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Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

DraQ

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It's still only your opinion, meaning it's subjective
Is it subjective that ninja can focus on daggers? No.
Is it subjective that ninjato and sai are both fairly high-end daggers while also ninja exclusive? No.
Is it subjective that there is a good chance neither of those weapons will actually appear in given game? No.
Is it subjective that ninja can't use other high-end daggers such as stiletto? No.

Then what the fuck is subjective about allowing ninja to use ninja-specific weapons he can specialize in?

Oh, and ninja is definitely not OP in Wiz8, and flexibility only means something when you're planning long term.

Maybe with some advanced hex hacking skills, but not with what CF editor allows. We are talking about what's in range of a Wiz8 modder, not a Codex Workshop ideal game scenario.
Then removing magic grinding exploits is not in range unless you castrate the fuck out of the entire magic system.

Quantity vs. quality difference. Stuff like mixing potions is a tolerable sort of grind since it takes a very long time and costs a fortune (assuming the Alchemy abuse is fixed as well)
And how do you intend to fix alchemy abuse so that not only does it not earn party fortune, but actually costs a lot? Make high end potions dirt cheap?

Bishop is a totally different scenario since all he does in combat is cast spells. As a Samurai, for instance, you're almost always better off slashing at opponents instead of spamming a weakly nuke in close quarters.
All samurai needs to pump up magic as effectively as 4-schooler (barring int influence) is to spend quarter of his battle time casting. There are plenty of spells that can be advantageous to cast even for a slashy-slashy hybrid (freeze flesh anyone?), there are many occasions when your samurai will spend his turn outside of melee range or when he will be better served casting crowd control spells than slicing single target and then there is missile shield and enchanted blade samurai will likely be casting religiously after camping.


Monocause, I_am_Ian:
Actually, of all classes Bard is ripe for multiclassing. Apart from class specific gear (ok, loss of Ring of The Road or two will hurt) there is nothing to lose this way. Instruments can be used by any class as long as you have music skill and appropriate Bard level, neither faster resting nor communication bonus are that valuable and Bard can already be proficient at combat as either ranged or melee specialist, so all you get is special ability and skill boost (useful one, in exchange for communication) of your new class plus possibly wider selection of equipment.

Sure, your new class may be stuck at level 1, but as a Rogue you still get massive increase in damage from even low level backstab, as Fighter you can berserk with any weapon, not just Bloodlust, so you can deal far more damage, regen stamina (for instruments) and you can wear some decent plate, etc.
 

Lonely Vazdru

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Monocause

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Lonely Vazdru:

I can't really help you with your issue as 90% of my experience with Wiz8 is number crunching and playing the spreadsheet, and only 10% the actual gameplay; the consequence of this fact is that I never finished the game and never reached as far as you did. I usually get burned out with the mob fights once my characters get around lvl 13 and levelling slows down considerably.

DraQ:

If you want all the instruments I gather that the bard is ripe for multiclassing around level 18 and after you max out music skill. Most of the classes are ripe for multiclassing at that point except for the ones that depend on their special abilities ;)

I fiddled with the alchemist-ranger mix. It seems that the most profitable way to go is to start at ranger, then switch to alchemist for a couple of levels, then switch back to ranger before you leave the monastery. If you invest into ranged combat during your alchemist levels the SP you'll miss out with the bow won't matter much and it'll help you kickstart your casting. Still, I'm going to ditch the ranger altogether - I believe bows lose steam quickly even with ranged crits and search mode isn't that worthwhile. I'd better pick a valk or a nuker.
 

I_am_Ian

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Interesting ideas about multiclassing a pure caster to a hybrid. Usually when I use a hybrid I find that when magic becomes available to them they're so horrible at it that I end up just training them which is lame. By multiclassing with their pure caster counterpart I can see how it helps speed their magic abilities. I'll try that next time.

Also good to know about the lack of level dependent bonuses in fighters. I always thought the number of attacks and swings per round was dependent to some extent on class level. What about a Monk's damage resistance? That is surely level based, no?
 

Monocause

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This round of number-crunching provided a following experimental party:

- Felpurr warrior->rogue at lvl2. I started off as fighter to get the precious close combat points which will be of help later, to put some points in maces, get points in swords and avoid taking dagger points. The plan is to get lockpicking to 30-40 (should be enough with poseur's cap & knock knock & divine trap), stealth to 50 or 60. Then I switch back to fighter and enjoy a plated dual wielding berserking angry kitty. Could be done with a popular fighter choice, ie. a dracon, but a kitty starts with way higher speed and somewhat better intelligence which is important for close combat. Also - no mental issues. Basically I want to get to 80 SPD as fast as possible to get the AC bonus, get SEN to 60 and then focus on STR and DEX. I suspect that when I couple rogue's stealth with heavy armor and Reflection I can neglect the VIT somewhat. HP count will still be decent.

- Human Samurai. I picked a human since I wanted to have a fair piety that wouldn't gimp my spellcasting later on. Thought about getting a mage level but that would mean too much of a sacrifice.

- Human Monk. Will develop spellcasting too. Getting psionics levels wouldn't be worth it since I need every chance i can get to put points into stealth, crit and MA. Might be more viable if I wanted a staff monk, but what's the point of making a monk if you won't get him to fight barehanded?

- Human Valkyrie. Will develop spellcasting and fight from the flank or the back, depending on the situation. Once I get Vi I'll definitely put both valks on flanks and gouge people's eyes. And listen to Wagner while doing it.

No multi for the above three hybrids as there's no real worthwhile synergy for them.

- Elf Mage -> Bishop at lvl2. This guy will concentrate on wizardry and divinity. Since it's only two books I'll start conserving spell picks after I leave the monastery. The bonus to four realms helps a lot for the early bishop. I might develop the remaining spellbooks later on if I feel like it. If I ever reach level 19, however unlikely that is, I'll probably multi the bishops into something that will grant a better armor selection.

- Elf Alchemist -> Bishop at lvl2. Alchemy and psionics. His alchemy is already in mid-twenties and he's got decent throwing to boot, otherwise it's the same as above.


Playing this party is fun. A bit squishy now since I don't have a proper tank but that should pass soon as the rogue and monk develop. The party should start to really shine around lvl 12 once the supporting casters gain access to 4th level spells but the difficulty curve should start flattening once I get to Arnika.

I_am_Ian: It might be that some abilities develop solely over levelling. I read somewhere that Lord's HP regen is level-dependent, and that a monk gets the ability to KO opponents at higher levels. At the same time it's completely possible that you get KO when you cross a certain Martial Arts threshold, and that Lord's regen is simply based on a percentage of your HP. I will test the monk out tomorrow - first I'll set all his relevant skills to 100 and check his combat stats, then I'll level him up to 20 to see if anything changes.

Seems to me that Wiz doesn't have any D&D elements like this and that all the abilities and derived stats are skill and stat dependent instead of level dependent; levels just give you access to stat and skill increases and, in case of mages, new spells. Might be that that's all there is to levelling.

As to the caster -> hybrid switch, I think that the only decent ones are 4lvl priest->lord and ranger->2 or 3 lvl alchemist->back to ranger. Priest->valk can be done to a degree of success but it'd be best if you'd switch at lvl2 so that you don't skip too much of polearms use.

The issue with mage->samurai and psionic->monk is that you need to spend 5 additional stat points on intelligence that would be much better spent elsewhere, seeing as how the hybrids are already hard pressed for stats. Also, while the priest has got decent HP and can train maces the lord will use, and the alchemist can train the ranged combat for the ranger there isn't such a synergy for mages and psionics. Another bad thing about it is that Monks and Samurais are frontliners while mages and psionics are the squishiest of all the classes; the lack of HP will make early game a pain in the ass.

I say it's better to stick with pure samurais and monks. Developing psionics for the monk should be easy enough on its own (just mindstab whatever's not in range of your fists and support the party with basic healing), in case of samurais just be sure to pick a race that doesn't have crap piety, as tempting as it may be, or boost it to respectable levels. Remember that piety controls the realm skills and if you leave it at hobbit's or felpurr's 30 then their development will be close to a crawl. I think the piety factor is something people often overlook when making hybrids.

Still wondering about alchemist->ninja since you can develop throwing with an early alchemist nicely and the needed DEX you'd probably purchase anyway, but I never liked the Ninja so I doubt I'll be checking it out.
 

Shadenuat

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It's still only your opinion, meaning it's subjective
Well this argument as a whole is something people say at bioware social when they don't have anything else to say, it's pretty much close to "your words are only few bytes of text".

Lonely Vazdru
Sorry bro I had some bug of that kind too when I was working for both factions, and giving Chaos Moliri worked, but that was in un-patched version. Did you pay gold to He'Li and Rattis to keep 'em silent?
 

Kashrlyyk

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I'm pretty stuck in my iron man game. I decided to side with the T'rang and destroyed the Umpani ship, now all Umpanis are hostile and I can't report to Kunar. Can't report to Z'ant either since I got the "hostile Z'ant" bug, I know the workaround and use the chaos moliri to speak to him but he doesn't acknowledge my mission's success even though I typed a shit-ton of different words... what am I to do ? :(
As far as I remember you don't need to finish that sidequest. As long as you have all three artifacts you can finish the game.
 

Lonely Vazdru

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It's still only your opinion, meaning it's subjective
Sorry bro I had some bug of that kind too when I was working for both factions, and giving Chaos Moliri worked, but that was in un-patched version. Did you pay gold to He'Li and Rattis to keep 'em silent?
Yes I paid. And giving the chaos moliri works, I can speak to Z'ant but I don't get credit for destroying the Umpani. If I type "mission" for instance, Z'ant repeats me what I am to do, even though I already did it. For the previous mission, I used the chaos moliri on him and typed the dark savant ship coordinates and it worked but here I can't find a keyword that triggers the quest end.

As far as I remember you don't need to finish that sidequest. As long as you have all three artifacts you can finish the game.
Cool, I already have them. I'm playing all I can anyway, currently at Rapax castle, I'll see if I can ascend and finish.
 

DraQ

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Most of the classes are ripe for multiclassing at that point except for the ones that depend on their special abilities ;)
The thing is most classes have worthwhile special abilities, primary skill or item selection.

For example, you wouldn't want to multiclass a well developed gadgeteer because that would mean loss of omnigun (and +25% to modern weapons), you wouldn't want to multiclass a high level fighter, because this would effectively halve his damage potential (no berserk), you probably wouldn't want to multiclass rogue because loss of backstab would really shit on his damage (although multiclassing to fighter late in game - when you get good enough stuff to compensate for Bloodlust getting redundant, and replace backstab with berserk - might work) and so on.

Ok, you might want to multiclass Samurai or Lord to fighter in some cases, because it comes at relatively little cost and will generally increase your damage potential (lightning strike being whimsical and unreliable), but what else?

OTOH Bard is extra malleable.
 

Shadenuat

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I used Mook Ranger with it in my full-ranged party. Pretty badass, but need to deal with low amount of attacks somehow. But when it hits it hurts.
 

Berekän

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Is there any way to reduce the amount of filler combat in this game?

Also, what are the numbers right at the side of the name of the monsters? I'm talking about:

3 Green Slime (3/x/y)
 

Lonely Vazdru

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Is there any way to reduce the amount of filler combat in this game?
Running.

Also, what are the numbers right at the side of the name of the monsters? I'm talking about:

3 Green Slime (3/x/y)
Active/In range/In view.

Damn, those traps are nasty when playing iron man. Even though my gadgeteer has high "Locks & traps" skill + "Divine trap 7", I still triggered two consecutive "Heatwave" trapped chests and lost more than 100 potions. All of them high end (restoration, pick me up, granite, renewal, cure disease...).

:butthurt:
 

Berekän

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I've always disliked having to grind for anything. I know the meat of this game is the combat, but when walking to the shop to sell something becomes a chore in monster killing I can't help but dislike the amount of it.
 

Monocause

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Use the shift key, lure groups to other places and then return. Stop caring about mobs, just run. The sooner you learn avoiding combat the better; chameleon spell helps. In earlier levels it's also good to develop your mages so that you can just spend all your MP on powerful AoE spells and then just take a nap when the group that stopped you is dead.
 

Major_Blackhart

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Use the shift key, lure groups to other places and then return. Stop caring about mobs, just run. The sooner you learn avoiding combat the better; chameleon spell helps. In earlier levels it's also good to develop your mages so that you can just spend all your MP on powerful AoE spells and then just take a nap when the group that stopped you is dead.

This. Plus the fact that getting your back into one of the extremely high corner areas in Arnika Road near the teleporter house just outside the monastery can be fucking phenomenal for sleeping and waiting for enemies to come to you.
 

Lonely Vazdru

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Finished my almost iron man game (I reloaded only once). That game is really good, no two ways about it. The ending (Ascension peak and Cosmic circle) is pretty bland and disappointing, not to say shitty, though. The "bosses" of Ascension peak, for instance, are cakewalk by the time you get there. They were all easily K.Oed/Paralyzed/Blinded and barely touched me. Plus, enlarged sprites pretending to be giants don't cut it.
Still, many great games endings are disappointing and the rest is really good. Will replay for the Nth time. :)
 

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