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Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
On the creation of Icewind Dale 2:

 
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Chippy

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Josh Sawyer: "Existing data structures were hijacked for most of the retrofits. The thing that seemingly was impossible, true 3E multiclassing, was actually pretty easy when I asked Danien if we could expand the character data to include 4 class ID slots and 4 level slots."

Didn't they freak out at Beamdog when somebody mentioned IWD2 multiclassing?. But I suppose they're still introducing bugs to their enhanced editions, so expecting them to tackle IWD2 was a bit much.

-Source code being lost and all that.
 

Acrux

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Josh Sawyer: "Existing data structures were hijacked for most of the retrofits. The thing that seemingly was impossible, true 3E multiclassing, was actually pretty easy when I asked Danien if we could expand the character data to include 4 class ID slots and 4 level slots."

Didn't they freak out at Beamdog when somebody mentioned IWD2 multiclassing?. But I suppose they're still introducing bugs to their enhanced editions, so expecting them to tackle IWD2 was a bit much.

-Source code being lost and all that.

The IWD2 source code getting lost was God's gift to man.
 

Tigranes

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If only all the other source code was lost.

But yeah, IWD2 was essentially some kind of obscure special Achievement challenge mode in a game dev simulator, and tbh they kept the asset recycling and shit to a reasonable level while providing what was a distinct gameplay addition to the IE stable.

Ironically, I think it goes to show that a lot of games out there don't really benefit from all the time spent on story beyond the first 48 hours...
 

NJClaw

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Character creation in IWD2 is hilarious. Since I don't really care about Wizards and skills in this game, the saviors of the Ten Towns are always a bunch of complete retards.

EdgGEOe.png


"You must hurry, heroes! the Legion of the Chimera is upon us!"

"Geeeeeeehhhhhh ehhhhhhhhhhh daaaahhhhhhhhhh baaaaah!"
 

Lambach

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Every time I try to replay IWD2, I completely lose my will to keep playing once I get to the Monk Monastery. The Ice Palace deals the first blow to my will carry on, but the goddamn Monastery just massacres it. Which is a damn shame, because I'd really love to go through the Chult and the Severed Hand again.
 

Lonely Vazdru

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Every time I try to replay IWD2, I completely lose my will to keep playing once I get to the Monk Monastery. The Ice Palace deals the first blow to my will carry on, but the goddamn Monastery just massacres it. Which is a damn shame, because I'd really love to go through the Chult and the Severed Hand again.
If the trial chambers bother you, it doesn't take long to slaughter the monks.
 

Jvegi

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I've finished Chapter 5 (fuck the haters).

Did a bit of level squatting, even added a lvl1 1hp character for one fight. On one hand, it means the game is boring me because I'm tempted to break it, on the other hand I got bored with cheesing very quickly and I'm back on track with the Severed Hand to go through.
 

laclongquan

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Is HoF worth playing? Is it really? I think I should wait for the EE, experience the changes with a balanced party, and then go through HoFEE. If I play the original HoF now, I'll probably get burned out and not play the modded version.
I think it's better to wait a couple of months, focus on real-life stuff, and then go back.

Do I have to go through HoF with the party I've finished the game with?
Do you have an idea if IWD2EE has a chance of cooperating with IWD2 Tactics?

HoF mode is completely worth playing, especially with a party you just finish off the hardest difficulty. A real challenge.

It could be done with a newly created party, but my judgement is that a real masochist endeavour for the M crowd. No fun at all.

If you feel it's too intense, just play it slow and maybe 30-40 minutes per session per day.

EE? Why? HoF is there from day one and can be completed without any of that EE stuffs.
 

CappenVarra

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Code:
rand = [rand 5-100, increments of 5]

if (![Enemy BLIND])
{
   enemyDiff = max( ([Enemy CREHIDEM.2DA->HIDEMOD] + [Enemy WISBONUS] + [Enemy CLASSLEVELSUM]) * 5, 0)

   if (enemyDiff + rand < HIDEINSHADOWS)
   {
       // Succeed (continue checking)
   }
   else
   {
       // Fail
   }
}

Difficulty is enemy's detect skill + wis bonus + level * 5 + a random number from 5 to 100 compared to your skill. So a level 10 enemy with no skill points and 10 wisdom still requires a minimum of 55 hide in shadows to beat and a maximum of 150 hide in shadows to be sure of beating it. And that's only for being seen, there's also the equivalent for being heard vs. move silently.

Definitely completely fucked. The "fix" in that thread just fixes lower move silently being better, effectively in vanilla you would always (except very early game with low enemy levels) pass the move silently check and fail the hide in shadows check and with that fix you just fail both.
yeah, to make it properly 3rd ed they needed enemy/creature Spot and Listen checks - and that would work as it does by the book

in 2nd ed variants used in earlier games they possibly had a level-based check for detection? and reused it here?

but is HIDEINSHADOWS (sneaker's Hide skill + mods) * 5 (which would be in line with the rest) or not?

if it was multiplied by 5, then the skill thresholds would be 11-30 (and fine = achievable)?
if not, that's obviously an error
 

NJClaw

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Jesus Christ the battle square challenge in the ice temple. The whole thing is quite retarded on its own, but the fact that certain enemies ALWAYS teleport from the squares to the small room with the rest of your party is too much.

"What? You wasted five minutes buffing and left clicking enemies? Too bad, fuck you, I'm going to fuck everything up."

:despair:
 

Jigby

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Yeah, it's uber annoying. I'm not sure what the rationale behind it was, it's not like those demons can't teleport on their own, they have dimension doorlike innate abilities. You can edit out the arena behavior with NearInfinity, file 41parena.bcs comment out lines 49 and 61 -> compile -> save. They will still be teleporting, but with dimension door instead of that scripted arena nonsense. And with dimension door they only teleport to creatures they have in their line of sight, so no cross-country teleporting.
 

NJClaw

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Yeah, it's uber annoying. I'm not sure what the rationale behind it was, it's not like those demons can't teleport on their own, they have dimension doorlike innate abilities. You can edit out the arena behavior with NearInfinity, file 41parena.bcs comment out lines 49 and 61 -> compile -> save. They will still be teleporting, but with dimension door instead of that scripted arena nonsense. And with dimension door they only teleport to creatures they have in their line of sight, so no cross-country teleporting.
Usually I don't have any problem with the demons, because most of the times you can bring them down before they decide to fuck you in the ass, but those damned Greater Feyr always teleport after the first or second attack. And all of this wouldn't really matter if only the game were able to handle a kill outside of the arena correctly. But NO, that's too much to ask, so that fucking golem absolutely must bug out every single time that happens. Still, after hours of pain and sweat, I finally did it:

maKXoO2.png


Honestly, the battle square is the only part of the entire game that I don't enjoy and that I don't look forward to whenever I start a new playthrough. I love this game so much that I'm able to have fun even with the fell wood and the magma chamber, but the battle square sucks so fucking much.
 
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Code:
rand = [rand 5-100, increments of 5]

if (![Enemy BLIND])
{
   enemyDiff = max( ([Enemy CREHIDEM.2DA->HIDEMOD] + [Enemy WISBONUS] + [Enemy CLASSLEVELSUM]) * 5, 0)

   if (enemyDiff + rand < HIDEINSHADOWS)
   {
       // Succeed (continue checking)
   }
   else
   {
       // Fail
   }
}

Difficulty is enemy's detect skill + wis bonus + level * 5 + a random number from 5 to 100 compared to your skill. So a level 10 enemy with no skill points and 10 wisdom still requires a minimum of 55 hide in shadows to beat and a maximum of 150 hide in shadows to be sure of beating it. And that's only for being seen, there's also the equivalent for being heard vs. move silently.

Definitely completely fucked. The "fix" in that thread just fixes lower move silently being better, effectively in vanilla you would always (except very early game with low enemy levels) pass the move silently check and fail the hide in shadows check and with that fix you just fail both.
yeah, to make it properly 3rd ed they needed enemy/creature Spot and Listen checks - and that would work as it does by the book

in 2nd ed variants used in earlier games they possibly had a level-based check for detection? and reused it here?

but is HIDEINSHADOWS (sneaker's Hide skill + mods) * 5 (which would be in line with the rest) or not?

if it was multiplied by 5, then the skill thresholds would be 11-30 (and fine = achievable)?
if not, that's obviously an error

Possibly. Though this still assumes that the enemy skills are set properly.
 

Jigby

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May 9, 2009
Messages
395
NJClaw I know the pain. All this IWD2 talk made me reinstall it (was playing Siege of Dragonspear so I can cross it off my list, but oh my what a borefest!). Soloing Tactics with a sorc and now I'm in the middle of the second great IWD2 pain - trying to grind out a Tymora Loop out of Saablic Tan. Now I could just use the console, but I've done that too many times in the past. This time I'm doing it properly. Already got 2x Every God Ring and 2x Winter Ring and Tymora drops from the same group.

And that's just a Tymora for one of my ring slots, I have to get another one from Zygma. :dead:
 

Lonely Vazdru

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Honestly, the battle square is the only part of the entire game that I don't enjoy and that I don't look forward to whenever I start a new playthrough. I love this game so much that I'm able to have fun even with the fell wood and the magma chamber, but the battle square sucks so fucking much.

Then skip it instead of coming here to whine about it... problem solved !

Only the first fight is mandatory and the loot is subpar.
 

NJClaw

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Honestly, the battle square is the only part of the entire game that I don't enjoy and that I don't look forward to whenever I start a new playthrough. I love this game so much that I'm able to have fun even with the fell wood and the magma chamber, but the battle square sucks so fucking much.
Then skip it instead of coming here to whine about it... problem solved !

Only the first fight is mandatory and the loot is subpar.
Subpar? The short sword, bracers, and spear are the best items you can get up to that point, and there isn't anything better in the near future. The club does less damage than the flaming star and Belib's everlasting torch, but it hits more reliably. I don't really care about ammunitions, but you get 20 arrows +5 and 20 darts +5 that deal additional 2d6 fire damage. There are also the darts that give you 2 additional attacks per turn, but I don't remember if they do anything else.

You also get a ton of experience from the whole thing.
 

Jvegi

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After carrying a horrific amount of shit for 2 chapters I finally find a merchant on the 4th floor of the Severed Hand. I sell all of it for 700k, and she has nothing worthwhile I could spend that cash on.

Is there any need for cash at that point or should i stock up on her overpriced ammo?
 

Jigby

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Messages
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The best gear you can buy is in Kuldahar from Conlan. Given that you've been there already - no, there's nothing more. I do like the +5 ammunition though. Works against stoneskin and if you're high lvl enough, Isair and Madae are scaled such that they have damage reduction to weapons lower than +5. Also now that I think about it, I like to buy the holdfast arrows from the rakshasa Nathaniel in Dragon's eye lvl 2, works like a charm against the undead six at the Kuldahar cemetery, but you're probably already past that point.

Edit: Also there's that bonus merchant in Kuldahar in Orrick's tower (the air elemental) that you might have missed.
 
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Jvegi

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I'm finally done. Thank god.

The game is a mixed bag. I wish I could say it's a flawed masterpiece, but I don't think it is. I had fun (mostly) though.
The difficulty on Insane took a dive in the last chapter, even with my subpar party (the rouge became useless, and the monk was mostly negligible). The big fights were cool though, I had to reload a few times.

The final battle took me a few attempts and it ended kinda anticlimactically. I was surprised by my party teleporting to the well after opening the door and had no buffs anymore. My whole party got wiped, two members permanently (I'm not sure how exactly). Only my wizard was left. I summoned Mordenkeinen's Sword and smacked one of the siblings from the distance while they were busy with dominated Knight of Xan (or whatever they're called).

I'll have to check out the siblings stats, because something is weird. I thought they were immune to weapons lower than +5, but my +5 arrows and +5 polearm had no effect. Neither did The Black Blade of Disaster. Mordenkeinen's sword did work however, although it's described as +3 weapon. Perhaps they're weaker during the second phase.
 

Lagole Gon

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Pathfinder: Wrath
Yeah, it's uber annoying. I'm not sure what the rationale behind it was, it's not like those demons can't teleport on their own, they have dimension doorlike innate abilities. You can edit out the arena behavior with NearInfinity, file 41parena.bcs comment out lines 49 and 61 -> compile -> save. They will still be teleporting, but with dimension door instead of that scripted arena nonsense. And with dimension door they only teleport to creatures they have in their line of sight, so no cross-country teleporting.
Usually I don't have any problem with the demons, because most of the times you can bring them down before they decide to fuck you in the ass, but those damned Greater Feyr always teleport after the first or second attack. And all of this wouldn't really matter if only the game were able to handle a kill outside of the arena correctly. But NO, that's too much to ask, so that fucking golem absolutely must bug out every single time that happens. Still, after hours of pain and sweat, I finally did it:
To avoid golem bugging out, you have to wait a bit with killing the teleported enemy. The golem has to be near the locked room with the rest of your party when thr final blow lands.
 
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
The game is a mixed bag. I wish I could say it's a flawed masterpiece, but I don't think it is.

What would you say about it beyond mixed bag?

And well done on finishing it. Personally I find it a very challenging game, and at times a bit too much of a grind. I often replay up to the end of the Goblin horde fortress and leave it there. I love the game up to that point. Past there it's a bit up and down for me.
 
Last edited:

Jvegi

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What would you say about it beyond mixed bag?
Can't say anything beyond that, only expand on it. Every single element falls flat at one point or the other.

The first IWD had good story, very well designed encounters with beautiful story justifications for enemy placement, good loot and simple character progression. It was a tight package, with the only serious flaw I can remember being the lack of difficulty in later parts of the game.
IWD2 tries to add many things to that experience, but it feels like the quality assurance was not there. It was clearly a rushed product with many talented people with ambitious ideas.

The itemization is lackluster to say the least. There are many utility items that are essential at early stages, but later on they loose significance because spells do the same things better. There are too many magical items with subpar effects for which you can't find any use. It gets worse later on, in chapters 5 and 6 you're barraged with items that are no better than the stuff you already have and the only use for those items is to sell them. Only there are no actual vendors after Kuldahar. I had only one helmet for my party. The rings mostly give bonuses to deflection and so do the cloaks. Very rarely you find something with a useful effect you can use strategically. Deflection, minor elemental resistance and 1hp per turn regeneration is all you can hope for. It doesn't mean there aren't items that feel nice to find and equip, but they are rare and badly paced.

The story is simplistic with very interesting details that are not developed at all. I also very often felt confused about the reasons for doing something.

The dungeons are ridicules. The only one striking a good balance of story and fighting is imo the Underdark. The Fortress is better, but it doesn't try to strike balance which is a very IWD1 thing and that's awesome. The Ice Temple, Woods, Dragon's Butthole and even The Tower of Stairs have WAY TOO LITTLE combat and way too much backtracking, with little to no clues on how to progress. This is IWD, the combat game. I'd be fine with puzzles, even if most of them are too experimental, but give me good fights in between. The Ice Temple has a lot of enemies, but they're not challenging at all.

The character progression I found to be disappointing. I'm sure it was the shit at the time, but we've seen many games doing much better job with character customization in 3rdE. And even those were not that good. Perhaps with ultra min-max multi-classing approach this system can be fun, but playing it at insane I found very little opportunities to utilize my feats nor felt my choices had any influence on my tactics.

The skills have no use. My rouge was 5/12 and her trap disabling abilities were way too random. Those were the only ones that mattered. Perhaps skills like concentration have an impact, but concentration and knowledge are like the only skills you can invest in. With intelligence higher than 10 investing in skills in classes other than rouge is an exercise in choosing the least useless option. Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate skills have very little use, and you're likely to miss the instances where they're used. Despite the promising first chapter.

I'm shitting on everything, but my point is that everything you do in this game has flaws. Nothing is perfect. Except, perhaps for the RtwP combat.

RtWP in IWD1&2 is cool. You have to pause every second to survive, making it a unique blend of strategy and action. The mechanics of movement and skill use work very nice. It could work much better in the sequel if only you had more opportunities to utilize the system. Very rarely you find yourself in the situation where you fight enemies with varying methods of attack and resistances. Despite the introduction of new environmental factors like exploding barrels, the game fails to introduce unique fighting scenarios on pair with the first game. It happens from time to time, but it's not consistent.

Good things, many annoying things, not developed enough.

Much like ToEE.

I need to play something non-D&D.
 
Last edited:
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Good write-up, Jvegi. Of all your points I agree most strongly with "not developed enough". I wasn't expecting that long a response. Thanks for taking the time to write it!
 

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