programmed to turn their back from the entrances/exits periodically, cameras are illogically placed, you never have to rely on your augmentations.

When alarmed, enemies (especially trained ones) will frequently work in teams to cover entries, exits and perform thorough searches of the room. One will go sound the alarm while the others secure the perimeter. In combat, they will use suppressing fire while others try to get in close. On patrol, they will often look around and make unexpected stops along their routes, investigate disturbances (misplaced objects, noises, open doors and vents, footsteps, etc.). Yes, if you take tons of time to master the game and memorise every AI patrol route and action, and specifically try to break it, you will be able to exploit it and it will look a bit more transparent. But that is the same of any other game out there, and I don't think any game doesn't have these sorts of issues. There are other games with better AI, yes, but there's nothing outright bad about Deus Ex's save for the occasional boneheaded moves that pretty much all other AIs do as well.

Regarding level design, well, the fact is, when you have to build a level to accommodate both a fixed narrative and multiple play styles, you're never going to get as perfectly designed environments as in a game where you have intimate foreknowledge of the player's abilities, potential tactics, and don't have to accommodate anything beyond what you have expressly allowed. That said...

How are cameras poorly placed? They almost always cover main routes and often side routes as well, areas with sensitive information, offices, armouries, etc. Sometimes they'll even be placed back to back to get you off guard. Furthermore, there are many situations when, combined with enemy patrols, remaining undetected is extremely hard, because taking the guards down almost always means the camera will spot you or the body. Do you have any concrete examples that cameras are poorly placed on a consistent basis?

There are many situations where one needs to rely on augmentations. Rushing enemies on the hardest difficulty is deadly, and especially in the final 1/3 of the game, they become keen enough and strong enough that certain tactics are simply impossible to use against them. Faster sprinting, silent running, jumping around the environment, using the Icarus landing aug, cloaking, smart vision etc. all become more useful and necessary later on. Go ahead, try sneaking through the final level or two of the game without alerting a single enemy, without using any augmentations (not even passive ones), and without resorting to takedowns or knock-outs of any kind, on the hardest difficulty. I'll wait.

There is copious opportunity to design the enemies and levels to require augmentation use. It's not unreasonable to expect a stealth player to buy stealth augmentations by a certain point in the game. But no. The stealth gameplay literally never evolves AT ALL past what you see in the first mission. The only thing that changes is there are more enemies and, if you get detected, you might get killed faster.

Enemies do actually become significantly more acute and paranoid in the later stages of the game. It even ends up where if they're expecting Jensen, they'll often activate alarms prematurely even if they haven't directly spotted him. They also perform more thorough searches and stay alarmed for significantly longer periods of time. Exactly what does the game need to introduce to make stealth gameplay more interesting? Where is the deficiency here? Does it need to have enemies that can noclip through walls or something?

 

[Cassidy]

If at the very least shadows aren't considered to define whether one will be spotted or not, then the "stealth" most likely sucks(Alpha Protocol). If both shadows and the type of floor you're stepping over matter when you want to move around undetected in the game, then the stealth mechanics are most likely awesome(Thief: TDP).

Deus Ex was done in the first Unreal Engine and it featured lighting influencing chances of enemies spotting JC. That is why it had true stealth gameplay unlike this questionable sequel, even though it was obviously inferior to Thief's.

Just like skyway, fanboys also never change.

 

[Wyrmlord]

The bad stealth does not matter, because this is not a stealth game. The highly unstable aiming does not matter, because this is not a run-and-gun game either, and because you can get an augmentation to solve that as well. The so-so AI does not matter, because physical enemies aren't the only things you have to handle.

No, gentlemen, this is a variety game. You know, it has a bit of everything. Including a cheat code mode with Typhoon and other augmentations. And what makes variety games fun is that even though you have a half-assed version of everything, it's fun that you still have all those things.

The fun is basically in screwing around and trying all those things, like throwing a gas grenade and releasing a security bot on the Belltower guards coughing about. Or throwing an explosive barrel on one group of mercenaries to lure the others and then using Typhoon on them just as they come close to you. Or uncloaking in front of five guards and surprising them with a heavy rifle - killing two or three of them instantly.

 

[Satori (original)]

No, gentlemen, this is a variety game.

Because it cannot do one simple fucking thing right.

 

[Multidirectional]

No, gentlemen, this is a variety game.

Because it cannot do one simple fucking thing right.

So you don't like RPG genre, huh?

 

[Wyrmlord]

Hey guys:

DX:HR

HR = Health Regeneration lololololol

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Played the tutorial and the hostages mission. Hostages mission was decent, game shows a bit of promise but I'm not blown away. In the tutorial, two guards came out of a door looking for me, turned to face down the corridor then walked backwards into me for no real reason. Good AI.

 

[Black Cat]

I did enjoy the game myself, but...

Yes, if you take tons of time to master the game and memorise every AI patrol route and action, and specifically try to break it, you will be able to exploit it and it will look a bit more transparent.

Which is kind of a problem when taking tons of time to master the game and memorise every AI patrol route is something usually considered expected in serious stealth games. Also, tons of time? Most enemies have very simple patrol routes and only react to a very small variety of disturbances. There has been no area I have spent more than ten minutes or so memorizing and timing the enemy patrols, and most of of the reason to not leave disturbances behind is LARPing. If you believe ten minutes is a lot of time the stealth genre is not for you, really.

How are cameras poorly placed? They almost always cover main routes and often side routes as well, areas with sensitive information, offices, armouries, etc. Sometimes they'll even be placed back to back to get you off guard. Furthermore, there are many situations when, combined with enemy patrols, remaining undetected is extremely hard, because taking the guards down almost always means the camera will spot you or the body. Do you have any concrete examples that cameras are poorly placed on a consistent basis?

They are little more than a delay of a few seconds, at most, in your timing.

There are many situations where one needs to rely on augmentations.

That's a lie. Outside of boss fights, which are ridiculous by themselves, you can clear the game as an unaugmented ghost, which is the only way to make it actually difficult. The augmentations are not needed to clear the game, they are there just to make things you find hard kind of easier.

Go ahead, try sneaking through the final level or two of the game without alerting a single enemy, without using any augmentations (not even passive ones), and without resorting to takedowns or knock-outs of any kind, on the hardest difficulty. I'll wait.

That's kind of cheating, given some of the levels have some bad design choices making impossible to clear them without, some times, knocking out one or two enemies. This is mostly because there is no consistent way to lure fixed enemies out of their guard spot, which even Metal Gear Solid and, like, bloody Commandos had.

Enemies do actually become significantly more acute and paranoid in the later stages of the game. It even ends up where if they're expecting Jensen, they'll often activate alarms prematurely even if they haven't directly spotted him.

So? Even if that's true, if they are waiting for you it is because your stealth gameplay was awful before, so it's your fault and not the AI being good at spoting you. I never had that situation, myself, because I was playing the stages so that if anything sees you even for a single second you have to restart the mission. And even then the game was much easier than Thief and the like.

They also perform more thorough searches and stay alarmed for significantly longer periods of time. Exactly what does the game need to introduce to make stealth gameplay more interesting? Where is the deficiency here? Does it need to have enemies that can noclip through walls or something?

Again, if the enemies only become better after having seen you it is an error for the AI of an Stealth game, where being a good player implies never being seen, therefore never trigering the better AI except by being an awful player. The deficiency is with enemies not reacting to most disturbances, different surfaces not making different amounts of noise, and different light levels not being really important. Jesus, most of they time, if at all, they don't even notice the guy who was keeping guard next to this door did dissappear a full half an hour ago.

Also, the lack of enemies that see through walls just as you do. :3

No motion sensors...

And the fact that the enemies rarely are able to counter any of your stealth tricks, even if a trained force in that setting would be packing at least some anti-augmented ninja tools.

The very first mission of Thief had an area that implied the need of more careful stealth than the whole of HR: Towards the end of the mission there's an square corridor being patrolled by two guards separated by about half the total lenght, and the floor makes a lot of noise. There are stretches of, like, that thingie that covers the floors here and there, but instead of one constat segment it is made of several short segments separated by small stretches of naked floor. There is one side room where you need to find a key, and on the opposite side there a big side room, protected by another guard and well lit, that also has a noisy floor and several, uhm, soft thingies around the floor, whatever they are named... Oh, carpets, yes.

So you have to time the two guards doing the patrols to both be between them without being so near the frontal one that he will notice you when turning around the corner nor so far away from him that you will not manage to turn around the corner before the guard behind you turns the corner separating him from seeing you, while jumping from carpet to carpet. Then you need to enter the side room, get the key, and go back to the corridor, repeat that above until you get to the door on the opposite side, and then open the door and enter the other room I mentioned. There, you can either try to use the carpets to get behind the guard and knock him out or you can use your water arrows to douse the torches, then alert the guard with noise so he starts looking for you in the wrong direction, then move through the room in darkness, jumping from carpet to carpet and then slowly moving through, get the item you need, and then hide somewhere until the guard stops looking for you, and then leave without being noticed.

That's good stealth game design. :3

 

[MapMan]

I still dont understand why so many games have static, fixed patrol routes. Its so easy to set up a set of paths and let the npc decide where to go on the fly. Add to that random looking back and to the sides, stopping for a smoke or a phone call and you have very good system. Is it too hardcore for the masses?

 

[Black Cat]

Black Cat posting about western games and the minutiae of stealth mechanics. Truly the end times are upon us.

What, had you not heard about Cat Burglars before?

 

[Roguey]

I still dont understand why so many games have static, fixed patrol routes. Its so easy to set up a set of paths and let the npc decide where to go on the fly. Add to that random looking back and to the sides, stopping for a smoke or a phone call and you have very good system. Is it too hardcore for the masses?

That's not a very good system at all. Stealth games are all about observation, planning, and executing that plan with preferably perfect precision. If you add a bunch of randomization to that then success/failure just becomes luck.

 

[sea]

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchw ... alysis.php

Here, I wrote a 7,500 word design analysis of Human Revolution. I am done talking about this game now.

For like two hours.

 

[sea]

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchwarz/20110910/8406/Deus_Ex_Human_Revolution_design_analysis.php

Here, I wrote a 7,500 word design analysis of Human Revolution. I am done talking about this game now.

For like two hours.

http://i.imgur.com/YPCAr.jpg

I don't like the way I look either. That said, at least I don't look like a murderous asshole in it.

 

[Renegen]

You have the look of a frenchman. You could always google some french model and try to look like that.

I don't know anything about the video game industry, apparently everyone wears t-shirts and look like crap, but if I were you I'd cut my hair, get a shave and put on a proper shirt. The angle should also be dead center, not like they caught you eating. Anyway good luck into the game industry, I never had the courage for it.

 

[waywardOne]

For the sake of potential future employment opportunities, I cannot admit that I am affiliated with the Codex in any way.

Traitor.

 

[deus101]

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchwarz/20110910/8406/Deus_Ex_Human_Revolution_design_analysis.php

Here, I wrote a 7,500 word design analysis of Human Revolution. I am done talking about this game now.

For like two hours.

Fuck me...YOU are one of the reasons of sanity in gamasutra?!

I was close to making some "This" type of comments on one of your posts but...that would be sorta silly m2-ism.


...


If you get a job....can you see if they have a position open for a junior 3D programmer?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Aqualung enabled even more exploration, often opening up brand new sections of levels that would be completely impossible for other players to find

You are an evil man for trying to pass the shittiest augs possible as having any point to taking them at all. There's absolutely no reason to take shit like Silent Running, and especially not shit like Aqualung.

Otherwise, great article.