Decline The lack of recovery among American RPGs, visualised with graphs

[Cunt Dickula!?]

West Virginia and Montana are our last chance for incline.

 

[Harthwain]

Apart from New Vegas, the Great American RPG has been essentially vanquished by the console invasion and then its already struggling form got kicked around by the journos.

I have a question: how much of the rise of the cRPGs can be attributed to people who were heavily influenced by the DnD (and tabletop RPGs in general)?

Also, I wonder if the rise of the non-US cRPGs past a certain point in time is due to professionalization and businessisation of the gaming industry (increased costs -> increased desire to go for the lowest common denominator as a way of increasing sales in order to make [big] profit).

Hypothesis: The market for the cRPGs got smaller than it used to be and is less lucrative, even if you do manage to pull it off, so American developers are much less focused on making cRPGs (no matter if we talk about "true" cRPGs or cRPGs in name only). As a result you see the developers from non-US areas picking up the slack and making names for themselves (CDPR, ZU/AM, Warhorse Studios, etc.), because making AA(A) cRPGs outside of USA is still profitable there, depending on scale (and there are/were some actual enthusiasts involved in making these games).

 

[Dorateen]

When TSR was acquired by wizards of the coast, it went all downhill from there.

 

[fantadomat]

america is really gay so it makes shitty games. there's your analysis without the graphs, folks.

Nope, the point is that it used to make great games, then suddenly it stopped (together with everyone else). Then others recovered, but America didn't.

Hmmmm or maybe they weren't that great to begin with,and they were just the only producers of such games.

Also who were those top 10 rpgs in the 2012-18 ?

 

[fantadomat]

while retaining his honor and integrity as a craftsman

He's a businessman in the entertainment industry, not an artisan with wealthy patrons that have good tastes in RPGs. Artistic integrity is for hobbyists.

In the current system,sure. It is well known fact that the best art is made by miserable people. That said i dislike modern day system,it is all about profit.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The current isometric RPG renaissance is localized in Europe

Am I missing something? The only one that actually stands out is Underrail and it's almost 6 years old.
Rest are mediocre clones of existing games or not actually RPGs.

 

[Humanophage]

This isn't a new insight.

(a) the American cost of living is too high for AA RPGs to provide a reliable return on investment for any company. It's not fundamentally impossible to make a good AA RPG (Shadowrun: Dragonfall would be the best example in the 2010s), but development is laborious unless the vision is streamlined (like Shadowrun: Dragonfall) to keep development focused and costs down. Anything more complicated always ends up butchered because shoestring budgets can't buy their way out of usual development problems (every Fargo Kickstarter game was always borrowing against the future). A couple million doesn't go far when you are paying dozens of people a professional California salary.

(b) going in that direction, programmers are the nuts and bolts of game development and getting them to stay in the company and/or industry is difficult unless you command AAA budgets. Sacrificing personal income for art was fine in the 90s when even programmers got a chance to voice and defend creative ideas to the development team, with the expectation at least some of these ideas will be accepted and implemented, but now programmers have nothing to do with the developing the creative aspects of content. To the extent there is any fun in programming at all, it is way more fun to it with a physics-intensive action game like Skyrim (hence the large modding community) or Grand Theft Auto than Wasteland 3. It might be possible to get game designers, writers, and artists to stick with your game development company as long as you can pay them, but turnover among programmers is always a problem. You would have to be some kind of idiot to prefer to program for inXile or Harebrained Schemes or any company that might make AA RPGs when you can get a job at Bethesda, ID Software, Rockstar, or some other AAA developer.

Why is it so unprofitable to make cRPGs? Why don't Americans play more of them, like people in other regions? If they did, then it would have been distinctly less unprofitable.

The answer seems to be mainly the post-SNES console invasion which undermined the PC too much in the US, but not elsewhere. Looking at the data above for platforms, might also be that only whites play the PC. Might also be that the devs can bribe the journos more easily since they're nearby, so the more unscrupulous and misanthropic devs who despise games have an advantage. But then they can do it in Canada too, yet it's not quite as miserable.

I'd say it's very simple: Americans don't have any advantage in the market anymore. Back 25 years ago, most people in the world were either too poor to own a good computer or spoke some weird language that made it hard for them to reach a global market. The rest of the world has made huge gains in wealth, education, and English proficiency since then. So now we're competing on a level playing field, except that Americans have to pay more for rent.

Notice that the output of good games from countries like Britain and Japan has also plunged over the same period.

Thing is, it has not plunged in countries like Britain and Japan, nor even really in Canada, only in the US. If you look at the graph, Japan definitely went up, as did Western Europe. In fact, Western Europe is producing more good games than Eastern Europe, it's just the latter had a few major hits. When it comes to strategies, most of the recent good ones are Western European. Field of Glory II is British, Shadow Empire is Dutch/French, Age of Wonders III is Dutch, Rimworld is Canadian, Endless Legend is French, Dominions 5 is Swedish, even Total War: Warhammer 2 is British.

 

[fantadomat]

The current isometric RPG renaissance is localized in Europe, but it's worth noting that they needed American devs to (literally) kickstart the thing. No Kingmaker without Pillars of Eternity, etc.

It's true that Larian were already doing their own thing in 2012, but I'm not sure they would have been as successful without doing the Kickstarter for Divinity: Original Sin in 2013, which again probably wouldn't have happened without those American devs.

Ahhh who knows,maybe they would have made more moneyz without kwan ones. You presume that there is clear correlation between those two.

Also all those kwan kickstarters ended up with shitty game or an unfinished scam like numanuma. The only good one i could remember is the shadowrun games. Kwan is just filled with too stupid people that can't do business,they just fallow like sheep the trends. For to be successful dev in kwan you have live in a cost efficient place. If a studio is on the west coast,it is bound to fail because of living costs. Kwan just doesn't have any regulations at all.

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

Kwan just doesn't have any regulations at all.

What sort do you mean?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Why is it so unprofitable to make cRPGs? Why don't Americans play more of them, like people in other regions?

The answer seems to be mainly the post-SNES console invasion which undermined the PC too much in the US, but not elsewhere. Looking at the data above, might also be that only whites play the PC. Might also be that the devs can bribe the journos more easily since they're nearby, so the more unscrupulous and misanthropic devs who despise games have an advantage. But then they can do it in Canada too, yet it's not quite as miserable.

It's not unprofitable, the codex just doesn't like the kind of RPGs that are most profitable.
Of the 10 best selling RPGs in the past decade I wouldn't be surprised if 8/10 of them are either from USA or Canada. Shit, half of them are probably from Maryland.

 

[fantadomat]

Kwan just doesn't have any regulations at all.

What sort do you mean?

That they have no market regulations in anything really,and it becomes a shithole because of it. Unregulated market ends up in a death spiral where you get say 50k usd per month yet you live like a poor hobo lol. In such broken economy you can't just have a functional low and mid tear businesses. Getting 2 mils on kickstarter is like two months of salaries for a californian studio lol. While if a serbian dude that made underrail gets 2mil.....well that will be incline. The idea that inflation is good and should be pursued is very toxic retardation that the western economics ride,which will end up with massive fuck up in the end.

 

[Cunt Dickula!?]

Britain

Come to think of it. Did the island apes even create ONE good rpg?

France delivers with Arkane Studions and Pierre.

1-0 for France

 

[Nifft Batuff]

One of the main reason I still play games is my discovery of (old) JRPGs in 2016.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

And now I am quoting myself:

If a game company is listed on the stock exchange, it is almost a guarantee that the games will be shit.

 

[Humanophage]

It's not unprofitable, the codex just doesn't like the kind of RPGs that are most profitable.
Of the 10 best selling RPGs in the past decade I wouldn't be surprised if 8/10 of them are either from USA or Canada. Shit, half of them are probably from Maryland.

OK, why is it unprofitable in the US market to make "good" cRPGs with interesting systems and detailed dialogue, but only profitable to make "bad" console-like RPGs with primitive actiony gameplay and cinematic cutscenes replacing all interactivity?

In many other countries, lowbrow console RPGs don't have such an advantage.

 

[JarlFrank]

It's not unprofitable, the codex just doesn't like the kind of RPGs that are most profitable.
Of the 10 best selling RPGs in the past decade I wouldn't be surprised if 8/10 of them are either from USA or Canada. Shit, half of them are probably from Maryland.

OK, why is it unprofitable in the US market to make "good" cRPGs with interesting systems and detailed dialogue, but only profitable to make "bad" console-like RPGs with primitive actiony gameplay and cinematic cutscenes replacing all interactivity?

In many other countries, lowbrow console RPGs don't have such an advantage.

Niggers.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It's not unprofitable, the codex just doesn't like the kind of RPGs that are most profitable.
Of the 10 best selling RPGs in the past decade I wouldn't be surprised if 8/10 of them are either from USA or Canada. Shit, half of them are probably from Maryland.

OK, why is it unprofitable in the US market to make "good" cRPGs with interesting systems and detailed dialogue, but only profitable to make "bad" console-like RPGs with primitive actiony gameplay and cinematic cutscenes replacing all interactivity?

In many other countries, lowbrow console RPGs don't have such an advantage.

cost of development
the idea of someone like sawyer having a quarter million salary in any other country is lol

 

[Kev Inkline]

Funny to think that the best rpg series of all time is produced by a French publisher and developed by its Canadian studio.

I am of course talking about Assassin’s Creed.

 

[fantadomat]

It's not unprofitable, the codex just doesn't like the kind of RPGs that are most profitable.
Of the 10 best selling RPGs in the past decade I wouldn't be surprised if 8/10 of them are either from USA or Canada. Shit, half of them are probably from Maryland.

OK, why is it unprofitable in the US market to make "good" cRPGs with interesting systems and detailed dialogue, but only profitable to make "bad" console-like RPGs with primitive actiony gameplay and cinematic cutscenes replacing all interactivity?

In many other countries, lowbrow console RPGs don't have such an advantage.

cost of development
the idea of someone like sawyer having a quarter million salary in any other country is lol

And having the PPP of a nigerian taxi driver....

 

[SharkClub]

West Virginia and Montana are our last chance for incline.

Country roads...

 

[S.torch]

It's a business

It is not. Take the artist, the writer or the designer out of the creative process and there is no game. Take the corpos out of the equation and ultimately the game will still be made.
It would be rustic, indie, jankie and strange. But it will be, just like it has been before.

That you can make a profit out of games is just a natural result of the artist making something that a group of people want, and they support it because of that.

 

[Roguey]

Come to think of it. Did the island apes even create ONE good rpg?

France delivers with Arkane Studions and Pierre.

1-0 for France

Fab-hahahahahaha

 

[Desiderius]

West Virginia and Montana are our last chance for incline.

Many such cases. What’s the red thing?

 

[Desiderius]

america is really gay so it makes shitty games. there's your analysis without the graphs, folks.

More to the point we're carrying around a ghey empire on our backs and it's gotten pretty heavy.

 

[Morality Games]

It's not unprofitable, the codex just doesn't like the kind of RPGs that are most profitable.
Of the 10 best selling RPGs in the past decade I wouldn't be surprised if 8/10 of them are either from USA or Canada. Shit, half of them are probably from Maryland.

OK, why is it unprofitable in the US market to make "good" cRPGs with interesting systems and detailed dialogue, but only profitable to make "bad" console-like RPGs with primitive actiony gameplay and cinematic cutscenes replacing all interactivity?

In many other countries, lowbrow console RPGs don't have such an advantage.

Niggers.

Actual reason: the same reason why handheld and cellphone games are the only viable products in Japan.

People work too hard to want to play games that are basically a job.

If I had to choose between being Todd Howard or Vince, I'd take Todd Howard's position any day of the week. Anyone else pretending otherwise is a big fat liar.
Video games are entertainment, Todd's money is generational wealth for your family.

Vince can support himself and his family while retaining his honor and integrity as a craftsman while Todd threw all that away for an expensive sports car and the chance to be in the same room as Snoop Dog. Glorifying this level of schysterism is completely un-American.

?

I think you are conflating artistry with craftsmanship.

For what they purpose to do (sandbox exploration-driven first person RPG with meteorically high modding potential), the Elder Scrolls games are best existing product by far. People will be playing, commenting, tinkering with, and thinking about any of them long after they have forgotten about Cyperpunk 2077. They take years and hundreds (thousands?) of highly paid professionals to make, and Todd works hard and runs a tight ship. Lack of craftsmanship isn't an issue.

Now, this isn't to say that any of the Elder Scrolls games aspire to a high degree of art (the only extant example I can think of is Morrowind, with its sheer level of worldbuilding detail). They're well-made, but relatively superficial games.

The same could be said of nearly all Steven Spielberg movie. Well-crafted, entertaining movies, but no deep messages.