Ultima The Ultima Underworld I & II Thread

[Unkillable Cat]

Yeah, that line came out wrong for me (early in the morning here). I put those words as a placeholder while working on other stuff in the post, and forgot to clarify.

Sorry about that.

 

[jewboy]

If Ultima Underworld was not the first smooth scrolling first person perspective 3D game then what was? It is so fucking annoying when people make statements like that and then back them up with nothing. It is commonly and widely accepted that Ultima Underworld was first. Some people mistakenly believed that Wolfenstein 3D came before Ultima Underworld but you don't seem to. So exactly what game are you referring to?

 

[V_K]

If Ultima Underworld was not the first smooth scrolling first person perspective 3D game then what was?

There were quite a few smooth scrolling games before UUW, even RPGS - Drakhen, Sleeping God's Lie etc.
UUW's innovation was that it actually had a third (vertical) dimension, not smooth scrolling.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

If Ultima Underworld was not the first smooth scrolling first person perspective 3D game then what was? It is so fucking annoying when people make statements like that and then back them up with nothing. It is commonly and widely accepted that Ultima Underworld was first. Some people mistakenly believed that Wolfenstein 3D came before Ultima Underworld but you don't seem to. So exactly what game are you referring to?

While I apologize that I didn't provide documented and certified evidence to strengthen my statement, I must give a at the underlined part of yours.

Ultima Underworld was released in March 1992. Wolfenstein 3D was released in May 1992. These are facts I'm not disputing.

However, more facts present the true picture: John Carmack of iD Software saw a Underworld tech demo sometime in late 1990/early 1991, thought "that's nice, but I can do better" and then went and did exactly that.

He spent six weeks researching the engine, and the first game to use that engine was released sometime in 1991 called Hovertank 3D.

Later iD Software released Catacomb 3D in November 1991. Wolfenstein 3D uses the same engine as these two games.

So Carmack, starting later than Blue Sky Productions, still managed to be quicker than them to release a smooth-scrolling 3D engine utilizing the first-person perspective. (He managed to do that by skimping out on the z-angle, but that's already been said.)

And that's just to settle the Wolfenstein argument. As V_K pointed out there are other games that did the same before both of them. The Midwinter games, the Mercenary game series, Cybercon 3 and Interphase, and if the machine running them was powerful enough the games made on the Freescape engine (six in total) also qualify. That's roughly a dozen games named right here, and I'm certain when I say there's probably another dozen out there that fit the bill.

Ultima Underworld wasn't the first, but it was still an important milestone on the path.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

People think casters are underpowered in UU?


Admittedly I’m not as familiar with UU2, but at least in the first game casters are significantly stronger and more versatile in the mid & late game.

 

[V_K]

in the mid & late game.

Which you need to survive long enough to reach.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

in the mid & late game.

Which you need to survive long enough to reach.

Sure, but that’s a pretty common RPG convention. I don’t see people complaining that wizards are underpowered in NWN.

 

[V_K]

in the mid & late game.

Which you need to survive long enough to reach.

Sure, but that’s a pretty common RPG convention. I don’t see people complaining that wizards are underpowered in NWN.

Well in NWN you have fighter companions to carry you through the early levels. Not so much in UW.

 

[vota DC]

Casters are just difficult if you never raise melee skills and go to pure caster, but if you go pure archer with a ranger or pure trader with a shepherd is a lot more difficult, even impossible.

 

[JarlFrank]

So Carmack, starting later than Blue Sky Productions, still managed to be quicker than them to release a smooth-scrolling 3D engine utilizing the first-person perspective. (He managed to do that by skimping out on the z-angle, but that's already been said.)

Which means it's not actually 3D

Personally I don't consider Wolfenstein 3D and its ilk to be any more "3D" than the first person dungeon crawlers of the 80s and 90s - Wizardry, Might and Magic, and the countless clones. Yes, Wolf 3D is an action game and movement is smooth, but it's still a 2D game with a first person perspective.

Ultima Underworld is actually 3D.

But yes the Freescape engine did true 3D much earlier, and was probably even more extensive on its 3-dimensionality than UU was (if we consider walkable spaces that go underneath or above other walkable spaces and such).

 

[Fowyr]

Freescape

Smooth AND 3D.
Though I wonder about its bridges, were they "real" bridges or not. Ultima Underworld's bridges were really objects (just cast Kal Vas Corp and see how every object, even bridges and doors turn to dust).

 

[BEvers]

I wish Neurath would release the source code to UW1 and UW2 into the wild. Anonymously if necessary.

I agree with this. Neurath's new company (Otherside Entertainment) has the source code to both games, but for some strange reason hasn't released it, or tried to make modern ports of the games.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Releasing the source code in full would, obviously, not end well because Electronic Arse.

But what about using the source code to create an up-to-date shell around the game so that it works as intended on modern-day systems? It wouldn't count as a remaster, but it would greatly extend the game's reach.

If they could do that, plus allow users to redefine keybindings (and fix the bugs!) they could have something on their hands. Leave everything else untouched. "Ultima Underworld Revisited"?

 

[danilopiazza]

in the mid & late game.

Which you need to survive long enough to reach.

Playing as a caster with low fighting skills doesn't make the early game hard.

Magic provides light (Light), food (Create Fold), healing (Lesser Heal), protection (Resist Blows) and enough mana to stop worrying about running out of it. Enemies can easily be defeated even with poor melee skills and the occasional Magic Arrow, if they flee.

In the mid game, combat requires some tactics: lure individual enemies away from groups in order to never fight more than one opponent, hit and run to prevent damage, use magical weapons to get better accuracy (thank you, Name Enchantment).

But I agree that some skill points must be put into Attack, Defense and weapon skills, otherwise fights become long and tedious, with a high chance ti damage your weapon.

In Labyrinth of Worlds, enemies are tougher, but the Bleeding Spell will give a huge help!

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

If Ultima Underworld was not the first smooth scrolling first person perspective 3D game then what was? It is so fucking annoying when people make statements like that and then back them up with nothing. It is commonly and widely accepted that Ultima Underworld was first. Some people mistakenly believed that Wolfenstein 3D came before Ultima Underworld but you don't seem to. So exactly what game are you referring to?

While I apologize that I didn't provide documented and certified evidence to strengthen my statement, I must give a at the underlined part of yours.

Ultima Underworld was released in March 1992. Wolfenstein 3D was released in May 1992. These are facts I'm not disputing.

However, more facts present the true picture: John Carmack of iD Software saw a Underworld tech demo sometime in late 1990/early 1991, thought "that's nice, but I can do better" and then went and did exactly that.

He spent six weeks researching the engine, and the first game to use that engine was released sometime in 1991 called Hovertank 3D.

Later iD Software released Catacomb 3D in November 1991. Wolfenstein 3D uses the same engine as these two games.

So Carmack, starting later than Blue Sky Productions, still managed to be quicker than them to release a smooth-scrolling 3D engine utilizing the first-person perspective. (He managed to do that by skimping out on the z-angle, but that's already been said.)

And that's just to settle the Wolfenstein argument. As V_K pointed out there are other games that did the same before both of them. The Midwinter games, the Mercenary game series, Cybercon 3 and Interphase, and if the machine running them was powerful enough the games made on the Freescape engine (six in total) also qualify. That's roughly a dozen games named right here, and I'm certain when I say there's probably another dozen out there that fit the bill.

Ultima Underworld wasn't the first, but it was still an important milestone on the path.

You are reaching. It was 3d, textured environments with modelled objects in 3d (not sprites), with simulated neutonian physics, water/buyancy, inclines, actual 3d interactivity with the environment.

Nobody else was able to technically match those capabilities for 4+ years. Not ID or anyone else.

 

[someone else]

I have old UW2 LP with mage.
Magic missile the 2 gazers at the start for lots of xp.
UW2 you pick can pick up an item early that greatly boost your combat skills.

Spoiler

Chain cowl of Valor

 

[jewboy]

Hmm. Ok. I stand corrected. And yes it is annoying. You would be annoyed too. I didn't ask for documentation. Just at least one reference to an earlier 3D (looking) game that was smooth scrolling. Drakhen appears even to have had some basic textures. Of course the game looks like shit compared to UW, but still.

Are you sure Carmack was thinking he could do it 'better'? Ray casting wasn't better. It was just faster. And anyway he didn't have the source code. So he could only guess at how Neurath's MIT guys were doing it. So he came up with an idea for a faster version of ray tracing. IMO not as good an idea. Wolfenstein 3D and Doom may have at least looked better if he had used the same methods as Neurath's team. Those games have not stood the test of time as well as UW even just for the CG. Wolfenstein 3D in particular wasn't exactly pretty. It was fun, but it really could have used some decent texturing. In those days there were so many smart people like Carmack who were obsessed with coding efficiency, with getting very slow computers to do interesting stuff. In a way I think it was a fun time to be a programmer. These days few people care about getting every last CPU cycle to do as much as possible. Well except for the embedded guys, but they aren't usually writing games.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

You are reaching. It was 3d, textured environments with modelled objects in 3d (not sprites), with simulated neutonian physics, water/buyancy, inclines, actual 3d interactivity with the environment.

Nobody else was able to technically match those capabilities for 4+ years. Not ID or anyone else.

No I was not reaching. I was merely defeating the argument as it was presented. I am well aware of the full ramifications of Ultima Underworld.

I didn't ask for documentation.
...
Are you sure Carmack was thinking he could do it 'better'?

>Stating you didn't ask for verification.
>Asks for verification.

Yesterday was kinda hectic for me so I couldn't devote enough time to the replies in this thread and I was going from memory. Now I have free time to dig a little deeper, starting with this quote from Retro Gamer #177 that shows Carmack's true response:

John Carmack saw Ultima Underworld at E3. He basically went "Oh Shit!" and went home and, because he was a genius, within like a month he had duplicated the tech and actually done it better.

While the above quote probably only references the texture mapper, it does gives an idea of what Blue Sky Productions were up to, and how they influenced one of the greatest programmers ever to git gud.

Ray casting wasn't better. It was just faster. And anyway he didn't have the source code. So he could only guess at how Neurath's MIT guys were doing it. So he came up with an idea for a faster version of ray tracing. IMO not as good an idea. Wolfenstein 3D and Doom may have at least looked better if he had used the same methods as Neurath's team. Those games have not stood the test of time as well as UW even just for the CG. Wolfenstein 3D in particular wasn't exactly pretty. It was fun, but it really could have used some decent texturing.

Your fanboyism is really showing now. I love Ultima Underworld as well, but I'm more rooted into realism. And there is one further piece to the puzzle that actually provides evidence that Ultima Underworld did not have as smooth scrolling as we'd all like to think: A game released the same year called Legends of Valour that tried oh-so hard to be like Ultima Underworld. It didn't quite succeed, but as it was less resource-taxing it was also released on the Amiga and Atari ST.

Someone did see a reason to run this ad in PC magazines though:

:D

And I recall another ad from that time where review snippets said something along the lines of "...has smoother scrolling than Ultima Underworld".

The fact of the matter was that you needed a beefy PC (by 1992 standards) to run Ultima Underworld at all, and only the brand new 486 machines could run it smoothly. Meanwhile games like Wolfenstein 3D and Legends of Valour could run on 286 computers (not very smoothly, mind you).

So in conclusion: Ultima Underworld was years ahead of its time (and actually still remains uncontested in some ways) but it was not the first smooth-scrolling first-person perspective 3D game out there, and due to taxing hardware requirements it was difficult to get the game to run smoothly at first.

I think the above sentence describes UUW1 quite accurately. Anyone disagree?

 

[Fowyr]

Meanwhile games like Wolfenstein 3D and Legends of Valour could run on 286 computers (not very smoothly, mind you).

Yea, I played Wolf3D on 286 with 1 Mb RAM and it worked perfectly just in sligtly smaller window.

 

[jewboy]

Well my 486DX-33 with 8MB of ram had no problems. It did cost 3200 USD though. I had to hold up quite a few liquor stores and steal a lot of old lady's handbags to pay for that. But Ultima Underworld made it all worth it. You poor poor 286 people should have been selling heroin or working as prostitutes. That was one damn slow machine. I never tried to play Legends of Valour. Was it any good?

As for the rest yes Carmack really was a programming god, but imo he put too much emphasis on performance. I loved Wolf3D though. Great fun, but ugly as hell. Ultima Underworld was a beautiful game by early 90s standards. Carmack was willing to sacrifice the quality of the CG in order to support lower end hardware. A choice which to me as a 486 owner seemed...well...unfortunate. He was a clever fellow though. RIP, JC.

 

[Fowyr]

I never tried to play Legends of Valour. Was it any good?

I played it just for hour or two and it was pretty bad. Can't remember much now, too much years have passed.

 

[Taxnomore]

I think I remember liking it a lot but this was a world where I had already played Daggerfall... so there was not much point in playing it.

It was however ported to Amiga and Atari and I figure it was much more interesting for owners of these platforms. Maybe.

 

[octavius]

I managed to complete UU on a 386, but it was not a smooth ride. You needed a 486 for that.

Wolfenstein is so primitive that it doesn't really compare, and unlike Doom it must have aged badly.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Lots of hyperbole in articles and interviews from the time. Nobody had seen anything like it. Had they not shared the demo, UW would have released completely out of nowhere. As it was plenty of people scrambled to be first but nobody was close. Not until Doom2 did ID come close. Wolf and Doom both were rudimentary by comparison.

I remember what a letdown Arena was.

 

[Fowyr]

Not until Doom2 did ID come close. Wolf and Doom both were rudimentary by comparison.

Come close to that? UUW? Then why do you think that Doom is rudimentary and Doom 2 is close? Engine speaking, there is almost no difference between Doom 1 and Doom2.

I remember what a letdown Arena was.

It was also preceded by Terminator: Rampage that used the same engine. Finished it. The game itself was pretty abominable.