The original Tomb Raider, its remake, and the loss of subtlety

[janior]

I like the motorcycle in underworld
and lets be real all TR games pre 2013 would be better off without any combat, they could use the wasted time on combat to make puzzles less disappointing and the level bigger and more complex

 

[Ash]

I like the motorcycle in underworld
and lets be real all TR games pre 2013 would be better off without any combat

Nope. Even the shitty combat is still highly important, just less so than the puzzles and platforming because it is shit.

-Adds purpose to exploration/secret hunting in the form of rewards for doing so.
-Ammo and health management is an important aspect to overall gameplay engagement - skill and strategy becomes more important moment to moment. That's why I get so butthurt about TR3 inventory theft.
-Adds to the atmosphere: gives you something to fear. Fear to enter the water with the crocs. Fear of what lies in the darkness beyond. Fear of more forms of death than just falling and traps.
-Adds to the platforming: acrobatics during combat and watching your footing is the saving grace of TR combat. Also enemies popping up while you're mid platforming gauntlet adds diversity.
-Helps with pacing. There is a slow long puzzle segment for example, and TR like most games at times breaks them up with enemy spawns/encounters.
-Adds more context or personality to locations and Lara herself (she is more badass with gunz murdering wildlife).

All the very best platformers have combat, starting with Mario, all the way through including TR. Without the shitty combat, TR would be a lesser game. At the very least, make it a stealth and running away game if no combat. That will retain around half of the points I made above. It could perhaps still be a good game that way. But puzzles and platforming only? Ehhh...can't think of any truly great platformers without some form of combat.

 

[JarlFrank]

Maybe I didn't make it clear - what i meant is that d-pad is more comfortable for game like that than WASD, at least to me, my fingers get really stiff if I play tomb raider on a keyboard for too long.

You use the arrow keys with your right hand and the other controls with your left (ctrl, alt, space).

 

[Ash]

At the end of the day, anything works if it can accept the necessary inputs. Even conga drums. Someone beat Dark Souls using Donkey Kong spin off rhythm game conga drums. Madness.

I may break and play TR2. Perhaps set myself a rule to only allow up to 4 saves per level or something, but this is NEVER optimal game design, especially in one where instant death traps could be around the corner. There is a optimal saving frequency and location based on the challenges of a level, and only the designer, or at least someone that knows the levels like the back of their hand, can sensibly determine that.

I've made up my mind for sure; TR1 is better than the sequels for this reason alone
If this were not a factor, it might be TR2 though. Hard to say. Both are great. I'm very fond of TR3 also but mostly India and Nevada only. IDK I do need to play it again. Fuck. I guess that means TR3 is next? Save crystal system in that game is decline but better than no restrictions. OK TR3 it is. There might be some raging though because the game is brutal in difficulty + will mug me in an alleyway of all my shit proper British style. Please lord give me the strength to keep away from using save states like a bitch.

 

[janior]

Maybe I didn't make it clear - what i meant is that d-pad is more comfortable for game like that than WASD, at least to me, my fingers get really stiff if I play tomb raider on a keyboard for too long.

You use the arrow keys with your right hand and the other controls with your left (ctrl, alt, space).

thats still as many fingers engaged in movement as WASD, doesn't matter if it's left side of the keyboard or right

 

[Semiurge]

Is that some kind of humblebrag about having big hands?

 

[Ash]

My adventure with Lara Croft in TR3 has begun.

Jungle: This level is mostly perfect. An excellent introduction. Good secrets, cool tiger encounters, decent platforming, great music and atmosphere. Engaging difficulty that is not too easy not too hard.

Temple Ruins: And already we've gone off the rails with many bullshit traps. Boulders dropping with little time to react. Debris randomly dropping from the ceiling and instakilling you. Spike traps with slim margin for error (eh, I still like these, they're mostly fine). This is ultimately still a great level though, classic tomb raiding, I'd just tone down the random debris and boulders.

River Ganges: Now this one felt like a gimmick vehicle level unlike TR2. Hardly any standard platforming, puzzles and enemies, largely all quad biking with worse execution than the TR2 snowmobile. You get bucked around like crazy. It's short however, and does have branching path or two which is nice I guess. Not the worst thing in the world and still engaging, it should just have been better executed.

Caves of Kaliya: very short and unremarkable maze. At least it is somewhat testing to navigate. Culminates in a snake pit in the dark which is quite cool, until a bullshit boulder spawns behind you. The game is mildly generous with its save crystals at least. I have 10, which is almost too much but I will probably need them for the BS traps to come. Anyway after the snake pit is a relatively easy boss...or maybe he is not that easy IDK, I just spammed my shotgun on him (and the Shiva statues in lvl 2) because I lose the ammo soon anyway. It's definitely not a great level, but to be fair TR1 level 4 is quite weak too (Tomb of Qualopec - very short and nothing special also). This is definitely worse in execution though.

2/4 levels worthy so far, which is unfortunate. River Ganges and Caves of K aren't terrible, they're fine even, just feel a little lazy/uninspired/rushed perhaps.

The cutscenes and FMVs are great of course. Sprinting is incline. Crawling is nice largely to hide paths and secrets in less obvious openings, but otherwise doesn't add a great deal. I will probably use it to take cover against the hitscanners in area51 maybe. Merging side step with the walk button to prioritize sprinting makes a ton of sense and nothing is lost. The sound design and engine is a notable improvement, at least over TR1. what sucks though is when picking up items you no longer get an icon on screen. This is weird when the game has quite a bit of darkness and it can be a little difficult to make out what the pickup models are in general. Thanks to temple ruins BS traps and river ganges buckaroo, I've probably already died almost as much as I did in TR1 across the entire span of the game.

Off to Nevada...I guess. Will spam the shit out of the desert eagle on the first map if I find it.

 

[Maxie]

Anniversary is dumbed down and diluted for retards. You hereby out yourself as a retard.

Every time one shows their serious lack of monocle in this way they should be banned for a week. To obtain reentry they have to prove they have played the game in full in that time with a knowledge test.

you're a ridiculous faker

 

[janior]

Anniversary is fantastic
Merry Xmas!!!

 

[Ash]

Anniversary is dumbed down and diluted for retards. You hereby out yourself as a retard.

Every time one shows their serious lack of monocle in this way they should be banned for a week. To obtain reentry they have to prove they have played the game in full in that time with a knowledge test.

you're a ridiculous faker

I fake nothing. You gen z kids could never understand the mindset of a true old school gayma. As you were raised on braindead sellout garbage, you're worlds apart.

 

[Black Plague]

For example, the accelerate button on console is pressure sensitive and how hard or soft you push determines acceleration, just like a real life accelerator.

In TRII from 1997?

 

[Ash]

I was three years off. All the PS2 buttons were pressure-sensitive. Not the PS1.

I am tempted to abandon TR3 already and possibly move on to TR2. It's still a cool game with some great levels but there's too much bullshit. Better kept in nostalgic memory than in reality. The first two games are definitely a fair bit better.

 

[Semiurge]

Off to Nevada...I guess. Will spam the shit out of the desert eagle on the first map if I find it.

If ? It's pretty difficult to miss. There's even a prisoner who practically leads you to it.

 

[Ash]

Oh, I thought you get one on the first Nevada map to play with briefly, before your shit gets taken away. My memory is probably failing me.

 

[Lemming42]

TR3 sort of sucks balls, it's just a mess - every level has something good in it, but it's swaddled under a pile of bullshit virtually every time. I'd love to see a modder go through with a fine-tooth comb, extracting and amplifying the good and dispensing with the bad.

It always looked so gaudy to me visually, too, especially compared with TR1 where everything looked clean and sharp, and TR2 where things looked impressive and grand. Everything in TR3 looks cluttered and weird, some of those South Pacific temples are the ugliest shit ever.

London, in particular, I just hate. Aldwych Station has superb atmosphere, but other than that it's an absolutely horrible set of levels. Antarctica is a decent finish but it's too little too late.

Still the last Tomb Raider game I'd be willing to replay though.

 

[Ash]

Yeah, TR1 and 2 are goats. 3 is cool but tarred with bullshit. Fuck everything else claiming to be Tomb Raider. Except Guardian of Light as a fairly fun couch coop experience, but it isn't Tomb Raider. All the other games are trash. Well, 4 is ok I guess, but I ain't touching it again same as you. I yelled at the end game credits in TR2013. Legend and Anniversary are abominations.

I will say that I really like the visuals of TR3 though. The sound design also. Too bad there's too many gameplay blunders.

 

[Ash]

Also, something interesting to note is somehow, even the combat is a little declined in TR3 (at least so far). In TR1, by the second level as soon as you walk out the door you're getting ambushed by a 4 pack of wolves, then there's a bear around the corner. All of India, well it starts off good with some singular tiger encounters and monkeys, fine for level 1, but level 3 and 4 have almost no enemies, and level 2 largely just throws constant harmless monkeys at you in groups of two, and the occasional stupid snake. Shiva statues are more fearsome in looks than behavior. I didn't take any damage from them for some reason, they just chase you blocking bullets. In all of india, you do not fight a single pack of tigers, whereas most wildlife (Wolves, Lions, Jaguars, Apes, Raptors) typically came in groups of 3-4 in TR1. Perhaps it is dumb realism faggotry at play, as tigers IRL are solitary stalkers not pack animals if I recall. Decline.

 

[Semiurge]

TR3 sort of sucks balls, it's just a mess - every level has something good in it, but it's swaddled under a pile of bullshit virtually every time. I'd love to see a modder go through with a fine-tooth comb, extracting and amplifying the good and dispensing with the bad.

It always looked so gaudy to me visually, too, especially compared with TR1 where everything looked clean and sharp, and TR2 where things looked impressive and grand. Everything in TR3 looks cluttered and weird, some of those South Pacific temples are the ugliest shit ever.

London, in particular, I just hate. Aldwych Station has superb atmosphere, but other than that it's an absolutely horrible set of levels. Antarctica is a decent finish but it's too little too late.

Still the last Tomb Raider game I'd be willing to replay though.

Yeah, the texture work in some areas is pretty busy looking, sometimes even ugly and nonsensical like in the 'Temple of Puna'.

Antarctica on the other hand always leaves a good taste in the mouth, especially the second level 'RX-Tech Mines". Good atmosphaggotry.

Also, something interesting to note is somehow, even the combat is a little declined in TR3 (at least so far). In TR1, by the second level as soon as you walk out the door you're getting ambushed by a 4 pack of wolves, then there's a bear around the corner. All of India, well it starts off good with some singular tiger encounters and monkeys, fine for level 1, but level 3 and 4 have almost no enemies, and level 2 largely just throws constant harmless monkeys at you in groups of two, and the occasional stupid snake. Shiva statues are more fearsome in looks than behavior. I didn't take any damage from them for some reason, they just chase you blocking bullets. In all of india, you do not fight a single pack of tigers, whereas most wildlife (Wolves, Lions, Jaguars, Apes, Raptors) typically came in groups of 3-4 in TR1. Perhaps it is dumb realism faggotry at play, as tigers IRL are solitary stalkers not pack animals if I recall. Decline.

The monkeys are a part of the storytelling. The meteor stones radiate some kind of cosmic energy that eventually drives most humans and animals insane in addition to mutating them, and the monkeys in and around the Infada Stone's resting place are hostile, unlike the peaceful ones in the first level, further away from the stone's influence. There's also the voice-hearing Mad Tony who spent far too much time near the temple ruins. Only Lara seems immune to it, she lugs around all the stones gathered so far, in her backpack. The only time the player gets a personal taste of what its influence is like is during the final boss encounter at the end of Antarctica, where a certain sound effect plays that includes some garbled voices heard earlier in the game. It's supposed to be some kind of psychic projection, or maybe the stone has the power to unlock the "third eye" or something. Anyway this was what Mad Tony was experiencing.

 

[Ash]

So I abandoned Womb Raider 3 in favor of 2. This game is a lot better. The first four levels have been consistently great, the worst being the very first level probably but it's still plenty adequate. There's a lot more combat than 3, and a little more than 1. I don't mind this at all, because while it is sub par I still appreciate it a great deal for the many reasons I listed above, and it's not boring regardless.
My criticisms still apply: game saving and the secret system are shitty, but I am just rolling with it, trying to save in a reasonable frequency (impossible to do, but the effort counts for something) and refraining from looking up the secret locations even if I miss out. Also important to note is that some secrets contain a pickup in addition to the dragon so you still sometimes get something for your efforts, so it's not all bad. One thing I don't like is how fewer pickups there are to find in the environment overall though - the majority come from drops by enemies. Ultimately not that big a deal though, exploration is still fun and rewarding; there's just enough stuff to find. Well, maybe. More on this later as I progress further into the game.
Anyways, most things are moderately escalated from TR1 - puzzle elements, platforming, combat, mechanics, difficulty of individual challenges (too bad about the lame saving). It's great, unlike the bullshit in TR3. Level design however remains approximately the same as the first in scale and exploration so far, which is fine, that's a good standard to follow.
The biggest unnoted incline however, is far less reliance on fucking pushblock puzzles. TR1 is absolutely solid but the overreliance on those was the most painful part. Every level had at least one, but usually multiple.

Great Wall: platforming gauntlet, trap gauntlet, leading to optional x2 T-rex secret. Rather linear, but somewhat engaging and teaching newbies the ropes in hardcore fashion. The least good level so far, but it is still good enough. It also ends in a x2 tiger encounter because it cares not for faggy realism like TR3 it seems.

Venice: absolutely iconic level. Piece together the puzzle of the level and get your boat to the exit gate. Deal with being sniped by dudes from balconies and jetties, which keeps your health pack count humble, as well as groups of melee dudes and doberman. Cool aesthetics and music. Very nice non-linearity. Not a great deal of platforming but that's fine, there's plenty to come. My only criticism of this level is two dragon secrets in very close proximity. Odd.

Bartoli's Hideout: fantastic. Lots of platforming and puzzling here, as well as a moderate frequency of combat and traps. Could be a little less linear but still open and tricky enough. I missed one of the secrets here (some random switch on the wall), and so didn't get the reward thanks to the dragon system. No big deal, I don't want it to be too easy anyway.
I am really not minding the hitscanning at all. It's a nice change from TR1's endless hordes of melee enemies that can easily be dealt with by high ground elevation, then late game enemies that don't really have much strategy nor skill to the encounters. Usually I am staunchly against excessive hitscan combat, but, for now, I am making an exception. Especially when there's still plently melee enemies thrown in the mix anyway. We'll see how it pans out further into the game.

Opera House: classic raiding. Great secrets. Big somewhat open level to be conquered. Solid platforming and puzzle elements. Crazy combat encounters (the roof in particular has like 10 enemies). A bunch of traps that catch you off guard but aren't too punishing. Well, except for one boulder trap that came from nowehere, that was bullshit. Less scary than I remember, but I was a kid back then after all.

Off to the oil rig I go.

 

[Lemming42]

I love Great Wall, I seem to vaguely remember getting it on a demo disk with a magazine before the game came out, and I replayed it like fifty times. Great way to teach new players all the mechanics they'll have to use throughout the rest of the game, and give returning players a chance to refresh their memories.

The only part where the combat gets tedious is in Maria Doria IMO, and that's only because the endless gunmen are ruining the otherwise immaculate atmosphere of those levels.

 

[Ash]

Well, we still need something to fear, and the cult members are tricky to deal with and somewhat mysterious. They did add to the atmosphere for me. But still, it should have been abominable deep sea creatures instead for better results + variety.

The combat probably is best here in TR2. Enemies are actually a consistent threat. The amount of times where you're popping helpless moles below you is significantly reduced, though not eliminated. Helps that the human melee enemies can climb things too. Ideally though, we'd be dealing with projectile users more often across the original trilogy, which would go well with the acrobatics, but for some reason they're just so rare. Core Design weren't perfect sadly.

 

[Black Plague]

Also important to note is that some secrets contain a pickup in addition to the dragon so you still sometimes get something for your efforts

It's a reward for finding all of them so it's always the third dragon that gives you candy.
EDIT:

I missed one of the secrets here (some random switch on the wall), and so didn't get the reward thanks to the dragon system.

Oh, I didn't read your post. How silly. Anyway TRII is a shitty game. Fuck you Core for ruining my Christmas.

 

[Ash]

Off Shore Oil Rig: pretty great level. Already described why before. Could be a little more open and vast, but otherwise pretty decent.

Diving Area: First stain on the game. Moderately linear. Alarm klaxon ringing is very obnoxious in this level. Also houses the annoying tall ladder that you have to climb multiple times. Flamethrower dudes make for a unique threat. Puzzle and platforming while present take a slight backseat in favor of combat and swimming. Kind of lame backtracking too. Backtracking is never something I complain about but here it's really quite lame. I missed one of the secrets somehow. Not a terrible level, some good moments and challenges here and there, but surely one of the lesser levels in the game.

40 Fathoms: puzzles and platforming is front and center in this one along with swimming, very few enemies outside of avoiding sharks and barracuda. Quite linear once again, but overall a decent level. The puzzles are quite cool and one of the later ones had me guessing for a couple minutes. Game is ballsy and starts you in the deep dark ocean facing in the opposite direction to the Maria Doria, nice. I also like how the sharks follow you into the wreckage.

Wreck of the Maria Doria: here we go, that's a little better - some competition with TR1 greats. More maze-like and complex level design is back, and it's a big one. Took me an hour to beat (not including reloads) and that's with pretty steady progress without any major setbacks. Huge old school goodness. An even mix of puzzles, swimming, platforming and combat, solid balance in frequency of all. Unfortunately, there was MANY pushblock puzzles too. At least four. Decline! Other than that, classic level.

Unfortunately also, the majority of pickups are still coming from human enemies, only a little from exploration, optional challenges/secrets and a keen eye. Minor decline over TR1 and 3.

 

[Ash]

Living Quarters: This map is a bit lame I must say. Rather linear, most of the platforming challenges and puzzle elements are relatively straightforward. Most encounters consist of a dude in a hallway. Unfortunate. The second disappointment of the game, nonetheless 2 mediocre maps out of 11 so far is most definitely acceptable.

The Deck: Much better. relatively vast level, more diverse and interesting encounters, a very obscure path or two to progress, relatively decent platforming. Fuck the final secret though. It requires a significant backtrack through a big portion of the level, through some relatively boring climbing, swimming and running. Though at least they spawned some sharks for the swim section so it's not too mind-numbing. Edit: if you leave the secret for the very end of the level, the backtrack isn't required. But you have to know this in advance.

Tibetan Foothills: Somewhat linear, yet quite engaging. Great mix of solid on foot platforming and snowmobile platforming. Excellent puzzle elements. Good encounters, finally ramping up the combat a bit and demanding I pull out the big guns. All secrets mostly sitting in plain sight is weird, but other than that it's pretty much as good as I remember. Classic stuff. All/most other vehicle sections in gaming pale in comparison. I also got ran over a few times by the dudes on snowmobiles. Nice.

...

I complained about the lack of music variety in TR1, but I almost miss the TR1 theme playing every level it's just so classic. This game has more variety but sadly the triggers don't play them as much as they should. The deck used "caves" at the start, but it's brief (or can be interrupted by other brief cues and then its gone) and then outside of some short and infrequent cues (e.g enemy appears) the rest of the level is silent. Just a few more triggers here and there for the ambient music would have been nice. Would work wonders for the atmosphere.

Many of the secrets in this game kind of suck. I have obtained almost all, only missing three so far. A lot of the time a "secret" is very obvious. There's still plenty acceptable and interesting ones, but also quite a few sitting in plain sight. This perhaps stacks even worse with the lack of pickups found in the environment. It's not a huge deal, level design in general trumps all, and this is mostly delivering...but it should be better. The other games did this better.

 

[Neuromancer]

This game has more variety but sadly the triggers don't play them as much as they should. The deck used "caves" at the start, but it's brief (or can be interrupted by other brief cues and then its gone) and then outside of some short and infrequent cues (e.g enemy appears) the rest of the level is silent. Just a few more triggers here and there for the ambient music would have been nice. Would work wonders for the atmosphere.

It has been some time since I played Tomb Raider ii, so maybe I remember it wrong.
But as far as I do remember, the game shouldn't be silent. After the short cues are played, it should revert to the main music track of the level.

Are you still playing the PSX version? Maybe this is an emulation error.