The Outer Worlds: Spacer's Choice Edition - Obsidian's first-person sci-fi RPG set in a corporate space colony

[Anthedon]

No pressure is necessary. Writing in general is becoming a pink-collar profession in the West, and there are aspects of video game writing that probably make it particularly suitable to women (lots of "secretarial" fill-in-the-blank tasks as opposed to stream of consciousness writing, lots of collaboration and teamwork, etc).

What?

Helen Hindpere wrote a lot of Disco Elysium and her work is top.

Downright normal looking people writing my video games? What?!


Inb4 redheads are not people.

 

[Steamboat Willie]

But saying Andromeda is one of his favourite ME games

Maybe it's his 4th favorite.

 

[agris]

https://www.pcgamer.com/disco-elysium-has-ruined-the-outer-worlds-for-me/

It's hard to go back from that to "[Persuade] Please let me have more money for the quest I did" straight away. OK, so The Outer Worlds is better written than that, but the function of skill checks in dialogue is largely to get out of fights or get extra cash, and often your choices will have no bearing on conversations at all. Any insight you get will probably be freely offered moments later. Conversations, then, feel like they're on rails, and while you can pretend that your character has a personality and certain traits, it's rare that the game will acknowledge that beyond some throwaway dialogue options. It's like nobody is listening to me—my worst fear, aside from spiders.

To be honest with all of you, I'm reading this thread out of morbid curiosity rather than a genuine interest in TOW. This article is interesting though, and I think it paints a picture of my and others malaise towards games like TOW. It isn't a feeling unique to OEs newest creation though.

I thought it was funny that, in the middle of the article while the author was comparin'n'contrastin' the two titles, the reader is treated to a screenshot of DE and then of TOW. DE is, obviously, isometric but also contains those painterly qualities and the specific image is fairly well framed. In contrast, the TOW image just screams MONSTER!!! at 11, done in the style of what appears to be a 12 year old's imagination.

image

It's kitchen-sink++ design, especially with the poor overly-saturated color palette. So my hat is off to PCG, that article was surprisingly truthful, and reflects a very codexian point of view, if not diplomatically. As diplomatically as a codexian PoV could be represented, at least.

edit: typos

 

[Bad Sector]

My sense is that the developers who perform tasks associated with "area design" in the past would have also done the writing for those areas. Professional game development have evolved towards separating and specializing those roles.

Isn't that inherently connected with said areas becoming 3d, thus requiring professional graphic artists with actual modelling skills and understanding, instead of writers just dropping general ideas about an isometric area. Verticality and traversability are no longer as banal as they used to be.

Not really, in both cases the designers would use prefabricated modular pieces - for 2D games it would be tiles and sprites, for 3D games it would be static meshes and other prefabs. Though of course it largely depends on the studio, engine and their workflow. In some games the area designers use prefabs/meshes/etc directly (e.g. Bethesda does that, they have made detailed presentations about how they build their worlds at recent GDCs) whereas in other games the area designers use editor primitives (boxes, brushes, etc) to block out the area before giving them to environment artists. In either case (and in 2D case too), the environment artists are those who will do the artwork, not the area designers.

Also FWIW most 2D games mentioned around here (Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Arcanum, etc) also used 3D modelling and needed those skills.

And IMO the verticality in most 3D games, especially (A)RPGs, isn't that special anyway. In TOW almost everything is a single floor, with some things (mainly individual houses) being two floors. There might be some with more but i can't think of any right now.

 

[Bad Sector]

Also two things i didn't notice anyone mentioning before about TOW compared to FNV that are missing from TOW are the NPC's equipped items and... grimaces :-P.

The former is really a thing FNV inherited from Bethesda's engine from back when they actually put some effort in it (i mean Morrowind) but i always liked how whenever i killed someone in FNV i can take their actual equipment instead of whatever random drop the game feels like giving me and when i did take their clothes and/or weapons those would disappear from the NPC's body.

The latter is also something Bethesda's engine has (since Oblivion IIRC) but more importantly it is also something they (Tim and Leonard) had in VtMB: when you are talking with someone, their feelings towards you affects their facial animations (it can be a bit comical how these switch from happy to angry almost instantly but i think nowadays we have the technology for blending facial animations :-P). Of course this also assumes the game keeps track of such feelings (though if nothing else they could use your overall standing with the faction/company of whoever you are talking to).

Both aren't really big things (especially the second one), but they are still things that previous games (in the same subgenre even) made by people who worked on TOW already did. Though unlike other things that i think FVN/VtMB did better (like having interesting characters) these are things that most likely are affected by their available budget.

 

[DalekFlay]

Short but sweet insights into one of the settings main problems. Lack of depth beyond corporations bad. There's hints at more... religion, order versus chaos, etc... but I haven't seen much really developed in 20 hours. Also the idea of a corporate run world feeling more like communism than anarchy. Shadowrun does this stuff much better.

 

[Dishonoredbr]

but I haven't seen much really developed in 20 hours.

That's shame if it's true. I quite liked the edgewater quest and had big hopes for the rest..

 

[Roguey]

And he's just a part of tradition that goes back to the antiquity, because throughout history most writers were independently wealthy sheltered aristocrats, or at the very least, middle-class well educated upstarts. People with " rough life experience" didn't write fancy novels because they had fields to plow.

But anyway, let's go back to discussing how real writer needs to fight in a war and wrestle bears.

It is puzzling how middle class writers have become so terrible recently. It's not limited to games either, it's a decline that covers all media.

I thought Fenstermaker was the one with control over hiring decisions. Care to weigh in Roguey ?

Back when Fenstermaker worked there, only people who could get along with him were hired, yes.

 

[Jenkem]

I've got an entire fucking spreadsheet with everyone in here and their disparaging comments about TOW listed and am eagerly awaiting the release of Cyberpunk 2077 to cross check the list for inconsistencies, cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy.

You are on notice.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I've got an entire fucking spreadsheet with everyone in here and their disparaging comments about TOW listed and am eagerly awaiting the release of Cyberpunk 2077 to cross check the list for inconsistencies, cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy.

You are on notice.

Duly noted, lad.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

The world depicted in OW feels like communism because it represents the final stage of capitalism, when companies substitute the government.

 

[Jenkem]

What?

looks like an anemic dave mustaine

 

[Nano]

Your post was absolutely on point, Riddler. What I personally have trouble understanding is that important members of the current writing team were hired while MCA was still there. It is really-really hard for me to understand how he let that happen.

Carrie is Avellone-approved and she's one of the few Obsidian folk he still follows on Twitter.

 

[The_Mask]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the way I see it is that the financial success of TOW is mostly due to:

1. slow releases right now

2. anti-Bethesda current right now due to F76 being complete and utter garbage.

Is anyone/game critic with a balanced mind and clear rhetoric actually endorsing this game?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Well I finished it. Short review is this: Outer Worlds is a burger made of high quality ingredients, but chef forgot to add seasoning. It also makes zero excuses for being a burger, which is why I ended up liking it more than both Pillars, they aimed for the Michelin star only to end up undercooked.

One thing I gotta praise is that the game stays remarkably loyal to its advertised formula. I ended up clocking 26 hours, completionist run wouldn't take more than 30. Small amount of content in a $60 RPG was always going to be controversial, but throughout the game Obsidian avoids the temptation to add some cheap filler content. They stick to making well-crafted levels with multiple approaches and reactivity in the quests. There's something to commend about the game that is 30 hours long but stays consistent, focused and comes out polished and finished on launch. Josh could learn a thing or two about scope control from Tim and Leon.

Overall most of the game is done well, but two biggest offenders dragging it down are loot and writing. Loot is simply horrendous and made worse by the game constantly throwing trucks of items at you. Just sorting through that shit makes you want to find a different hobby. Writing has some high points, but most of the time it lacks flavor, fails to establish the factions, fails to flesh out the setting and memorable characters and quests are rare.

The biggest strength is the core gameplay - level design, exploration and C&C are excellent, and combat while not great, is enjoyable enough at the start and becomes more enjoyable throughout the game when some of the more funky items and abilities start opening up. It's certainly a Troika game in terms of gameplay - quest and world structures are similar to Fallout 1, there are Tim Cain's trademark hilariously broken abilities and weapons, and there's a traditional sneaker/talker/fighter gameplay triad.

After Pillars 1, 2 and now TOW, I think we can conclude that this is entirely new Obsidian we're dealing with. They became famous for games where everything was shit except for the writing, but with these last 3 games they've done a complete 180 turn. They've became a developer that is technically competent and makes games that look good, run well, launch without a million bugs, area and interior designers make some gorgeous looking locations, but the writing just isn't there anymore.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it a drastic decline. They've improved as a company in many ways and every once in a while it's fun to take off my top hat and eat a burger. But the old Obsidian is gone and the real innovation in the genre is coming out of indies these days. And perhaps that's how it should be.

 

[Zerginfestor]

FNV/F3>F4>TOW.

FNV >>>>>>>>>>>>> F4/TOW >>>>>>> F3

I don't know. The actual gameplay in FNV sucked pretty badly (similarly to F3, but with worse exploration).
So I'd say FNV, F4 and TOW are all pretty close, each on its own merits. With F3 lagging behind.

Well the rating was about gore in general, if you noticed, the gore keeps getting toned down from F3/NV's gore system (where enemies are spewing blood about, the limbs have no problem squirting and dribbling blood onto the ground, ground gets saturated), to F4 (limbs are no longer squirting profusely of blood, If there is, it's very short lived, more like an instant splash and sometimes not even there, but ground saturation still happens and people still fall with physics impact, like getting hit by a powerful weapon), to finally TOW (enemies just crumple over, limbs pop off with absolutely no blood spray or thick mulch sounds of flesh being torn asunder, no ground saturation, body can not be altered once set on ground).

This is actually very important in terms of playing time. If you don't have interesting, or impactful gunplay, a player's gonna get...well...fucking bored to tears.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Well I finished it.

Thoughts on the ending (spoilered, of course)?

 

[DalekFlay]

That's shame if it's true. I quite liked the edgewater quest and had big hopes for the rest..

So far it's basically stayed at Edgewater level. If you liked that (as did I) then you'll like the rest. You just won't love it, because it never goes any further. So far at least.

That kind of goes for the whole game really. I like it okay, but I wanted to love it, and I don't.

I ended up clocking 26 hours, completionist run wouldn't take more than 30.

I'm at over 20 hours and have only been to two planets.

 

[Steamboat Willie]

I've got an entire fucking spreadsheet with everyone in here and their disparaging comments about TOW listed and am eagerly awaiting the release of Cyberpunk 2077 to cross check the list for inconsistencies, cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy.

You are on notice.

Oh well, you need something to pass the time I guess. It's not like there have been any halfway decent games released recently that could do the trick.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Thoughts on the ending (spoilered, of course)?

Final mission was predictable but quite fun. Ending itself

Spoiler

I thought was great - I ended up siding with the scientist, but there are no easy choices there and I scratched my head for quite a while before commiting to a choice. Ending slides seem very expansive with a lot of variations baked-in, which should make for fun replays.

So far it's basically stayed at Edgewater level. If you liked that (as did I) then you'll like the rest. You just won't love it, because it never goes any further. So far at least.

That kind of goes for the whole game really. I like it okay, but I wanted to love it, and I don't.

I'm at over 20 hours and have only been to two planets.

Yeah I meant 30 hours at my pace. I ended up skipping I guess about 5 quests and I shoot some quest NPCs in Byzantium during my murder spree.

 

[Jenkem]

I thought the ending was rather anticlimactic, even though it was supposed to look like some epic battle where all the factions you helped before come to your aid, but I just walked through there w/ my disguise...

 

[Trashos]

Your post was absolutely on point, Riddler. What I personally have trouble understanding is that important members of the current writing team were hired while MCA was still there. It is really-really hard for me to understand how he let that happen.

Carrie is Avellone-approved and she's one of the few Obsidian folk he still follows on Twitter.

That could be just PR, though. MCA has always been nice to everyone in public, until someone really-really pisses him off. Also, I hang out with a lot of people who suck at their jobs myself. I would never hire them, though.

Riddler talked about how these people write without understanding the themes they are writing about (can't understand the opposing view etc). MCA surely understands how important this is, his writing is the proof. I just don't get how he allowed them there.

And, btw, Fenstermaker doesn't seem to have this problem in his writing either.

 

[Hellion]

I liked that pretty much all main-quest-related combat (up to the very end of the game) can be avoided with the proper dialogue/tech skill checks.

I also liked that the game practically begs for at least one playthrough where you just murder everyone. I decided to kill some NPCs during the course of a companion's personal quest and she went all "what the hell are you doing?" and immediately abandoned my party, I wonder what other such interactions there are when you play as a complete psycopath.

It's good-old "traditional" First-Person RPG fun all-in-all, even though the game's writing can't hold a candle to New Vegas, which is usually credited as a comparison/inspiration. Dialogue is simply "OK" and not particularly funny or smart, and half of the companion NPCs are so bland that I'm having trouble remembering their names.

 

[Nano]

That could be just PR, though. MCA has always been nice to everyone in public, until someone really-really pisses him off. Also, I hang out with a lot of people who suck at their jobs myself. I would never hire them, though.

What does he have to gain from being nice to a not very well known writer? Avellone has demonstrated in recent years that he's given up diplomacy when it comes to Obsidian. Also, as I said, he had no problem unfollowing most of Obsidian's other employees after he left.

 

[Trashos]

Nano, maybe he likes her as a person. Of course I don't know, I just find it hard to believe that he couldn't tell how hard they sucked at writing.