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Ultima The Ultima Series Discussion Thread

What is your favorite Ultima game?


  • Total voters
    351

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2,233
Alright, now I've got some beef with the new keyword system of Ultima 7. Having a list of them instead of being able to type them is just fucking decline and that's apparent from the get go, but it goes deeper than that. My save got corrupted and so I had to start over, so I just wanted to rush back to where I was. This should be a pretty simple matter considering that I kept my notes and I already know what to do. So I got back to Minoc to talk to the Fellowship leader there, so I could deliver Batlin's package and ask about Elizabeth and Abraham. I already knew that they'd be going back to Paws, and to Jhelom from there. Yet I didn't have the option of asking her about them. I knew that she knew where they were, but I was not allowed to ask her about it. So I go back to Batlin at Britain - I can't ask him about it either. The leader of the homeless shelter in Paws - can't ask him either. It turns out that I didn't even bother talking to the branch leader in Trinsic, so I have to go all the fucking way back to Trinsic, click all of his keywords, and then work my way through all of the fuckers from there. What a load of shit. This wouldn't be a problem if I could've just asked the bitch in Minoc by typing that shit in like in every prior Ultima game. Is this what you have to do every time you replay this game? You have to rush through everybody's dialogue even if you already know where to go and what to do? It's needlessly restricting.
 

Comte_II

Guest
Alright, now I've got some beef with the new keyword system of Ultima 7. Having a list of them instead of being able to type them is just fucking decline and that's apparent from the get go, but it goes deeper than that. My save got corrupted and so I had to start over, so I just wanted to rush back to where I was. This should be a pretty simple matter considering that I kept my notes and I already know what to do. So I got back to Minoc to talk to the Fellowship leader there, so I could deliver Batlin's package and ask about Elizabeth and Abraham. I already knew that they'd be going back to Paws, and to Jhelom from there. Yet I didn't have the option of asking her about them. I knew that she knew where they were, but I was not allowed to ask her about it. So I go back to Batlin at Britain - I can't ask him about it either. The leader of the homeless shelter in Paws - can't ask him either. It turns out that I didn't even bother talking to the branch leader in Trinsic, so I have to go all the fucking way back to Trinsic, click all of his keywords, and then work my way through all of the fuckers from there. What a load of shit. This wouldn't be a problem if I could've just asked the bitch in Minoc by typing that shit in like in every prior Ultima game. Is this what you have to do every time you replay this game? You have to rush through everybody's dialogue even if you already know where to go and what to do? It's needlessly restricting.
Magic carpet breaks this quest chain
 

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2,233
Magic carpet breaks this quest chain
:lol::lol::lol: Why is this thing even in the game? It even looks like it was modded in with the stupid fucking chairs. Should I just not use it or what? How could you put in a free, universal method of transporation in the game, allow me to access it from the very beginning, and not expect me to fly all over the place? What the fuck were Origin thinking?
 

Bruma Hobo

Lurker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
2,481
Ultima VII is a mess.

First of all, Ultima VII is a detective game where combat and dungeon exploration are merely an afterthought, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is that, althought the game is mostly about talking with NPCs, traveling from town to town, and manipulating and pushing objects around to find clues and solve puzzles, these core activities got overly streamlined and dumbed-down.

For example, the dialogue system got streamlined in favor of a mouse-only interface, so you no longer can type keywords to prompt NPC reactions. This is a baffling decision for a mystery-themed game as it cripples the whole clue-gathering aspect so important to the Ultima series. Because of this, clever players can no longer sequence-break the now rigid plot, there can no longer be implicit or environmental clues, and oblivious players will be able to unlock all dialogue options without much thought (I remember solving a crime in Empath Abbey just by mindlessly clicking all dialogue options available, it was so lame). Karma meters are also gone, so you no longer can say things that could hinder your progress later on, and of course, character stats and spells will never affect these activities.

Earlier Ultima games had an abstract presentation, while Ultima VII tried a more realistic and "cinematic" (and vomit-inducing) top-down perspective. This seemingliy minor detail had huge consequences in game design, like the removal of many interesting systems, a dumbed-down combat system where you can only control the main character in real time (yes, I know that most Ultima games have mediocre combat, but before Ultima VII this wasn't set in stone yet: Ultima VI had a serviceable turn-based system, while combat in Ultima V was actually top-notch), and many other decisions like having to manually fed party members like fucking babies every couple of minutes. There's for example no more blink spells to avoid enemies and reach hidden spots; horses are now useless and only there to please LARPers; there's naval exploration, but winds no longer affect navigation, there's no more ship to ship combat nor boarding stages, and ships are now indestructible; there are moongates but they're no longer puzzles to be solved; and the magic carpet quickly renders all other transportation means obsolete anyways.

Character customization became meaningless, with no character creation nor classes, worthless stats, and little to no moral choices. Quests got also more linear, and the loss of interesting systems like teleportation spells or being able to blowup doors made them more generic (Ultima was no Quest for Glory in that regard, but before VII quests with multiple solutions were not rare), and for a game with so much emphasis on moving objects around and some rudimentary physics, it's hard to believe that character attributes and spells barely affect these activities. It would have been nice to have some strength checks when pushing objects around, dexterity or intelligence checks when playing instruments, and so on, but unfortunately by this time Garriott had become a full-fledged LARPer.

The plot in Ultima VII was actually good, but it's also a more generic good vs evil tale compared to Ultima IV or VI. Britannia itself on the other hand is a setting that feels dumber the more detailed it gets, and Ultima VII offers by far its most detailed iteration. There's also lots of seemingly interesting bits of lore that seasoned players will recognize as the plots from the previous Ultima games being retconned.

Because of all this, newcomers tend to enjoy Ultima VII way more than many Ultima veterans. This explains why the game got slammed by critics and had poor sales back in 1992, while today it's considered a huge classic.

And to be fair, it can be argued that many of these flaws (or virtues) that I associate with Ultima VII were already present in Ultima VI, but I believe it should get a pass for being a very exciting step forward in game design at the time, unlike Ultima VII which just polished that formula in the lamest way possible, while ignoring what made Ultima IV and V (arguably the peak of the series if we ignore the Underworld spinoff) so great. At the very least Ultima VI still offered a competent enough turn-based combat system, a superior dialogue system, and the illusion of moral choices.
 

qwertyuiop666

Novice
Joined
Aug 12, 2022
Messages
25
Ultima VII is a mess.

First of all, Ultima VII is a detective game where combat and dungeon exploration are merely an afterthought, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is that, althought the game is mostly about talking with NPCs, traveling from town to town, and manipulating and pushing objects around to find clues and solve puzzles, these core activities got overly streamlined and dumbed-down.

For example, the dialogue system got streamlined in favor of a mouse-only interface, so you no longer can type keywords to prompt NPC reactions. This is a baffling decision for a mystery-themed game as it cripples the whole clue-gathering aspect so important to the Ultima series. Because of this, clever players can no longer sequence-break the now rigid plot, there can no longer be implicit or environmental clues, and oblivious players will be able to unlock all dialogue options without much thought (I remember solving a crime in Empath Abbey just by mindlessly clicking all dialogue options available, it was so lame). Karma meters are also gone, so you no longer can say things that could hinder your progress later on, and of course, character stats and spells will never affect these activities.

Earlier Ultima games had an abstract presentation, while Ultima VII tried a more realistic and "cinematic" (and vomit-inducing) top-down perspective. This seemingliy minor detail had huge consequences in game design, like the removal of many interesting systems, a dumbed-down combat system where you can only control the main character in real time (yes, I know that most Ultima games have mediocre combat, but before Ultima VII this wasn't set in stone yet: Ultima VI had a serviceable turn-based system, while combat in Ultima V was actually top-notch), and many other decisions like having to manually fed party members like fucking babies every couple of minutes. There's for example no more blink spells to avoid enemies and reach hidden spots; horses are now useless and only there to please LARPers; there's naval exploration, but winds no longer affect navigation, there's no more ship to ship combat nor boarding stages, and ships are now indestructible; there are moongates but they're no longer puzzles to be solved; and the magic carpet quickly renders all other transportation means obsolete anyways.

Character customization became meaningless, with no character creation nor classes, worthless stats, and little to no moral choices. Quests got also more linear, and the loss of interesting systems like teleportation spells or being able to blowup doors made them more generic (Ultima was no Quest for Glory in that regard, but before VII quests with multiple solutions were not rare), and for a game with so much emphasis on moving objects around and some rudimentary physics, it's hard to believe that character attributes and spells barely affect these activities. It would have been nice to have some strength checks when pushing objects around, dexterity or intelligence checks when playing instruments, and so on, but unfortunately by this time Garriott had become a full-fledged LARPer.

The plot in Ultima VII was actually good, but it's also a more generic good vs evil tale compared to Ultima IV or VI. Britannia itself on the other hand is a setting that feels dumber the more detailed it gets, and Ultima VII offers by far its most detailed iteration. There's also lots of seemingly interesting bits of lore that seasoned players will recognize as the plots from the previous Ultima games being retconned.

Because of all this, newcomers tend to enjoy Ultima VII way more than many Ultima veterans. This explains why the game got slammed by critics and had poor sales back in 1992, while today it's considered a huge classic.

And to be fair, it can be argued that many of these flaws (or virtues) that I associate with Ultima VII were already present in Ultima VI, but I believe it should get a pass for being a very exciting step forward in game design at the time, unlike Ultima VII which just polished that formula in the lamest way possible, while ignoring what made Ultima IV and V (arguably the peak of the series if we ignore the Underworld spinoff) so great. At the very least Ultima VI still offered a competent enough turn-based combat system, a superior dialogue system, and the illusion of moral choices.
Despite all this, the world immerses me like no other. The NPCs feel pretty real, and so do the problems they have.
 

Cael

Arcane
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
22,193
Magic carpet breaks this quest chain
:lol::lol::lol: Why is this thing even in the game? It even looks like it was modded in with the stupid fucking chairs. Should I just not use it or what? How could you put in a free, universal method of transporation in the game, allow me to access it from the very beginning, and not expect me to fly all over the place? What the fuck were Origin thinking?
They didn't code for people to sit down on the floor. They needed the chairs to mask that fact. That is why there is only a wagon and no plain horses, and all ships have chairs.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,730
Looks like a choo choo rail road esp the conversation order. I guess it doesn't differ much from the snes much then?
 

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2,233
Looks like a choo choo rail road esp the conversation order.
I'm wondering if the thousands of words of notes I'm taking are gonna end up being useless. It reminds me of the first time I played Ultima 6 where I wrote down every single piece of flavor text I saw because I thought it might all be necessary (a habit picked up from U4 where that was pretty much the case). But that game burned me for not taking enough notes at the end, because on my newest playthrough I started a new set of notes. My last set of notes I wrote down all the places I could sell and buy different things like bread, cloth, etc, but didn't bother to in my new set of notes because I thought it was all just fluff. And then it turns out that you need all that shit at the end of the game to craft the hot air balloon. So I don't care if I'm wasting my time, I don't want to be put through the hell of having to comb through every fucking town in the game to find someone who can make thread.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,730
I mostly shorthand and keyword my notes (ususlly on scrap paper, napkins, newspapers, etc. like a terrible Columbo.... "Hey LB.... just one more thing.."
 

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2,233
I mostly shorthand and keyword my notes (ususlly on scrap paper, napkins, newspapers, etc. like a terrible Columbo.... "Hey LB.... just one more thing.."
I used to play this stupid Ace Attorney roleplaying game (basically a chatroom), and in that game you basically had to copy and paste all of the witness testimonies into a text file. I usually would write little comments under each part of the testimony to remember my line of questioning when we got to cross examination, and it was there that I picked up my habit of larping in my notes which I continued to do in Ultima. Like, I write notes as if I were there as the Avatar, stopping just short of writing it all in Ye Olde English. Sounds pretty fucking autistic, I know, but it amuses me and it makes it seem more like an immersive adventure.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,730
There is that one site I may have linked where the author ad libs personalities and adds little quips of this and that in his playthrough. Made a great read.
 

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2,233
The Isle of Fire is busting my balls. I gave up and looked up a walkthrough for the test of truth, and boy, am I glad I did.
The scroll at the south-east end of the invisible barriers suggest these are the "Tunnels of False-hood". Thus, you want a "true hood". Since only appearances are deceptive, you should locate the hood. From there, trust not the obvious path and north is the way, that is: walk north into the wall.
:what: :x
Pick up a random hood and walk into a fucking wall. OK. Those signs are like 20 minutes away from where you actually need to do that shit, by the way.
 

Cael

Arcane
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
22,193
The Isle of Fire is busting my balls. I gave up and looked up a walkthrough for the test of truth, and boy, am I glad I did.
The scroll at the south-east end of the invisible barriers suggest these are the "Tunnels of False-hood". Thus, you want a "true hood". Since only appearances are deceptive, you should locate the hood. From there, trust not the obvious path and north is the way, that is: walk north into the wall.
:what: :x
Pick up a random hood and walk into a fucking wall. OK. Those signs are like 20 minutes away from where you actually need to do that shit, by the way.
I thought you started at the SE end of the invisible maze...?
 

BruceVC

Arcane
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
10,152
Location
South Africa, Cape Town
Looks like a choo choo rail road esp the conversation order.
I'm wondering if the thousands of words of notes I'm taking are gonna end up being useless. It reminds me of the first time I played Ultima 6 where I wrote down every single piece of flavor text I saw because I thought it might all be necessary (a habit picked up from U4 where that was pretty much the case). But that game burned me for not taking enough notes at the end, because on my newest playthrough I started a new set of notes. My last set of notes I wrote down all the places I could sell and buy different things like bread, cloth, etc, but didn't bother to in my new set of notes because I thought it was all just fluff. And then it turns out that you need all that shit at the end of the game to craft the hot air balloon. So I don't care if I'm wasting my time, I don't want to be put through the hell of having to comb through every fucking town in the game to find someone who can make thread.
I think its an amazing feature that games like Ultima required you to make notes that could be useful in later games, it must have been a great feeling to solve puzzles in later games due to notes ?

Due to Apartheid sanctions and then it ending and RL changes I never played any of the CRPG but I did play U8 in 1995/6 and I loved it. I knew about the Ultima world from reading Dragon magazines and I always wanted to play the games. I got back into gaming in 2007 and I bought my first gaming machine and I played Ultima Online for 2 years. It was great fun but the world is empty of most players and events from the past dont mean much to a new players. But I do explore the world of Ultima

I am definitely going to play the Ultima series now but I will probably start on 4 as someone suggested because of the age of the old games ?

And then I am not use to making maps or notes on paper, is it required or can you use automap and similar features?
 

oldmanpaco

Master of Siestas
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Messages
13,624
Location
Fall
Looks like a choo choo rail road esp the conversation order.
I'm wondering if the thousands of words of notes I'm taking are gonna end up being useless. It reminds me of the first time I played Ultima 6 where I wrote down every single piece of flavor text I saw because I thought it might all be necessary (a habit picked up from U4 where that was pretty much the case). But that game burned me for not taking enough notes at the end, because on my newest playthrough I started a new set of notes. My last set of notes I wrote down all the places I could sell and buy different things like bread, cloth, etc, but didn't bother to in my new set of notes because I thought it was all just fluff. And then it turns out that you need all that shit at the end of the game to craft the hot air balloon. So I don't care if I'm wasting my time, I don't want to be put through the hell of having to comb through every fucking town in the game to find someone who can make thread.
I think its an amazing feature that games like Ultima required you to make notes that could be useful in later games, it must have been a great feeling to solve puzzles in later games due to notes ?

Due to Apartheid sanctions and then it ending and RL changes I never played any of the CRPG but I did play U8 in 1995/6 and I loved it. I knew about the Ultima world from reading Dragon magazines and I always wanted to play the games. I got back into gaming in 2007 and I bought my first gaming machine and I played Ultima Online for 2 years. It was great fun but the world is empty of most players and events from the past dont mean much to a new players. But I do explore the world of Ultima

I am definitely going to play the Ultima series now but I will probably start on 4 as someone suggested because of the age of the old games ?

And then I am not use to making maps or notes on paper, is it required or can you use automap and similar features?
U3 was the first multiparty ultima and the one I woulds recommend starting with. U0, U1, and U2 are for the hardcore fans.
 

Cael

Arcane
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
22,193
Looks like a choo choo rail road esp the conversation order.
I'm wondering if the thousands of words of notes I'm taking are gonna end up being useless. It reminds me of the first time I played Ultima 6 where I wrote down every single piece of flavor text I saw because I thought it might all be necessary (a habit picked up from U4 where that was pretty much the case). But that game burned me for not taking enough notes at the end, because on my newest playthrough I started a new set of notes. My last set of notes I wrote down all the places I could sell and buy different things like bread, cloth, etc, but didn't bother to in my new set of notes because I thought it was all just fluff. And then it turns out that you need all that shit at the end of the game to craft the hot air balloon. So I don't care if I'm wasting my time, I don't want to be put through the hell of having to comb through every fucking town in the game to find someone who can make thread.
I think its an amazing feature that games like Ultima required you to make notes that could be useful in later games, it must have been a great feeling to solve puzzles in later games due to notes ?

Due to Apartheid sanctions and then it ending and RL changes I never played any of the CRPG but I did play U8 in 1995/6 and I loved it. I knew about the Ultima world from reading Dragon magazines and I always wanted to play the games. I got back into gaming in 2007 and I bought my first gaming machine and I played Ultima Online for 2 years. It was great fun but the world is empty of most players and events from the past dont mean much to a new players. But I do explore the world of Ultima

I am definitely going to play the Ultima series now but I will probably start on 4 as someone suggested because of the age of the old games ?

And then I am not use to making maps or notes on paper, is it required or can you use automap and similar features?
There are no automaps in the mainline Ultimas. There is an automap in Ultima Underworld 1 and 2.

If you want the best of the series, play 4, 5, 6, Underworld 1, 7, Underworld 2, 7-2 in that order. They are all one big arc with the same consistent characters and world (except Underworld 1 but it is there because it is just that good a story). The others are pretty fucked.
 

Bruma Hobo

Lurker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
2,481
And then I am not use to making maps or notes on paper, is it required or can you use automap and similar features?
You won't need to map, but you will have to take plenty of notes, and even read the manuals carefully to solve some mandatory puzzles.

Start with Ultima IV if you want the proper storyfag ride, it's the most innovative and unique game in the series, and where its plot actually begins. But if you can't stand its shitty and repetitive combat, you can safely skip it and play Ultima V instead.
 

ShaggyMoose

Savant
Joined
Aug 26, 2017
Messages
616
Location
Australia
The magic carpet was such a great and unexpected find; you could easily have gone through the game without stumbling over it. I always loved that you could put chests on it and use it as a pack mule also.
 

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2,233
And then I am not use to making maps or notes on paper, is it required or can you use automap and similar features?
Mapping things out isn't necessary. You get magical peering gems which show you the layout of the entire floor of the dungeon you're currently on, with secret doors and ladders and everything. As long as you're stocked up on those gems, you can go through pretty much all the dungeons with confidence. Except in U6 but I still did it without mapping anything.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,730
Damn pity the combat looks like ass in U7. I also looked at some of the mapping in the game and parts look like lazily dropping assets here and there. You can clearly tell trees, rocks, and various things must be added via a drag/drop or insert that just doesn't flawlessly mesh with the map background. Still. At least it is more colorful in parts than Ultima 6. I have to say, for this style of art u6 and u8 dungeons were damn terrible for variety. No wonder u6 did a World of Ultima on Mars.

Lol at 8
 
Last edited:

BruceVC

Arcane
Joined
Jul 25, 2011
Messages
10,152
Location
South Africa, Cape Town
Looks like a choo choo rail road esp the conversation order.
I'm wondering if the thousands of words of notes I'm taking are gonna end up being useless. It reminds me of the first time I played Ultima 6 where I wrote down every single piece of flavor text I saw because I thought it might all be necessary (a habit picked up from U4 where that was pretty much the case). But that game burned me for not taking enough notes at the end, because on my newest playthrough I started a new set of notes. My last set of notes I wrote down all the places I could sell and buy different things like bread, cloth, etc, but didn't bother to in my new set of notes because I thought it was all just fluff. And then it turns out that you need all that shit at the end of the game to craft the hot air balloon. So I don't care if I'm wasting my time, I don't want to be put through the hell of having to comb through every fucking town in the game to find someone who can make thread.
I think its an amazing feature that games like Ultima required you to make notes that could be useful in later games, it must have been a great feeling to solve puzzles in later games due to notes ?

Due to Apartheid sanctions and then it ending and RL changes I never played any of the CRPG but I did play U8 in 1995/6 and I loved it. I knew about the Ultima world from reading Dragon magazines and I always wanted to play the games. I got back into gaming in 2007 and I bought my first gaming machine and I played Ultima Online for 2 years. It was great fun but the world is empty of most players and events from the past dont mean much to a new players. But I do explore the world of Ultima

I am definitely going to play the Ultima series now but I will probably start on 4 as someone suggested because of the age of the old games ?

And then I am not use to making maps or notes on paper, is it required or can you use automap and similar features?
There are no automaps in the mainline Ultimas. There is an automap in Ultima Underworld 1 and 2.

If you want the best of the series, play 4, 5, 6, Underworld 1, 7, Underworld 2, 7-2 in that order. They are all one big arc with the same consistent characters and world (except Underworld 1 but it is there because it is just that good a story). The others are pretty fucked.
Thats what I want to achieve, I am looking for the story arc. I have played Ultima Underworld 1&2 years ago but I have forgotten the narrative so they will be exciting. Im also glad most of you guys are suggesting I can start on U4 because I dont feel I need to play the older games unless everyone's advice was " no you must start on U1 or you wont understand or appreciate the broader narrative "

The Dragon magazines I use to read were from 1988-1990 or so and they always had a page under the PC RPG section that described a summary of the persons experience playing CRPG and Ultima was often discussed. Its funny because you would think I would have been confused because it was about characters and dungeons I had never heard of but I picked up enough that Ultima had a deep narrative that I had never seen before and the things I remember were indelible like the virtues and the experiences of your party

About 8 months ago I mentioned on Obsidian that I will be playing Ultima and that there are active gamers on Codex who are still playing the series which matters because advice is relevant and also its tells you about the fun factor. And one member responded that he played Ultima when each game was released like most of you guys and he told me how he use to do research in RL in some of the Ultima games about where shrines and moongates were ...it was very rewarding he said and interesting how like LarryTyphoid he used notes and it helped solve puzzles

And are the user mods like Lazarus recommended ?
 

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2,233
Im also glad most of you guys are suggesting I can start on U4 because I dont feel I need to play the older games unless everyone's advice was " no you must start on U1 or you wont understand or appreciate the broader narrative "
Ultima 1-3 are referenced frequently in later games, but their plots are so simple that you can get absolutely all of the details simply by reading the recaps in U4's manual (and every manual after that). In fact, I think this is the superior way to experience the story, because the descriptions of those games' events makes them seem a lot more dramatic and epic than they actually were. The recaps also leave out the stupid shit like spaceships, laser guns, elves, dwarves, and time machines. The broader narrative begins at U4.
And are the user mods like Lazarus recommended ?
I have yet to play them myself, but I hear that they're really good, especially Lazarus. But you should definitely play the original games before getting into any fanmade content.
 

KeighnMcDeath

RPG Codex Boomer
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Messages
15,730
Now, when I see Ultima Online it looks like it is in fast forward chaos bleck in videos by vloggers/streamers. A couple of examples:




Ok enough pwnstar dude... they seemed to be the first vids popping up.


Nigh Empty server? Well, less PK I guess.



The Exodus chapters in UO had me intrigued from the mags back in the day but that is because Ultima III was/is my favorite ultima. No virtue shit. (Albeit, you could completely exploit parts of the later games by being nasty evilish and get your virtue back. U8 rather sucked for more than just the getting caught stealing but that was fucking atrocious.
 

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