Decline The lack of recovery among American RPGs, visualised with graphs

[rusty_shackleford]

American (and Western) RPGs, just like games in general, became a major part of entertainment industry and as such, first and foremost are made as a high return investment. Interesting stories, elaborate quests and complex mechanics are all shunned as potential risks in maximizing sales. Production effort is put on marketing and graphics, because those games are products that don't have to be good, they need to earn as much as possible. This business trend is slowly coming to other regions, CDPR being a great example.

I'm not sure why you guys keep reducing it to "profit" and "more profit", it's "profit" or "company goes under".
The list of western developers that survived the great purge without changing their target demographic is what... Larian and PB? And Larian was on the brink of going under many, many times.
The rest are either defunct or zombie corporations being kept alive by necrophiliac publishers.

Those were different times, times of physical media. There was a limited shelf space, so not all games could be available for sale. If store chain wouldn't buy your game you were screwed and chains were interested only in giving shelf space to games who offered the biggest RoI to them. This forced you to adapt to mainstream taste or die. There are reasons so many people speculate if Troika would be able to survive is digital distribution was a thing back then.

Now there's unlimited shelf space so your game is buried by thousands upon thousands of shovelware titles.
The main takeaway from basically every indie dev I've talked to is they wished they hired someone to do PR/advertising.

 

[Tihskael]

If Todd Howard had made Age of Decadence rather than the Elder Scrolls, it wouldn't have given him a fraction of the wealth, fame, and power he currently possesses.

So what, am I supposed to empathize with his choice to abandon any pretense to artisanship in exchange for a bag of shekles and a place at a wannabe-movie premiere where cheaply bought d-list celebrities shit all over the ‘product’ he was pushing (and totally sidelined his people who actually made it)?

If I had to choose between being Todd Howard or Vince, I'd take Todd Howard's position any day of the week. Anyone else pretending otherwise is a big fat liar.
Video games are entertainment, Todd's money is generational wealth for your family.

Todd has a family?

Yup, married to a schoolteacher if I remember correctly and also has two sons.

 

[Tihskael]

If Todd Howard had made Age of Decadence rather than the Elder Scrolls, it wouldn't have given him a fraction of the wealth, fame, and power he currently possesses.

So what, am I supposed to empathize with his choice to abandon any pretense to artisanship in exchange for a bag of shekles and a place at a wannabe-movie premiere where cheaply bought d-list celebrities shit all over the ‘product’ he was pushing (and totally sidelined his people who actually made it)?

If I had to choose between being Todd Howard or Vince, I'd take Todd Howard's position any day of the week. Anyone else pretending otherwise is a big fat liar.
Video games are entertainment, Todd's money is generational wealth for your family.

Todd has a family?

Yup, married to a schoolteacher if I remember correctly and also has two sons.

Two future chessclub members btw.

Family can be seen here

 

[Nutria]

Todd has a family?

Can we pull one of our surveillance teams off of Avellone and put it on him to confirm this?

 

[Falksi]

So what do people want to happen?

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Artistic integrity is for hobbyists.

And as long as corporate industry keeps grinding them to dust slaving their time away in annualized generic AAA to make a living, we won't have good RPGs. Simple.

Reality is even more grim than you portray. When big company forces artists to grind mediocre products for mass consumption and actively oppose good ideas, artists internalize mediocrity. They will start believing that mediocrity is good and it's the only way to go. The myth of meritocracy plays a role there, artists will start believing that products specifications given by suits are right and that their instincts to oppose them are just a sign of their own arrogance. Wouldn't be surprised if the reason many old devs had turned out to be failures in kickstarter age was due to this mainstream ideas internalization process.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

They will start believing that mediocrity is good and it's the only way to go. The myth of meritocracy plays a role there, artists will start believing that products specifications given by suits are right and that their instincts to oppose them are just a sign of their own arrogance.

And they'd be right. Safe profits > 'passion projects' with unpredictable sale numbers. It's a business, not some snobbish art collective.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

As long as your business can support yourself, it is successful.

And once you have made millions with a hit game, you're set for life.

Now you can just keep realizing your artistic visions with no care for the profit.

That's how it should be done.

If you made millions with hit game then most likely you have a big team beneath you that costs a lot to maintain and is specialized in creating mainstream games. It also means that you have spoiled you way of thinking with mainstream games ideas. It also may mean that you are no longer young. Not the best start to making original and complex games.

 

[Grauken]

Wouldn't be surprised if the reason many old devs had turned out to be failures in kickstarter age was due to this mainstream ideas internalization process.

Maybe they just got old and wanted a comfortable life vs creating something interesting that required slaving away for breadcrumbs

 

[Lord of Riva]

Wouldn't be surprised if the reason many old devs had turned out to be failures in kickstarter age was due to this mainstream ideas internalization process.

Maybe they just got old and wanted a comfortable life vs creating something interesting that required slaving away for breadcrumbs

Old people aren't known to be open for new stuff, it's a bit like in politics. Those who have creative vision are burned out by having to adhere to the old rules until they themselves are too old to create something newly unique.

At least the indie scene is going strong and we get some gems out of it.

 

[Van-d-all]

Artistic integrity is for hobbyists.

And as long as corporate industry keeps grinding them to dust slaving their time away in annualized generic AAA to make a living, we won't have good RPGs. Simple.

Reality is even more grim than you portray. When big company forces artists to grind mediocre products for mass consumption and actively oppose good ideas, artists internalize mediocrity. They will start believing that mediocrity is good and it's the only way to go. The myth of meritocracy plays a role there, artists will start believing that products specifications given by suits are right and that their instincts to oppose them are just a sign of their own arrogance. Wouldn't be surprised if the reason many old devs had turned out to be failures in kickstarter age was due to this mainstream ideas internalization process.

Thankfully I disagree, it's just an opinion though...

So what do people want to happen?

I think that while some people will certainly submit to judgement of their commercially inclined superiors, for most (especially artistically inclined ones) there will always be a bit of internal pride (or vanity) to value own ideas more. This gives me hope, some of them will eventually decide to go rogue and form splinter studios, that should eventually (statistically...) produce something of value.

As for KS failures, my observations lead me to believe otherwise as well - most of the old guys took on guru roles, often over teams lacking experienced regular devs. Effectively between their lack of management skills and the team's lack of technical aptitude most KS flops were an unfinished janky mess - Wasteland 2 looked like shit, and still most locations have NPCs standing in the streets; Numenara's choice and consequence gets less and less relevant the further you go to a point where the entire tides mechanic means shit; don't even get me started on Pillows or Underworld Asstender.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

This gives me hope, some of them will eventually decide to go rogue and form splinter studios, that should eventually produce something of value.

Are you willing to pay double or triple the price of a mainstream game for a higher quality alternative though? Because otherwise, I really don't see it happening. At most you'll get janky games with a good core, but not enough resources to chisel them to the same level as their mainstream counterparts.

 

[Van-d-all]

Are you willing to pay double or triple the price of a mainstream game for a higher quality alternative though? Because otherwise, I really don't see it happening. At most you'll get janky games with a good core, but not enough resources to chisel them to the same level as their mainstream counterparts.

That's the point though - I won't have to. I love eurojank. Most of those sit comfortably at 2/3 AA price ($40) or less, and I'll take interesting game with shit assets over overblown mainstream nothing burger any time. Hence the second tone of entire thread - Eastern Euro games are on the rise.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Thankfully I disagree, it's just an opinion though. I think that while some people will certainly submit to judgement of their commercially inclined superiors, for most (especially artistically inclined ones) there will always be a bit of internal pride (or vanity) to value own ideas more. This gives me hope, some of them will eventually decide to go rogue and form splinter studios, that should eventually produce something of value.

You say you disagree, but I agree with what you say My issue is that even if corporation manages to brainwash only half of the artists, you will get 50% less competent artist. And there are many inbetween stages of corporate culture internalization, you can have people who still want to create novel things, but corporate culture had affected them, so even they dream game/movie may for example be suffering from some stage of disneyfication and have less violence that it would had otherwise.

 

[Dycedarg]

Basically all the american companies making niche RPGs went under or broadened their target demographic because it just wasn't profitable.
It will happen in eastern europe too as the cost of living rises btw.

Can you name those companies? In my view, the problem with american rpgs is the lack of new blood. The american companies making those games were already in the market for quite some time. That's not the case for europe, and I'm not talking about eastern europe only. Dungeon of Naheulbek and Solasta are french, Black Geyser is austrian, and Kenshi is british. And none of those places have low cost of living.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I see nothing to suggest that titles with large production costs are actually the more profitable(or safe) choice over multiple smaller titles.

I see a lot:

- It's easier to manage 1 product than 10
- You will get a better reputation for being a producer of 1 big thing than being a producer for 10 smaller tittles. Never underestimate a CEO ego
- Marketing is the major cost of developing games/movies so I wouldn't be surprised if RoI on products with big marketing was just better than RoI of product with smaller marketing even if production costs are lower
- Large productions are easier to turn into franchises which are all that matters nowadays (also count merchandise here)
- If you get large product out before the end of fiscal year you can affect that year profits and get a fat bonus from your shareholders
- Above point is important also because large products profits are more front loaded than smaller ones who can have a long tail.
- The fact that big products profits are more frontloaded makes it easier to make future decision. You can greenlit sequel quickly.

 

[Infinitron]

The current isometric RPG renaissance is localized in Europe, but it's worth noting that they needed American devs to (literally) kickstart the thing. No Kingmaker without Pillars of Eternity, etc.

It's true that Larian were already doing their own thing in 2012, but I'm not sure they would have been as successful without doing the Kickstarter for Divinity: Original Sin in 2013, which again probably wouldn't have happened without those American devs.

 

[Grauken]

I'm not sure it even makes sense to talk about teams from this or that country since most dev teams these days are heavily decentralized with team members from all over the world

 

[Van-d-all]

The current isometric RPG renaissance is localized in Europe, but it's worth noting that they needed American devs to (literally) kickstart the thing. No Kingmaker without Pillars of Eternity, etc.

It's true that Larian were already doing their own thing in 2012, but I'm not sure they would have been as successful without doing the Kickstarter for Divinity: Original Sin in 2013, which again probably wouldn't have happened without those American devs.

I think that's actually of little consequence when it comes as to where good games are being made nowadays. Sure, bask in that founding father glory, but nowadays US remains relevant mostly as the prime consumer market for digital entertainment at the same time streamlining said market at the macro level towards this mass produced corpo trash you are seeing now. Logically, it would seem it's time for "craft" craze like the one that came for fastfood and alcohol, whatever a "craft game" would be. A vehicle sim with $100 model-exact DLCs probably.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

American (and Western) RPGs, just like games in general, became a major part of entertainment industry and as such, first and foremost are made as a high return investment. Interesting stories, elaborate quests and complex mechanics are all shunned as potential risks in maximizing sales. Production effort is put on marketing and graphics, because those games are products that don't have to be good, they need to earn as much as possible. This business trend is slowly coming to other regions, CDPR being a great example.

I'm not sure why you guys keep reducing it to "profit" and "more profit", it's "profit" or "company goes under".
The list of western developers that survived the great purge without changing their target demographic is what... Larian and PB? And Larian was on the brink of going under many, many times.
The rest are either defunct or zombie corporations being kept alive by necrophiliac publishers.

Those were different times, times of physical media. There was a limited shelf space, so not all games could be available for sale. If store chain wouldn't buy your game you were screwed and chains were interested only in giving shelf space to games who offered the biggest RoI to them. This forced you to adapt to mainstream taste or die. There are reasons so many people speculate if Troika would be able to survive is digital distribution was a thing back then.

Now there's unlimited shelf space so your game is buried by thousands upon thousands of shovelware titles.
The main takeaway from basically every indie dev I've talked to is they wished they hired someone to do PR/advertising.

[Sigh]. The difference is that now you have a fighting chance and before you didn't ever had that. Those companies in the past already had a fanbase, so being found out wasn't such a problem for them. This is not that difficult to understand.

 

[Infinitron]

I think that's actually of little consequence when it comes as to where good games are being made nowadays.

That's true. I think we could still see decent RPGs of the "pixel art indie" variety (along the lines of The Iron Oath or Mechajammer) coming out of the US, but like Morality Games says it's not the ideal place to develop proper AA titles.

 

[Van-d-all]

Mechajammer

Yeah, growing up on Another World, Copper Dreams is pretty much how I envision the making of another classic (Shadow Empire already being my personal choice), but AFAIK those guys at Whalenought are virtually martyrs sacrificing own livelihood to make games. Not a choice many people are willing to make instead of comfy corpo job, especially in places where even health insurance is a job benefit...

 

[fork]

So what do people want to happen?

Nuclear war.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Reverse causality: Codex userbase has become more Euro oriented and everyone's a homie.

 

[Lord of Riva]

American (and Western) RPGs, just like games in general, became a major part of entertainment industry and as such, first and foremost are made as a high return investment. Interesting stories, elaborate quests and complex mechanics are all shunned as potential risks in maximizing sales. Production effort is put on marketing and graphics, because those games are products that don't have to be good, they need to earn as much as possible. This business trend is slowly coming to other regions, CDPR being a great example.

I'm not sure why you guys keep reducing it to "profit" and "more profit", it's "profit" or "company goes under".
The list of western developers that survived the great purge without changing their target demographic is what... Larian and PB? And Larian was on the brink of going under many, many times.
The rest are either defunct or zombie corporations being kept alive by necrophiliac publishers.

Those were different times, times of physical media. There was a limited shelf space, so not all games could be available for sale. If store chain wouldn't buy your game you were screwed and chains were interested only in giving shelf space to games who offered the biggest RoI to them. This forced you to adapt to mainstream taste or die. There are reasons so many people speculate if Troika would be able to survive is digital distribution was a thing back then.

Now there's unlimited shelf space so your game is buried by thousands upon thousands of shovelware titles.
The main takeaway from basically every indie dev I've talked to is they wished they hired someone to do PR/advertising.

[Sigh]. The difference is that now you have a fighting chance and before you didn't ever had that. Those companies in the past already had a fanbase, so being found out wasn't such a problem for them. This is not that difficult to understand.

Agreed, yeah shovelware is a problem but most devs should question their products not their visibility that is where it is lacking mostly. There never has been a better situation for indies (well, maybe a few years ago but that seems negligible).

Steam has been such a boon and I am telling you that out of experience.