Decline The lack of recovery among American RPGs, visualised with graphs

[Harthwain]

But for some bizarre reason, there's a shortage of independent american rpg developers. That's the part I don't understand.

Whenever someone appears, Vogel kills him. There can be only one.

You're quoting wrong person. Just saying.

 

[NJClaw]

Apparently out of thousands upon thousands of indie titles -- the most ever released on steam in a year -- there wasn't a single indie RPG better than Wasteland 3 last year.
If you feel like wading through that shitheap, be my guest. Goodluck finding the few gems.

Good job ignoring the fact that the third game on the 2020 list was an amazing indie Korean game.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Apparently out of thousands upon thousands of indie titles -- the most ever released on steam in a year -- there wasn't a single indie RPG better than Wasteland 3 last year.
If you feel like wading through that shitheap, be my guest. Goodluck finding the few gems.

Good job ignoring the fact that the third game on the 2020 list was an amazing indie Korean game.

"if we just ignore that 99.98% of indie games are pure trash, then there are plenty of great indie games -- a total of 1 released every 5 years!"
yeah whatever

 

[mondblut]

But for some bizarre reason, there's a shortage of independent american rpg developers. That's the part I don't understand.

Whenever someone appears, Vogel kills him. There can be only one.

You're quoting wrong person. Just saying.

Soreh. Dumbfuck xenforo keeps whatever quote is there in the given thread's reply field until one day you post it. Accidents happen.

 

[Darth Canoli]

DAO made Codex GOTY in 2009 because there was barely any competition (Risen and KotC were the only serious contenders). There was no slow rising opinion, people liked it back then but already had some criticisms.

I liked it back then because it was a decent new RPG released during a time of almost no new RPGs.

My opinion lessened over the years though because of how utterly horrible 90% of the game's encounter design is.

I agree about DAO and found it decent/good when i first played it with DLC (aka far enough from release) but you find it worse if you ever replay it and barely playable if you try again later.

But KotC not being 2009 GOTY is a bigger scandal than the Watergate, i hope heads rolled for this.

 

[mondblut]

a total of 1 released every 5 years!"
yeah whatever

Well, that's clearly superior output than anything "AAA". Any natural number is greater than zero.

 

[JarlFrank]

It's not unprofitable, the codex just doesn't like the kind of RPGs that are most profitable.
Of the 10 best selling RPGs in the past decade I wouldn't be surprised if 8/10 of them are either from USA or Canada. Shit, half of them are probably from Maryland.

OK, why is it unprofitable in the US market to make "good" cRPGs with interesting systems and detailed dialogue, but only profitable to make "bad" console-like RPGs with primitive actiony gameplay and cinematic cutscenes replacing all interactivity?

In many other countries, lowbrow console RPGs don't have such an advantage.

Niggers.

Actual reason: the same reason why handheld and cellphone games are the only viable products in Japan.

People work too hard to want to play games that are basically a job.

Then why do people play games that have a lot of grind, since you mention Japan specifically. These people love grind, and grind is essentially a second job.
Mobile games in particular also have a very un-enjoyable, bureaucratic-like gameplay loop. Click on things to harvest resources then wait 1 hour before you can do it again. Spend most of your playtime waiting.

 

[Azdul]

Vince can support himself and his family while retaining his honor and integrity as a craftsman while Todd threw all that away for an expensive sports car and the chance to be in the same room as Snoop Dog.

Left to his own devices, Todd creates juvenile sword and sorcery fantasy with limited commercial appeal. I suspect that he never played tabletop RPG in his life. But with proper oversight, and few senior designers forced on him by corporate overlords - he creates RPG-lite games that sell millions of copies to console kids.

On the other hand - Vince is a shrewd businessman - he gets a good mileage of every terrible sprite he created in MS Paint in 30 minutes 15 years ago - and he will make sure that it will be reused in Spiderweb productions for another 10 years. I'm not sure he's the hero we need - but definitely the one that we deserve.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

a total of 1 released every 5 years!"
yeah whatever

Well, that's clearly superior output than anything "AAA". Any natural number is greater than zero.

so why did wasteland 3 win the 2020 codex GOTY rather than an indie title?

 

[NJClaw]

Apparently out of thousands upon thousands of indie titles -- the most ever released on steam in a year -- there wasn't a single indie RPG better than Wasteland 3 last year.
If you feel like wading through that shitheap, be my guest. Goodluck finding the few gems.

Good job ignoring the fact that the third game on the 2020 list was an amazing indie Korean game.

"if we just ignore that 99.98% of indie games are pure trash, then there are plenty of great indie games -- a total of 1 released every 5 years!"
yeah whatever

What kind of pointless argument is that? You don't have to play the 99.98% of games that are trash, you can selectively play the ones pushed to the top by the rest of the community. Why would I care about the trash if I don't have to play it?

Also, one release every five years? Only last year we got Troubleshooter, Hades, and, if you accept the definition of indie "as a genre", The Dungeon of Naheulbeuk.

so why did wasteland 3 win the 2020 codex GOTY rather than an indie title?

What? An official poll about videogames on the internet that doesn't perfectly reflect quality? Unheard of! Heresy! Why do you use bullshit arguments knowing that they are, in fact, bullshit?

 

[JarlFrank]

a total of 1 released every 5 years!"
yeah whatever

Well, that's clearly superior output than anything "AAA". Any natural number is greater than zero.

so why did wasteland 3 win the 2020 codex GOTY rather than an indie title?

Because Space Wreck and Knights of the Chalice 2 will be 2021 releases, and Titan Outpost and Disco Elysium were 2019 releases.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

What kind of pointless argument is that? You don't have to play the 99.98% of games that are trash, you can selectively play the ones pushed to the top by the rest of the community. Why would I care about the trash if I don't have to play it?

The argument was that the massive majority of indie games are complete trash. Clearly, this is offending people who think video games are some great work of art created only by auteurs.
You guys are the equivalent of hipsters going to modern art shows to gawk at feminists shoving cans of spaghetti-os up their vaginas.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

, and Titan Outpost and Disco Elysium were 2019 releases.

Spoiler

neither of those are RPGs

 

[mondblut]

a total of 1 released every 5 years!"
yeah whatever

Well, that's clearly superior output than anything "AAA". Any natural number is greater than zero.

so why did wasteland 3 win the 2020 codex GOTY rather than an indie title?

codex 2019 GOTY was given away to a fucking visual novel. Codex' supposedly prestigious taste in gaming is somewhat overrated.

 

[Dycedarg]

It's possible. But TTRPGs don't seem to be going nowhere.

"Nowhere" is not the kind of a word I would choose to use in this instance...

I'm glad you liked this version of D&D! I can't wait for Critical Role to create a year long campaign about how genderfluid tieflings have a rough time in high school. And then we'll have the CW adaptation starring the queen of nerds herself, Felicia Day! Seriously, what more can you want?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

a total of 1 released every 5 years!"
yeah whatever

Well, that's clearly superior output than anything "AAA". Any natural number is greater than zero.

so why did wasteland 3 win the 2020 codex GOTY rather than an indie title?

codex 2019 GOTY was given away to a fucking visual novel. Codex' supposedly prestigious taste in gaming is somewhat overrated.

I meant the real 2020 goty, not the fake one rigged by fagipepe

 

[mondblut]

I meant the real 2020 goty, not the fake one rigged by fagipepe

Look, I am not keeping an eye after stupid polls. Normally I don't even vote in them. The only "big" RPG from the last decade I have played was Wasteland 2, and it was mediocre. I'd rather play Grimoire or Kenshi, which are as indie as it gets. That makes it 2:0 to indie games.

 

[JarlFrank]

I meant the real 2020 goty, not the fake one rigged by fagipepe

Look, I am not keeping an eye after stupid polls. Normally I don't even vote in them. The only "big" RPG from the last decade I have played was Wasteland 2, and it was mediocre. I'd rather play Grimoire or Kenshi, which are as indie as it gets. That makes it 2:0 to indie games.

And the existence of such indie games is enough to prove the worth of the concept of a single dev (or small group of devs) working on a passion project and releasing it.

The fact that Steam is getting flooded with six million no-effort stock asset RPG Maker trash and Unity asset flips doesn't delete Grimoire, Kenshi, Knights of the Chalice, Underrail, Age of Decadence, ATOM RPG, Colony Ship, Titan Outpost, the upcoming Space Wreck, as well as great indie games from other genres (like the 4x wargame Shadow Empire, or the Dwarf Fortress clone Rimworld) from existence.

The fact is that indies cater to specific Codexer niches better than AAA devs do, no matter if you're a combatfag, storyfag, explorefag etc.

Rusty believes that the existence of shovelware invalidates the existence of the good indies, which is complete bullshit.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Rusty believes that the existence of shovelware invalidates the existence of the good indies, which is complete bullshit.

I can just as easily turn this around and ask why the codex thinks the existence of Skyrim invalidates the existence of good AAA games

most video games are absolute garbage, indie worship is obnoxious -- as if they produce better games on average(lol not even close)

 

[jackofshadows]

Because Space Wreck and Knights of the Chalice 2 will be 2021

Even if they'll make it to 2021 release (they probably won't) there won't be enough codexers who will actually play them, judged by 2020 poll. I said that rusty's point was strong only because WL3 has been praised highly here by people who actually played it and at the same time little amount have played Dungeon of Nahuybliat, Yakuza or Troubleshooter (including myself by the way). That questions the poll itself though, not the lack of competition with mediocrity that is WL3.

 

[JarlFrank]

Rusty believes that the existence of shovelware invalidates the existence of the good indies, which is complete bullshit.

I can just as easily turn this around and ask why the codex thinks the existence of Skyrim invalidates the existence of good AAA games

Ok now list me the good AAA games.

 

[good fucking shit happen]

The thing with US and cRPGs is the same problem behind most issues that country has: greed and an relentlessness focus on profit over everything else. Big companies make games that will give them the biggest return on investment, while indies create games that can be quickly made and are easy to sell. When you create cRPG you need to put more effort and can expect to get lower profits than you would if you did other genres. The idea of putting more effort for lower RoI literary breaks a neoliberal brain. They can't handle the idea, they are are too cynical for that. It's like trying to teach a dog to do math. A corporate brain rot is antithetical to creating good cRPGs or good anything else.

Do you think third worlders are any less greedy? The idea that you would put in more effort for lower RoI willingly is completely retarded. Niche video games have to appeal to their niche since they can't compete with the big boys and that is all there is to it. Most American developers do not have to make games for people with Asperger but instead can focus on maximizing their audience and profits. It is not only a profitable business model but also the way the most popular games get made. People vote with their wallets in the free market and they will buy what they find fun to play.

 

[good fucking shit happen]

If Todd Howard had made Age of Decadence rather than the Elder Scrolls, it wouldn't have given him a fraction of the wealth, fame, and power he currently possesses.

So what, am I supposed to empathize with his choice to abandon any pretense to artisanship in exchange for a bag of shekles and a place at a wannabe-movie premiere where cheaply bought d-list celebrities shit all over the ‘product’ he was pushing (and totally sidelined his people who actually made it)?

If I had to choose between being Todd Howard or Vince, I'd take Todd Howard's position any day of the week. Anyone else pretending otherwise is a big fat liar.
Video games are entertainment, Todd's money is generational wealth for your family.

Exactly. Not only does Todd make more money but he is also famous and well liked by gamers everywhere. Nobody knows who Vince is. Success on all fronts and all that because Todd provides people with games they actually want to play instead of CYOAs for fedora wearing dweebs on an obscure forum which they end up hating anyway.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Rusty believes that the existence of shovelware invalidates the existence of the good indies, which is complete bullshit.

I can just as easily turn this around and ask why the codex thinks the existence of Skyrim invalidates the existence of good AAA games

Ok now list me the good AAA games.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance

"b-b-but that's not AAA!"
It had nearly 50% more developers than Skyrim had. It cost nearly $40 million to make in an eastern european country.

 

[good fucking shit happen]

Artistic integrity is for hobbyists.

And as long as corporate industry keeps grinding them to dust slaving their time away in annualized generic AAA to make a living, we won't have good RPGs. Simple.

What makes you qualified to call the games which most people choose to spend their hard earned money on bad? Do you think you know better than they what they like to play? What you really mean is that as long as the market continues to work people will not be forced to have the same snobbish video game tastes you have and you want some kind of aristocratic basis of culture instead of one driven by the freedom of the majority. You are just like video game jurnos that demand everyone play their walking sims about black transbians talking about their neovaginas. It ain't going to happen. As long as they have freedom people will vote with their wallets.