The original Tomb Raider, its remake, and the loss of subtlety

[gabel]

I don't see why all these remasters/remakes/re-releases are needed. Get yourselves an emulator and play the original thing.
Turok remaster for example is unplayable on consoles, because the stick deadzones are fucking awful (among other things).
Exhumed/Powerslave is not a remaster at all, it's a bastardisation between the two console versions and the PC release.

I'm sure this thing will suck even with the original graphics and controls.
They'll find a way to fuck it up here as well.

 

[Bad Sector]

but the more nature-based areas like Peru or India (the latter of which already looks pretty bad in TR3) would be a big challenge.

Peru would be fine as it is basically caves and stylized caves can be anything. India should also be fine except for the the parts where you walk on top of trees that somehow have 2x2 meter branches. I think those are the exceptions though and in that case some artistic license would be tolerable - as you mentioned, even at the time the game was released, it looked bad.

Yeah playing TR on keyboard (I don't own a controller) is quite comfortable and very powerful

FWIW i like playing games on controllers but Tomb Raider despite supposedly being made for consoles (which isn't really true, there are DOS-based alphas with early TR graphics and controls showing the game always had PC in mind) works best on keyboard IMO. I even tried to use a PS1-like controller and it didn't feel as right as the keyboard controls - IMO main reason being that the keys are spread in the left and right edges of the keyboard and it is comfortable to use these.

 

[janior]

t-rex boss fight doesn't work perfectly in the anniversary but trying to trick it into charging on the spikes is way better idea than just doing 50 hops and unloading 300 bullets into it
qtes are mostly inoffensive in anniversary

 

[Ash]

Was browsing TR 1 & 2 reviews. Found some comedic material.

A TR1 Review from 2001 said:

Gameplay: 2/10
Well, this pretty much sucks as well. You play as Lara Croft, a young adventurer, who sets out to find the Scion. Through your quest, you’ll visit such places as Incan Ruins in Peru, and gothic ruins in Rome. But, be warned! There will be many things that will stop you in your path, such as Lions in Rome, and Wolves in Peru! But wait. Did you just hear what I said? I’m sorry, but Wolves are not found in Peru, especially in old decrepit Incan ruins. And, unless lions live over 3,000 years without food, they aren’t going to be in Rome. In fact, the game is plagued with what I call Delta Force Syndrome. A game that is filled with tons of stupid, stupid idiosyncrasies. Things include being able to be attacked by swimming giant rats, a dude shooting at you that you first get word of a level before he dies, and how ancient civilizations are able to rig up pull switches to electrically open doors. Just plain stupid. But, it goes beyond there. The gameplay is just plain boring, and the enemies are just plain stupid. Such as when I am in a pool, the Wolves around it will go around it and not even notice me, even if I’m at the edge! But, if I get out, they all of a sudden notice me, and run over. Also, as I mentioned before, the enemies will all of a sudden pop up at you, and since the screen gets so grainy when this happens, you can barely move around. You’ll have no fun playing this, as after the first level, it gets to just be all tediousness. Plus, one last thing from my mind. Tomb Raider: One that travels deep into temples, mosques, or the likes, and acts as a grave robber, taking all that they can possess from the dead. Well, this game doesn’t even live up to it’s namesake. None of the environments acts, or looks like a tomb of any sort, and she never really raids areas of anything really large or full of wealth. An overall dissapointment.

A TR2 Review from 2008 said:

Realism: 2/10
Okay, none of the problems from the first game were fixed in this sequel. People cannot jump nearly as high or as far as Lara can or with the same level of consistency every single time. Her jumps will always reach the same distance, whether it be vertical or horizontal, and it makes the game incredibly easy when it comes to judging distances. Lara's medpacks still heal everything; including her oxygen when she's drowning. Well, at least now Lara's main source of ammo and first-aid kits come from the people she's killed. It's baffling how a bad guy can shoot Lara when his back is turned to her; and, of course, Lara lacks this skill. However, there are some new problems that arise in this sequel. For example, Lara can dive into shallow water, water that she can actually stand in, from any height and never lose any health. Also, no matter how fast you're moving in a vehicle you won't lose health when you hit an obstacle unless if the action button is held down as well. Basically, don't play Tomb Raider II if you're looking for a realistic game because you will be disappointed.

Realismfags are the worst.

I also started replaying TR1 myself for the first time in 17 years. I just hit the Egyptian levels. Game is a certified gem. The cistern had me stumped for 5 minutes until I realized I should flood the area again. St francis folly was epic, I missed the secret at the bottom of the level. I recall you have to hit a switch at the top and rush to the bottom but I never found it. The lost valley was a lot easier than I remember but it is only level 3 so that is unsurprising. Palace Midas was a cool level. The colosseum not so much but it's servicable. The controls are absolutely fine though I am missing the refinements from the sequel and do wish certain animations were a little faster, but the controls themselves should absolutely not be a point of criticism. Too bad soy boys get to have an opinion otherwise.

Other than anim speed and of course the somewhat basic combat (though the acrobatics does add depth of course), I will criticize the soundtrack - great tunes, but quite a lot of recycling; not enough variety, and the sound design - quite primitive and lacking even by 1996 standards. Both of these audio concerns were addressed in the immediate sequels, and both are still great in their implementation, just a little behind other 90s classics Id say including the sequels. Anyways, in summary, it's still a classic and very playable today. The gameplay is old school goodness. Not the best of the era but definitely somewhere up there. And of course I am emulating the PS1 version.

Oh, I have like 20 small health packs and 12 large, and death count is probably 5. Secrets approximately 70% discovery rate. Definitely a little easier than I remember, but still very much engaging, demanding, and old school. It's a reasonable level of difficulty. Even though I haven't played any TR in a long time, I'm still a veteran too and remember more level design details than I'd like to. It's hard to judge this aspect without bias at this point, but ultimately I'd still rate it "hardcore". Just about. Primarily in its save system, tricky platforming and zero unnecessary hand holding combined with vast level design. TR3 however, that game is inarguably hardcore.

 

[janior]

I will never understand why so many people have an issue with tank controls.

 

[Ash]

Don't get me wrong it does still take some getting used to, I remember a learning curve as a kid, but that isn't really a bad thing either. It's a primarily a platformer and movement mastery is part of the game. But yeah, ultimately the complainers need to get good, and some people just lack adaptability. I can pick up any kind of game controller/input or game style and be comfortable in minutes, but that's certainly not everyone.

I blame soy boys again. A lot of people over the years complained about challenge in all its forms in old school games. Now we have braindead garbage as the new standard, hope they're happy.

 

[Neuromancer]

I will never understand why so many people have an issue with tank controls.

It is one layer of abstract thinking.
Instead of the player character just moving in the direction, that you see yourself on the visual screen, you have to think from the perspective of the character instead.

It seems, that is overwhelming for some (most?) people.

 

[Ezekiel]

I wouldn't put tank controls in a modern Tomb Raider. I just wouldn't automate any of it. She wouldn't magnetically steer towards ledges for you or reach out her arms and grab them for you. You would need to direct her totally yourself like in a standard platformer and hold the grab button until she has caught it.

 

[adddeed]

I will never understand why so many people have an issue with tank controls.

I love the weighty feel of Lara, with the feel of momentum as well. The superb animations help as well.

 

[Ravielsk]

I will never understand why so many people have an issue with tank controls.

Because when they talk about tank controls they are not thinking about Tomb Raider or Gothic, they are thinking about Resident Evil where the constant shifts in what is considered forward and backward make that style of control unwieldy and unintuitive especially when entering a new room. The control scheme is not the problem, the game that popularized it is.

 

[Melcar]

Tank control supremacy.

 

[kangaxx]

Slightly off topic, but what's the best way of playing the originals these days? I want to go through 1-4 again.

 

[flyingjohn]

Slightly off topic, but what's the best way of playing the originals these days? I want to go through 1-4 again.

Pc versions with fan fixes are pretty nice and have exclusive expansions.
But if you want a minimal effort playthrough, play the psx versions.

 

[Semiurge]

I will never understand why so many people have an issue with tank controls.

Because when they talk about tank controls they are not thinking about Tomb Raider or Gothic, they are thinking about Resident Evil where the constant shifts in what is considered forward and backward make that style of control unwieldy and unintuitive especially when entering a new room. The control scheme is not the problem, the game that popularized it is.

RE is retarded. At least in TRs the movement keys' functions always remain fixed no matter the camera angle. It makes continuous movement possible when the camera angle suddenly changes when you cross a trigger, such as during an escape from a room.

Slightly off topic, but what's the best way of playing the originals these days? I want to go through 1-4 again.

Automated Fix for TRI and TRII, that's all you need for them and it also comes bundled with the official expansions. For the rest, DgVoodoo and the widescreen patch. The latter couldn't be simpler to use, you browse the program to the TR exe (after a backup) and input the desired screen parameters, if necessary. DgVoodoo will enable support for resolutions beyond 2K, and it will render the FMVs in your selected game resolution. Be aware however that depending on your install source, TRIII will most likely need an updated Winplay.dll so that its biggest FMV won't freeze before finishing. It won't break the game since you can simply exit the FMV with Esc, but it can be fixed if you care to do so. The GOG installer contains the older version dated 2017, and you need one dated 2018 or later. One way to get the later version is to install GOG's TRII, that's where I got it, and if you're playing these in chronological order and you have the GOG versions, then you're set.

 

[janior]

square to jump...

I will never understand why so many people have an issue with tank controls.

Because when they talk about tank controls they are not thinking about Tomb Raider or Gothic, they are thinking about Resident Evil where the constant shifts in what is considered forward and backward make that style of control unwieldy and unintuitive especially when entering a new room. The control scheme is not the problem, the game that popularized it is.

Iv'e seen plenty of people complain about controls in gothic, even on this forum.

 

[Ash]

I will never understand why so many people have an issue with tank controls.

Because when they talk about tank controls they are not thinking about Tomb Raider or Gothic, they are thinking about Resident Evil where the constant shifts in what is considered forward and backward make that style of control unwieldy and unintuitive especially when entering a new room. The control scheme is not the problem, the game that popularized it is.

RE is retarded. At least in TRs the movement keys' functions always remain fixed no matter the camera angle. It makes continuous movement possible when the camera angle suddenly changes when you cross a trigger, such as during an escape from a room.

Huh? Your news is fake. RE movement functions exactly the same as TR: movement is always relative to the player character's orientation, not the camera. e.g left always turns your character left, forward always makes him or her go forward, regardless of the camera angle. This is exactly the same as TR. Have you considered it is you and the other guy that is retarded, not RE? :D

There are classic games where the controls are relative to the constantly changing camera, which I don't recall, but it's not the original RE games. And while that method is sub-optimal it's not the end of the world,. Ah - Devil May Cry is one such game. Lots of hack n slash actually. It makes perfect sense in the context of those games overall design, even if it is annoying having to reorient yourself every camera angle swap.

People have complained about tank controls since day one, in all games including TR. The SOY is real.

Slightly off topic, but what's the best way of playing the originals these days? I want to go through 1-4 again.

Emulate PS for non-casual, non-soyboy saving (don't be a bitch and use save states), and also it just works out the box no need for patches. To my knowledge there isn't any notable upside to the PC version in this particular case.

I'm at Natla's mines now. Egyptian levels are nicely designed though it is still recycling the same few tracks over and over (good thing they're good tunes). The exploding mummies and atlanteans are a total crapshoot, there isn't much of a strategy to them as they jump all over the place at high speed, though the centurions are well made late game enemies that demand some acrobatics. I suppose the mummies force tanking through my horde of ammo and medkits if nothing else, just wish there was some skill involved in fighting them.
Sanctuary of the Scion annoyed me on one or two occasions (flying enemies coming out of nowhere and glitch-pushing me to my death) but it is still a cool level and the difficulty level at this point is starting to really find its footing which is nice. Just a few levels to go now.

 

[Baron Dupek]

On my last playthrough (late XP or early Win7) there was this issue with textures (or other graphical minor problems) sometimes.
Maybe it's not a problem on PSX versions?

 

[Ezekiel]

I will never understand why so many people have an issue with tank controls.

Because when they talk about tank controls they are not thinking about Tomb Raider or Gothic, they are thinking about Resident Evil where the constant shifts in what is considered forward and backward make that style of control unwieldy and unintuitive especially when entering a new room. The control scheme is not the problem, the game that popularized it is.

RE is retarded. At least in TRs the movement keys' functions always remain fixed no matter the camera angle. It makes continuous movement possible when the camera angle suddenly changes when you cross a trigger, such as during an escape from a room.

Huh? Your news is fake. RE movement functions exactly the same as TR: movement is always relative to the player character's orientation, not the camera. e.g left always turns your character left, forward always makes him or her go forward, regardless of the camera angle. This is exactly the same as TR. Have you considered it is you and the other guy that is retarded, not RE? :D

There are classic games where the controls are relative to the constantly changing camera, which I don't recall, but it's not the original RE games. And while that method is sub-optimal it's not the end of the world,. Ah - Devil May Cry is one such game. Lots of hack n slash actually. It makes perfect sense in the context of those games overall design, even if it is annoying having to reorient yourself every camera angle swap.

People have complained about tank controls since day one, in all games including TR. The SOY is real.

They must have both played Resident Evil remake remaster with the idiotic alternative control method made for tank control haters.

 

[Bad Sector]

I wouldn't put tank controls in a modern Tomb Raider. I just wouldn't automate any of it.

The automatic actions are there because of the modern 3rd person controls: they are not as precise as tank controls for aligning your character since you do not have direct control over their direction but you can only orbit a camera around them.

Strictly speaking they are not necessary, some 3rd person perspective games from the ps2/xbox era do have the modern camera orbit controls without (much) automation, but they are more fiddly and imprecise when it comes to platforming than tank controls.

IMO the only alternative to tank controls that is as precise is FPS controls (e.g. Max Payne). But on a gamepad orbit controls feel better and FPS controls are only used in "aim mode" (if there is any) while any platforming is done with a copious dose of automatic actions.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

and since the screen gets so grainy when this happens

...what? I don't remember this. Is this a console thing?
Either way, it's stupid to complain about misplaced wildlife in a game where....

Spoiler

...you fight dinosaurs and deal with an ancient artifact of unknown power. Who cares about lions and wolves?

 

[Ezekiel]

I wouldn't put tank controls in a modern Tomb Raider. I just wouldn't automate any of it.

The automatic actions are there because of the modern 3rd person controls: they are not as precise as tank controls for aligning your character since you do not have direct control over their direction but you can only orbit a camera around them.

Strictly speaking they are not necessary, some 3rd person perspective games from the ps2/xbox era do have the modern camera orbit controls without (much) automation, but they are more fiddly and imprecise when it comes to platforming than tank controls.

IMO the only alternative to tank controls that is as precise is FPS controls (e.g. Max Payne). But on a gamepad orbit controls feel better and FPS controls are only used in "aim mode" (if there is any) while any platforming is done with a copious dose of automatic actions.

I was going to list off a bunch of 3D toon platformers from the Nintendo 64 to the Switch and ask why those play fine without tank controls and automation, but then realized they let you steer Mario, Rayman, Banjo and Kazooie while you are in the air. Think it would still be fine with steering removed after jumping, though. Pointing an analog stick correctly is not that hard and the platforms and grabbing points in Tomb Raider II weren't that small.

 

[Egosphere]

The more I watch the cutscene with Natla from the original, the more I like it. Laconic, yet conveys a lot about the motivations of the antagonist as well as Lara herself. Natla's sudden death and our subsequent stranding on the platform with the giga-mutant is unexpected yet believable. Builds plenty of tension too before you see the (unfortunately) comical monster design. Very well done.

A real shame that the original Core and its offshoots never went on to replicate what they managed with the original. I know that Gard's VR horror title was panned by critics.

 

[kangaxx]

Ok thanks, I'll probably look into emulating the PSX version then, I preferred the save crystal thing.

 

[Semiurge]

Huh? Your news is fake. RE movement functions exactly the same as TR: movement is always relative to the player character's orientation, not the camera. e.g left always turns your character left, forward always makes him or her go forward, regardless of the camera angle. This is exactly the same as TR. Have you considered it is you and the other guy that is retarded, not RE? :D

I've never played any RE games. Ravielsk's description made it seem as if the original RE had camera-dependent controls.

 

[Ravielsk]

I've never played any RE games. Ravielsk's description made it seem as if the original RE had camera-dependent controls.

Because it does. The classic RE games switch the camera angle between rooms and sometimes even within the room itself. So a behind the back camera can instantly jump to be a front facing one or over head. What this means is that it becomes very easy to screw up your inputs and make the character go in the wrong direction as your viewing angle suddenly shifted to a wholly new position.

In normal exploration this is fine because you always have the time course correct but when you are pressed for time such as when the dogs chase you or you need to dodge around some zombies it can absolutely be a problem for first time players. In Tomb Raider or Gothic this is not an issue because the viewing angle is constantly behind your back so you basically never get in a situation where you would think to press the back direction to go forward.