Dungeon Lord
Scholar
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2015
- Messages
- 240
-
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Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread
- Thread starter Major_Blackhart
- Start date
Wizfall
Cipher
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2012
- Messages
- 816
I would say 3 FIghters, 1 Samurai/Bard/Gadgeter.
With Bard and gadgetter you have largely enough healing and all the protection buff needed except elemental shield (the only purpose of taking a samurai over another fighter)
No low hp class which is nice when you get hit by AoE spells and no danger of running out of MP make this party very low on the micromanagement side too.
Personnally i find borring to take two characters of the same class though.
Dungeon Lord
Scholar
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2015
- Messages
- 240
This is a screenshot from Secrets of Alderan. Have you played it? I have got some "old smilies" and I do not know that is because of the aged men or everybody knows about this wiz7 mod?
Well then, this concludes my long-ass journey through Wizardry 6-8.
I started this in April. Where has all the time gone?
Wiz8 remains as excellent as ever. Bestest RPG evar made tied only with Betrayal at Krondor in the prestigious Roxorowski Ranking.
That is all.
I started this in April. Where has all the time gone?
Wiz8 remains as excellent as ever. Bestest RPG evar made tied only with Betrayal at Krondor in the prestigious Roxorowski Ranking.
That is all.
Time for the ultimate oriental smackdown.
this is gonna suck so hard
Grampy_Bone
Arcane
Only until you get nunchucks
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2013
- Messages
- 3,351
I have not done that journey. Does it add much to go in order?
2x SAM using bow/swords/spears and 4x NIN all throwing shit with auto-pen is probably the best offensive party in wiz8, especially if 1 of the sam's uses that berserker sword and racks up lightning strikes when the enemy comes close.
as for the question of whether there is a party combination that "breaks" a wizardry game: no, there isn't.
There also isn't any combination which makes the games unwinnable either, though that holds less true with Wiz 6-8 where the class balance isn't as good as in other Wizardry games.
i suppose rolling a party of 6x mages in a wizardry game would be borderline torture until they get nuking spells or something but who the hell would do that anyway? i assume the question is assuming the player is making a real playthrough not a gimmick one.
as for the question of whether there is a party combination that "breaks" a wizardry game: no, there isn't.
There also isn't any combination which makes the games unwinnable either, though that holds less true with Wiz 6-8 where the class balance isn't as good as in other Wizardry games.
i suppose rolling a party of 6x mages in a wizardry game would be borderline torture until they get nuking spells or something but who the hell would do that anyway? i assume the question is assuming the player is making a real playthrough not a gimmick one.
In Wizardry Empire 2 the Race/Alignment Compatability system can make a playthrough "easy mode" or "harder mode". Each race gains +1 Compatability Point for every party member whom they get along with, some examples being:
Humans get along with every race except Draconians so they gain nor lose anything (Draconians dislike humans so instead of +0 they actually get a malus of -1), except Faeries grant a +1 for every human party member. Faeries are disliked by Werebeasts (Werebeasts have hunted them down almost to extinction) so there's a -1 for every combination of those two, etc. Elves and Dwarves similarly dislike each other, etc.
Neutral-aligned party members give nor receive nothing and Good/Evil give +1 or -1 to each other if in the same party.
After everything's totaled up the modifier, whether positive or negative, gets applied across the board to every party member's attributes so you can really give yourself a hard time by making a party that dislikes each other's races and alignments, or it can end up turning into a situation like that if you're not careful with the Alignment changes.
The Race/Alignment Compatability system is a big part of why Empire 2 is such a great Wizardry game. (My personal favorite, with Wiz 5 in 2nd place, Wizardry 8 in third place, and Wiz 6 in fourth place).
Wiz Empire 2 also features a fantastic addition to armor where torso-pieces usually give a negative modifier to THAC the sturdier they are (i.e. the lower they drop that Armor Class), and the obvious reverse happening with lighter Torso-pieces grantin bonuses to THAC... usually because of course there are unique pieces which break with those conventions which is what makes them worth getting.
No other Wizardry game offers the same amount of strategic options when playing dress-up with your characters than Empire 2.
(Shields also generally impact THAC proportionally, but using a weapon in the off-hand for dual-wielding imparts a reduction in that area as well, in both cases dependant uniquely on the actual weapon or shield in question giving a very rich flavor to both, especially to a lot of 1-handed weapons; you can also wear up to 2 accessories usually in the form of a ring or a belt in addition to helmet/torso/gloves/leggings)
Humans get along with every race except Draconians so they gain nor lose anything (Draconians dislike humans so instead of +0 they actually get a malus of -1), except Faeries grant a +1 for every human party member. Faeries are disliked by Werebeasts (Werebeasts have hunted them down almost to extinction) so there's a -1 for every combination of those two, etc. Elves and Dwarves similarly dislike each other, etc.
Neutral-aligned party members give nor receive nothing and Good/Evil give +1 or -1 to each other if in the same party.
After everything's totaled up the modifier, whether positive or negative, gets applied across the board to every party member's attributes so you can really give yourself a hard time by making a party that dislikes each other's races and alignments, or it can end up turning into a situation like that if you're not careful with the Alignment changes.
The Race/Alignment Compatability system is a big part of why Empire 2 is such a great Wizardry game. (My personal favorite, with Wiz 5 in 2nd place, Wizardry 8 in third place, and Wiz 6 in fourth place).
Wiz Empire 2 also features a fantastic addition to armor where torso-pieces usually give a negative modifier to THAC the sturdier they are (i.e. the lower they drop that Armor Class), and the obvious reverse happening with lighter Torso-pieces grantin bonuses to THAC... usually because of course there are unique pieces which break with those conventions which is what makes them worth getting.
No other Wizardry game offers the same amount of strategic options when playing dress-up with your characters than Empire 2.
(Shields also generally impact THAC proportionally, but using a weapon in the off-hand for dual-wielding imparts a reduction in that area as well, in both cases dependant uniquely on the actual weapon or shield in question giving a very rich flavor to both, especially to a lot of 1-handed weapons; you can also wear up to 2 accessories usually in the form of a ring or a belt in addition to helmet/torso/gloves/leggings)
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Tbh, I wouldn't say it adds "much"
6->7 import is only there to transfer OP gear that stays with you from start to finish. Also changes starting location.
7->8 import lets you keep only a bunch of stuff (no OP gear), which isn't much to speak of, but still better than starter items. Also influences starting location and gives you a few bits and pieces of characters from wiz7 recognising you, which is p. fun, but there are also hiccups to these. One being that Rodan doesn't recognise you at all in the Rapax camp, second that the game doesn't/can't detect whether you've imported it all the way from 6, because Bela won't recognise you either. Giving him back Rebecca's ring is also not all that it's made to be tbh, but in this case I'd say iz ZE JOURNEY that matters, not the destination
Not to mention the sheer coolness of there being a quest spanning 3 games over 10 years.I have sword sammy, hth monkor, throwing/spear/bow/nunchucks ninjas.
in hindsight bow might have been a mistake since it doesnt profit from crits, but eh the later bows and arrerz have good enough inherent kill chances anyway
Also, early parts of the game are surprisingly hard when all your 6 dudes are sorta squishy and nobody can reliably cast heal wounds better than power level 1
This has to be my first playthrough (out of 4) where I consistently use potions etc.
draug
Novice
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2017
- Messages
- 15
Is there a mod for Wizardry 8 that rebalances/reduces the number of encounters? I just finished most of Trynton and wanted to kill myself after all those long drawn out bug fights (Trynton guards didn't exactly speed things along either).
Also fuck these fucking alligators in the swamp.
Also fuck these fucking alligators in the swamp.
Jrpgfan
are you being serious? I don't want to waste words on bait posts.
TLDR of it is Wiz scenarios 1-3 (and 4) are completely different genres than wiz 6-8 (which, btw, is not the last trilogy), and there is no way to make a simple list of differences as the trilogies are as apart from each other as two different games can possibly be, each with their own fan base with little overlap.
Wiz 1-4 have better mechanics and game play, while wiz 6-8 featured better graphics. (although this point becomes moot if you play the graphical remakes of wiz 1-4).
I recommend playing the graphical remakes of wiz 1-3, btw, either the snes or PSX ones (I prefer the psx versions but the snes versions have beautiful sprite art). As for which versions of wiz 6-8 although there is a snes version of wiz 6 with better graphics I recommend the original DOS version, and 7/8 obviously their original PC versions.
If you've never played any Wizardry game, and truly are so little exposed to Wizardry, then IMO there's no better starting point than Wizardry 1, either snes or PSX version. In any case you can then find out for yourself what Wizardry is all about and if you actually do end up playing I envy you to be able to experience this fresh!
are you being serious? I don't want to waste words on bait posts.
TLDR of it is Wiz scenarios 1-3 (and 4) are completely different genres than wiz 6-8 (which, btw, is not the last trilogy), and there is no way to make a simple list of differences as the trilogies are as apart from each other as two different games can possibly be, each with their own fan base with little overlap.
Wiz 1-4 have better mechanics and game play, while wiz 6-8 featured better graphics. (although this point becomes moot if you play the graphical remakes of wiz 1-4).
I recommend playing the graphical remakes of wiz 1-3, btw, either the snes or PSX ones (I prefer the psx versions but the snes versions have beautiful sprite art). As for which versions of wiz 6-8 although there is a snes version of wiz 6 with better graphics I recommend the original DOS version, and 7/8 obviously their original PC versions.
If you've never played any Wizardry game, and truly are so little exposed to Wizardry, then IMO there's no better starting point than Wizardry 1, either snes or PSX version. In any case you can then find out for yourself what Wizardry is all about and if you actually do end up playing I envy you to be able to experience this fresh!
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Wireframe graphic.
Dungeons are harder to map.
Simpler character system. The system in 6 and 7 is like an accountant's dream game, and really triggers the OCD in some players.
Right.
Jrpgfan
Erudite
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2016
- Messages
- 2,136
I'm being serious. I've already played the last trilogy but never played the first one, so I'd like to know what's different so I can make a decision.
Hmm I really liked the robust character system in 6 and 7. Actually that's one of the things I like the most in blobbers(atleast the ones I've played). Chargen is usually very complex and allow for a shitton of builds.
Wireframe graphic.
Dungeons are harder to map.
Simpler character system. The system in 6 and 7 is like an accountant's dream game, and really triggers the OCD in some players.
Right.
Hmm I really liked the robust character system in 6 and 7. Actually that's one of the things I like the most in blobbers(atleast the ones I've played). Chargen is usually very complex and allow for a shitton of builds.
Jrpgfan
They're completely different. I recommend playing on your own though instead of comparing, it's an apples and oranges situation. There are more options in Wiz 6-8 as far as races and skills go, though later Wizardries after 8 continue expanding on races and classes (and spells), it is absolutely true that Wiz 1-4 offer less options than 6-8; remember that Wiz 8 came out 30+ years afterwards, with the inherent iteration one would expect. Wiz 1-4's options are more meaningful though due to the tighter system design, but this is something you'll only find out for yourself if you play the games.
If your intent is just to play an older Wizardry scenario I recommend just playing Wiz 5 as it is the best scenario out of all of them, and then I would normally recommend playing Wiz 6 but it appears you've already done so; so I would say play Wiz 5 then play Wizardry Empire 2 which continues the iteration of races, classes, skills, spells and NPC/puzzles of Wiz 5 and Wiz 6 and expands on them and additionally also expands on the itemization and alignment systems.
There is no real compelling story interaction between 1-4 that would necessitate playing them (and not playing 5), and it would be a shame if you didn't play the best one simply because you want to play the first three but then stop; I'd say it's much more important to experience 5 instead of doing that.
They're completely different. I recommend playing on your own though instead of comparing, it's an apples and oranges situation. There are more options in Wiz 6-8 as far as races and skills go, though later Wizardries after 8 continue expanding on races and classes (and spells), it is absolutely true that Wiz 1-4 offer less options than 6-8; remember that Wiz 8 came out 30+ years afterwards, with the inherent iteration one would expect. Wiz 1-4's options are more meaningful though due to the tighter system design, but this is something you'll only find out for yourself if you play the games.
If your intent is just to play an older Wizardry scenario I recommend just playing Wiz 5 as it is the best scenario out of all of them, and then I would normally recommend playing Wiz 6 but it appears you've already done so; so I would say play Wiz 5 then play Wizardry Empire 2 which continues the iteration of races, classes, skills, spells and NPC/puzzles of Wiz 5 and Wiz 6 and expands on them and additionally also expands on the itemization and alignment systems.
There is no real compelling story interaction between 1-4 that would necessitate playing them (and not playing 5), and it would be a shame if you didn't play the best one simply because you want to play the first three but then stop; I'd say it's much more important to experience 5 instead of doing that.
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I have to admit that the game is beginning to grow on me. I went ang googled the game's item list and it has ALMOST as many items are an Elminage / Wizardry Empire or Gaiden game, i.e. in the hundreds.
I like that at least all of the basic features modern crawlers need like a full bestiary for you to fill out, and a full "item-estiary" for you to fill out (with cold hard XP award as you progressively discover new enemies/items-armors-accessories, etc).
it is the most basic of the basic but considering how unbelievably low-budget this game was made (this was made specfically as an iOS title, and the PSN port (digital only, didn't get a disc release ever) was simply an afterthought probably because it cost them so little.
The art is anime-bad, NOT anime-good, and that aside I always prefer using traditional Heraldic Iconography stylized to represent a character's Class... the only Wizardry game where I actually approve of the usage of character portraits is, obviously, the to-this-day-still-not-equaled portraits from Wiz 8 and all the other love that went into them.
The fights are hard, but in a surprising shift you can level up inside the dungeon. I don't particular care much about this "mechanic", as it was something born from the way the original Wizardry scenarios (1-5) were programmed and the necessity to have the player rest at an inn to level up (warning: this is pure conjecture on my part) i think was derived in large part because of the way Wiz 1-5 save the game state every "tick" (not every step, btw, as some people think; remember that it also is always saving each game world state during every battle which is why there are the stories of having to be lightning-fast ripping out the game diskettes BEFORE the last character actually died)--
--right, so leveling up in-dungeon? i don't care either way because I am informed on why it has traditionally been otherwise, and unlike every other game playing element or mechanic or system(s) in Wizardry games, both past and modern-day/present ones the level-up in-dungeon change has only a marginal effect on dungeon exploration and the psychological play-player layer that is comprised of: attrition, scarcity, disorientation, fear of the unkonwn and the most important one being the pre-Skinner Box lingo desire to always continue exploring the unknown in hopes of gold and loot or perhaps discovery of a handy-dandy shortcut that eases travel back to town... so on and so forth.
The level up change, to reiterate, does not meaningfully carry any reverbations throughout Wizardry systems and psychology, so It's... fine. That said I still prefer Inn-Leveling because it is just one more small attributation of a Wizardry game's elegantly designed systems of which none exist without doing two the most important jobs of any video game bio-map:
1) being a completed and self-serving closed loop of player interactivty and reactivity
2) and additionally each single one designed as a building block for one or two or more of the other game play systems
That shit is very hard to accomplish, and we can easily count in one hand RPGs which have succeeded in such concise and elegant implementation of such seamless mechanical loops.
So yeah, even though I just wrote almost 3 paragraphis saying that leveling up in-dungeon "ain't nuthin", i just immediately went and wrote around 3 more making sure to attempt to convey that, (in comparison to other designs) this change may indeed not actually change the overall experience in a manner which the majority of players can discern:
- it is still indisputable that it is the subtraction of a small ingredient in the winning Wizardry blueprint which was there for a reason, yes the main one being the programming situation (and I must point out this was not a "blunder" on Wiz creator's part: the continuous, ALWAYS ACTIVE saving of the game world state was very much one of the very first items in whatever they used as the equivalent of a modern day "vision doc")--
--but besides that it just smacks of changing something that people who simply do not understand (or, to be more neutral here, just don't enjoy) Wizardry game play; a change meant to make the game "esaier" (it DOES, but that's not the battle I'd want to fight, there are better ones), but it smacks of a change done because...
"OH HAI GUISE, LETS CHANGE THAT COS ITS OLD AND DUMB I MEAN ALL RPGS LEVEL U UP AFTER BATTLE, ETC, I AM DUMB IMAGINARY PERSON, I HATE MYSELF FOR NOT GRASPING THE DIVINE INTERACTIONS THAT WERE REQUIRED TO HAPPEN FOR WIZARDRY TO HAVE BEEN DESIGNED, ALSO I DO NOT KNOW THAT MOST RPGS FEATURE:
- inferior loot systems to the 30+ year old Wiz 1
- inferior handling of the RPG/video game mainstay of "treasure chests"
- I ALSO DO NOT KNOW that Wizardry's usage of fixed encounters is one of the simplest and most elegant (elegant counter up to 3) adherence to truly "balanced" encounter design.
Anyway i'm tired of typing so:
TL;DR Wiz: LoLS is aight. I give it a solid 3 "Meh..." / 5 "Meh..." in my rating scale. Been there done that, and here's my final claim to rapture:
If you're even THINKING of t4rying out W: LoLS... then go right ahead lol i mean i would be deluded to think anything more about what one person wants to play or not play...
THAT BEING SAID, it would behoove anyone who's itching for Wiz action to arrogantly walk right past W: LoLS and immediately download the fully-translated Windows PC ISO of
- Wizardry Empire 2: Legacy of the Princess, translated by fellow codexers Helly and MrRichard999
ALTERNATIVELY, if you actually want to play the current "real Wizardry" series, then that is called ELMINAGE. Made by the same studio/devs who worked on Wiz Empire 1-3--
--Wiz Emp 1 and 2 (2 especially) being the best designed modern Wizardry scenarios, as they feature the best things from Wiz 6-8 like the new races, the new spells, and the new classes and the weaponry sets/styles, but combine it with the inarguably best-designed Wiz dungeons seen since Wiz 5 with plenty of new additions and some truly, truly ingenious dungeon design that never strays into Wiz 4 territory instead ALWAYS firmly stays in Wiz 5 territory in terms of accessibality, i.e. the Wiz Empire 2 dungeon levels are so GOOD precisely because they masterfully straddle the line between "hard and engaging" and the other side being "this is frustrating and it doesn't feel earned by the game but instead it smacks of designers breaking the authorial contract".
It's everything you loved about Wiz 1-5 (the dungeons, the items, the PERFECT and to-this-day yet to be surpassed Loot System, the simple but so, so elegant (ding) approach to encounter design with the Fixed Encounters and the fact that ONLY Fix. Enc's drop Treasure Chests; the incredibly engaging proto-Skinner Box experiment in small-scale that is every single Chest drop as every single time it brings up more aspects of the underlying psychological ideology of design behind Wizardry:
- The imminent possibility of a party wipe which never, ever fully goes away
- This makes the player weigh his options, some may call them "few" in number, but each and every single one of those options is designed from beginning and its symbiotic end to always carry legitimately important considerations and extrapolation; one might even want to venture into conjecturing that the Treasure Chest scenario in Wizardry (which is not present in 6-8) carries some simple (but obvious) characteristics that seek to stimulate the player into accepting the game world's psychology and raison d'etre:
- Yeah, you're here to get loot, but each treasure chest carries more consequences depedant upon your choices than any other Wizardry game playing mechanic, bar none.
- And if you're a REAL smarty-pants, you probably also noticed that the Treasure Chest Scenario functions as a completely new, additional and seperate Conflict Resolution System that is irrevocably tied to the game Battle System and dungeon and Encounter design philosophies... but serves as an opportunity for the game to show the player not just a completely new, completely seperate conflict resolution AFTER the player has finished playing through the game's REPRESENTATIVE system of conflict, but furthermore: an encouragement for the Player to now think about eeeeeevery other facet of the Wizardry blueprint, weigh his options, attempt to count how many steps before returning to Town and safety, whether to continue pushing further into the Dungeon and possibly gain more fabulous items or instead retreat--
--That is, assuming they already finished trying to decide whether they have enough resources to survive failure in the Chest Scenario.
sometimes the winning move is not to play (kill me now for making that reference), but I leave you all with this:
What other RPGs feature such a simple way of making sure that not only will the Player engage with the dungeon, but that BECAUSE they will do so in order to find items which are reserved as Fixed Encounter drops ONLY, and then lastly imprinting upon the RPG Player here that:
you know what? I'm gonna leave that chest unopened... why? because i am completely immersed in this Wizardry game's metaphysical (in the literal sense, not spiritual, calm the fuck down) approach to conditioning player behavior.
Degenerative game play mechanics? Oh, Sawyer... if you only knew that those things don't exist when a game is made with mechanical system design that elegantly exists only so that the other systems can exist and an additional intentional attempt, as limited as it may be, to make sure that every game mechanic is constantly functioning on a psychological and ideological level, clearest of intents made to try to stimulate the player's game playing habitual and also make the player take stock of the game and the world the game is presenting, the choices it is giving, the things it wants you to do and the things it presents to you without arbitration of any sort.
aight, i'm done for tonight. Go play Wizardry Empire 2 you lugs.
I like that at least all of the basic features modern crawlers need like a full bestiary for you to fill out, and a full "item-estiary" for you to fill out (with cold hard XP award as you progressively discover new enemies/items-armors-accessories, etc).
it is the most basic of the basic but considering how unbelievably low-budget this game was made (this was made specfically as an iOS title, and the PSN port (digital only, didn't get a disc release ever) was simply an afterthought probably because it cost them so little.
The art is anime-bad, NOT anime-good, and that aside I always prefer using traditional Heraldic Iconography stylized to represent a character's Class... the only Wizardry game where I actually approve of the usage of character portraits is, obviously, the to-this-day-still-not-equaled portraits from Wiz 8 and all the other love that went into them.
The fights are hard, but in a surprising shift you can level up inside the dungeon. I don't particular care much about this "mechanic", as it was something born from the way the original Wizardry scenarios (1-5) were programmed and the necessity to have the player rest at an inn to level up (warning: this is pure conjecture on my part) i think was derived in large part because of the way Wiz 1-5 save the game state every "tick" (not every step, btw, as some people think; remember that it also is always saving each game world state during every battle which is why there are the stories of having to be lightning-fast ripping out the game diskettes BEFORE the last character actually died)--
--right, so leveling up in-dungeon? i don't care either way because I am informed on why it has traditionally been otherwise, and unlike every other game playing element or mechanic or system(s) in Wizardry games, both past and modern-day/present ones the level-up in-dungeon change has only a marginal effect on dungeon exploration and the psychological play-player layer that is comprised of: attrition, scarcity, disorientation, fear of the unkonwn and the most important one being the pre-Skinner Box lingo desire to always continue exploring the unknown in hopes of gold and loot or perhaps discovery of a handy-dandy shortcut that eases travel back to town... so on and so forth.
The level up change, to reiterate, does not meaningfully carry any reverbations throughout Wizardry systems and psychology, so It's... fine. That said I still prefer Inn-Leveling because it is just one more small attributation of a Wizardry game's elegantly designed systems of which none exist without doing two the most important jobs of any video game bio-map:
1) being a completed and self-serving closed loop of player interactivty and reactivity
2) and additionally each single one designed as a building block for one or two or more of the other game play systems
That shit is very hard to accomplish, and we can easily count in one hand RPGs which have succeeded in such concise and elegant implementation of such seamless mechanical loops.
So yeah, even though I just wrote almost 3 paragraphis saying that leveling up in-dungeon "ain't nuthin", i just immediately went and wrote around 3 more making sure to attempt to convey that, (in comparison to other designs) this change may indeed not actually change the overall experience in a manner which the majority of players can discern:
- it is still indisputable that it is the subtraction of a small ingredient in the winning Wizardry blueprint which was there for a reason, yes the main one being the programming situation (and I must point out this was not a "blunder" on Wiz creator's part: the continuous, ALWAYS ACTIVE saving of the game world state was very much one of the very first items in whatever they used as the equivalent of a modern day "vision doc")--
--but besides that it just smacks of changing something that people who simply do not understand (or, to be more neutral here, just don't enjoy) Wizardry game play; a change meant to make the game "esaier" (it DOES, but that's not the battle I'd want to fight, there are better ones), but it smacks of a change done because...
"OH HAI GUISE, LETS CHANGE THAT COS ITS OLD AND DUMB I MEAN ALL RPGS LEVEL U UP AFTER BATTLE, ETC, I AM DUMB IMAGINARY PERSON, I HATE MYSELF FOR NOT GRASPING THE DIVINE INTERACTIONS THAT WERE REQUIRED TO HAPPEN FOR WIZARDRY TO HAVE BEEN DESIGNED, ALSO I DO NOT KNOW THAT MOST RPGS FEATURE:
- inferior loot systems to the 30+ year old Wiz 1
- inferior handling of the RPG/video game mainstay of "treasure chests"
- I ALSO DO NOT KNOW that Wizardry's usage of fixed encounters is one of the simplest and most elegant (elegant counter up to 3) adherence to truly "balanced" encounter design.
Anyway i'm tired of typing so:
TL;DR Wiz: LoLS is aight. I give it a solid 3 "Meh..." / 5 "Meh..." in my rating scale. Been there done that, and here's my final claim to rapture:
If you're even THINKING of t4rying out W: LoLS... then go right ahead lol i mean i would be deluded to think anything more about what one person wants to play or not play...
THAT BEING SAID, it would behoove anyone who's itching for Wiz action to arrogantly walk right past W: LoLS and immediately download the fully-translated Windows PC ISO of
- Wizardry Empire 2: Legacy of the Princess, translated by fellow codexers Helly and MrRichard999
ALTERNATIVELY, if you actually want to play the current "real Wizardry" series, then that is called ELMINAGE. Made by the same studio/devs who worked on Wiz Empire 1-3--
--Wiz Emp 1 and 2 (2 especially) being the best designed modern Wizardry scenarios, as they feature the best things from Wiz 6-8 like the new races, the new spells, and the new classes and the weaponry sets/styles, but combine it with the inarguably best-designed Wiz dungeons seen since Wiz 5 with plenty of new additions and some truly, truly ingenious dungeon design that never strays into Wiz 4 territory instead ALWAYS firmly stays in Wiz 5 territory in terms of accessibality, i.e. the Wiz Empire 2 dungeon levels are so GOOD precisely because they masterfully straddle the line between "hard and engaging" and the other side being "this is frustrating and it doesn't feel earned by the game but instead it smacks of designers breaking the authorial contract".
It's everything you loved about Wiz 1-5 (the dungeons, the items, the PERFECT and to-this-day yet to be surpassed Loot System, the simple but so, so elegant (ding) approach to encounter design with the Fixed Encounters and the fact that ONLY Fix. Enc's drop Treasure Chests; the incredibly engaging proto-Skinner Box experiment in small-scale that is every single Chest drop as every single time it brings up more aspects of the underlying psychological ideology of design behind Wizardry:
- The imminent possibility of a party wipe which never, ever fully goes away
- This makes the player weigh his options, some may call them "few" in number, but each and every single one of those options is designed from beginning and its symbiotic end to always carry legitimately important considerations and extrapolation; one might even want to venture into conjecturing that the Treasure Chest scenario in Wizardry (which is not present in 6-8) carries some simple (but obvious) characteristics that seek to stimulate the player into accepting the game world's psychology and raison d'etre:
- Yeah, you're here to get loot, but each treasure chest carries more consequences depedant upon your choices than any other Wizardry game playing mechanic, bar none.
- And if you're a REAL smarty-pants, you probably also noticed that the Treasure Chest Scenario functions as a completely new, additional and seperate Conflict Resolution System that is irrevocably tied to the game Battle System and dungeon and Encounter design philosophies... but serves as an opportunity for the game to show the player not just a completely new, completely seperate conflict resolution AFTER the player has finished playing through the game's REPRESENTATIVE system of conflict, but furthermore: an encouragement for the Player to now think about eeeeeevery other facet of the Wizardry blueprint, weigh his options, attempt to count how many steps before returning to Town and safety, whether to continue pushing further into the Dungeon and possibly gain more fabulous items or instead retreat--
--That is, assuming they already finished trying to decide whether they have enough resources to survive failure in the Chest Scenario.
sometimes the winning move is not to play (kill me now for making that reference), but I leave you all with this:
What other RPGs feature such a simple way of making sure that not only will the Player engage with the dungeon, but that BECAUSE they will do so in order to find items which are reserved as Fixed Encounter drops ONLY, and then lastly imprinting upon the RPG Player here that:
you know what? I'm gonna leave that chest unopened... why? because i am completely immersed in this Wizardry game's metaphysical (in the literal sense, not spiritual, calm the fuck down) approach to conditioning player behavior.
Degenerative game play mechanics? Oh, Sawyer... if you only knew that those things don't exist when a game is made with mechanical system design that elegantly exists only so that the other systems can exist and an additional intentional attempt, as limited as it may be, to make sure that every game mechanic is constantly functioning on a psychological and ideological level, clearest of intents made to try to stimulate the player's game playing habitual and also make the player take stock of the game and the world the game is presenting, the choices it is giving, the things it wants you to do and the things it presents to you without arbitration of any sort.
aight, i'm done for tonight. Go play Wizardry Empire 2 you lugs.
Oh! I forgot to add:
- Wiz Emp 2 also carried over Bradley's push for actual NPCs. It might shock you to know (!!!) that Wiz Emp 1 and 2 have more NPCs with full dialog and the Talk/Steal/Charm/etc options from Wiz 5 than Wiz 5, OR 6 do themselves! Obv. Wiz 7 has waaaaaaaaaaaaay more NPCs, but my point is this:
Wiz Emp 2 (and Gaiden to a lesser extent), aside from taking all the best parts of Wizardry and then adding in the best Bradley-additions, they went ahead:
- Populated each game's (Emp 1/2) town with an NPC behind each shop/service/etc who has endless amounts of dialog which is always being "updated" as you progress through each game.
- And the meat of it: each Emp 1, Emp 2 and Wiz Gaiden (except Gaiden 6) dungeon has on average 2-3 NPCs inside each dungeon floor, all tied to the game's overarching plot (because, you know, they have one) and each one fully fleshed out and characterized.
- Sometimes they ask for items, sometimes they challenge you to fisticuffs, sometimes they have an item for sale, and sometimes they simply have information on the game's plot, the game's characters, or simply information about what lies ahead.
The Text Script (Dungeon NPC dialogs + Town NPC dialogs + story/plot vignettes and info-dumps) for Empire 2 is 2.3x times the size of the text script for Wizardry 5, and about equal to Wiz 6. Oh, also that reminds me, Empire 1/2/Gaiden 4 also utilize Wiz 6's (very, very nice addition) of long descriptive prose to both set atmosphere in a place/scenario and also to inform.
Thankfully they're much better writers than Bradley so there is no purple prose there, just interesting werdz. I'll wait til maybe tomorrow or a few days before writing about the current Wizardry games being made: Elminage: Original and Elminage: Gothic. They added so much new stuff to the Wiz blueprint and in such intelligent ways that I think i'm gonna need a new keyboard for that one.
- Wiz Emp 2 also carried over Bradley's push for actual NPCs. It might shock you to know (!!!) that Wiz Emp 1 and 2 have more NPCs with full dialog and the Talk/Steal/Charm/etc options from Wiz 5 than Wiz 5, OR 6 do themselves! Obv. Wiz 7 has waaaaaaaaaaaaay more NPCs, but my point is this:
Wiz Emp 2 (and Gaiden to a lesser extent), aside from taking all the best parts of Wizardry and then adding in the best Bradley-additions, they went ahead:
- Populated each game's (Emp 1/2) town with an NPC behind each shop/service/etc who has endless amounts of dialog which is always being "updated" as you progress through each game.
- And the meat of it: each Emp 1, Emp 2 and Wiz Gaiden (except Gaiden 6) dungeon has on average 2-3 NPCs inside each dungeon floor, all tied to the game's overarching plot (because, you know, they have one) and each one fully fleshed out and characterized.
- Sometimes they ask for items, sometimes they challenge you to fisticuffs, sometimes they have an item for sale, and sometimes they simply have information on the game's plot, the game's characters, or simply information about what lies ahead.
The Text Script (Dungeon NPC dialogs + Town NPC dialogs + story/plot vignettes and info-dumps) for Empire 2 is 2.3x times the size of the text script for Wizardry 5, and about equal to Wiz 6. Oh, also that reminds me, Empire 1/2/Gaiden 4 also utilize Wiz 6's (very, very nice addition) of long descriptive prose to both set atmosphere in a place/scenario and also to inform.
Thankfully they're much better writers than Bradley so there is no purple prose there, just interesting werdz. I'll wait til maybe tomorrow or a few days before writing about the current Wizardry games being made: Elminage: Original and Elminage: Gothic. They added so much new stuff to the Wiz blueprint and in such intelligent ways that I think i'm gonna need a new keyboard for that one.
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you know whats the best part of going with monkor and 4 ninja?
you NEVER have to worry about encumbrance
you NEVER have to worry about encumbrance
Darth Roxor
Also you can experience Wiz 8's version of the Baldur's Gate 'ranger bash'. Have the 2 front-liners (in my personal case it was 2x SAMMIES) use Bows and the 4x Ninjas behind them Auto-Penetrate the fuck out the enemys from range, as they come to you-- and you'lll of course be at a choke-point/bottle-neck or simply waiting for those enemies with a wall behind you; and when they get close, instantly swap the 2x SAMMIES' bows for melee-weaponry, especially make sure to give 1 of them the Berserker/Fury Sword (and obv. having maximized the Stat/Skill which raises Lightning Strike chance) watch in awe as your Sammie does 7 Lightning Strikes in 1 attack while the Ninja crew behind them floods the feedback text with beheadings and penetrations, heh.
Thinking about this party I see now that your choice of 1 Sam, 1 MONK is much superior. MUCH.
I was thinking you could swap 1 of the ninjas for a RANGER since Rangers with late-game weaponry and maximized stat/skill which raises that thing they do where they deal tons of dmg from 1 bow atk, i think it was Eagle Eye? I think it might've even been outright killing the enemy, but been a while.
Thinking of replaying Wiz 8 with:
1 front-line Sam, 1 front-line Monk
2 Ninjas auto-penning, probably place them off to the "sides"
1 Gadgeteer OR a Bard
1 Ranger Eagle Eyeing shit.
I dare say that might just be the best fucking possible combination of chars/classes, as their game plan will be to pelt the enemy to death before reaching you, and if they do reach you then you have reliable DMG output from the sam/monk and the Ranger in the back eagle-eying, and the ninjas obv. doing their thing, with the gadgeteer (or bard) putting the debuffs on them.
later on the Gadgeteer can also join in on the missile fest as they get some great weapons. for bonus points i'll pick the races blindfolded for each char, heh. Spice it up.
I think Wiz 8 has got to be the only RPG to ever do 3D-spatial combat right, and beyond just that: they did it excellently.
I had so much fun playing with terrain, abusing movement, and playing with my formations: truly I think that the 'blob' in 'blobbers', in the literal sense, has never been realized as GREATLY as in WIZARDRY 8.
Also you can experience Wiz 8's version of the Baldur's Gate 'ranger bash'. Have the 2 front-liners (in my personal case it was 2x SAMMIES) use Bows and the 4x Ninjas behind them Auto-Penetrate the fuck out the enemys from range, as they come to you-- and you'lll of course be at a choke-point/bottle-neck or simply waiting for those enemies with a wall behind you; and when they get close, instantly swap the 2x SAMMIES' bows for melee-weaponry, especially make sure to give 1 of them the Berserker/Fury Sword (and obv. having maximized the Stat/Skill which raises Lightning Strike chance) watch in awe as your Sammie does 7 Lightning Strikes in 1 attack while the Ninja crew behind them floods the feedback text with beheadings and penetrations, heh.
Thinking about this party I see now that your choice of 1 Sam, 1 MONK is much superior. MUCH.
I was thinking you could swap 1 of the ninjas for a RANGER since Rangers with late-game weaponry and maximized stat/skill which raises that thing they do where they deal tons of dmg from 1 bow atk, i think it was Eagle Eye? I think it might've even been outright killing the enemy, but been a while.
Thinking of replaying Wiz 8 with:
1 front-line Sam, 1 front-line Monk
2 Ninjas auto-penning, probably place them off to the "sides"
1 Gadgeteer OR a Bard
1 Ranger Eagle Eyeing shit.
I dare say that might just be the best fucking possible combination of chars/classes, as their game plan will be to pelt the enemy to death before reaching you, and if they do reach you then you have reliable DMG output from the sam/monk and the Ranger in the back eagle-eying, and the ninjas obv. doing their thing, with the gadgeteer (or bard) putting the debuffs on them.
later on the Gadgeteer can also join in on the missile fest as they get some great weapons. for bonus points i'll pick the races blindfolded for each char, heh. Spice it up.
I think Wiz 8 has got to be the only RPG to ever do 3D-spatial combat right, and beyond just that: they did it excellently.
I had so much fun playing with terrain, abusing movement, and playing with my formations: truly I think that the 'blob' in 'blobbers', in the literal sense, has never been realized as GREATLY as in WIZARDRY 8.
i agree, but i must argue that Wiz 8 truly, TRULY did its weird-ass pseudo-phase-based kind-of-turn-based is-that-real-time-walking-? shtick extremely well.
Not saying it's better (or worse) than anything else (ahem), but it goddamn was enjoyable as hell. unfortunately they forgot that blobbers are all about speed, speed speed.
little to no animtions pls, and if so don't forget toggle to turn them off
no prob with having story but remember we're here for dungeons and adventure, not walking across a road (deadliest road evah)
etc, etc. The "Retro Dungeons" in Wiz 8 were also very bad, and an insult to dungeons in general. It's most egregious because the same year Wiz 8 came out that was the same year Wizardry Empire 1: The Ancient Princess came out, AND (AND!) also the same year Wizardry: Chronicles of the Holy Land (Windows PC exclusive, translated by Helly and MrRichard999 as well).
In any case, Wiz 8 did its own thing and is FAR superior to Wiz 6 and Wiz 7, and frankly far superior to the more mediocre japanese Wizardry games as well. I really appreciate Wiz 8, and more so NOW that I actually know about Wizardry and dungeon crawlers.
The very first time I played It I had zero knowledge of this sub-genre of RPGs and I had no idea why anything in Wiz 8 was happening, and I don't mean "story wise" (which, we must all admit, is unbelievably terrible story); i didn't understand why i kept getting enemy encounters inside a Town (lewl), and I found it strange that the first huge chunk of the game (Monastery + Arnika Road, barring side-trips) was almost completely devoid of any NPCs to talk to and it was just me and my party killing our way through these swaths of terrain until finally reaching a village, which was the first thing I noticed as "RPG-like"... and then I got atk'd and was like, wtf.
I remember thoughts such as "all i'm doing is clearing this place and stuff, no one to talk to, no story except intro cutscene, is this an RPG?".
Hahaha .... hah.... hu... he... *commits sudoku
But I kept coming back to it and I fucking loved it. Still do. It was my first Wiz game and although it is not in truth a real Wizardry game, it is a fantastic RPG.
Not saying it's better (or worse) than anything else (ahem), but it goddamn was enjoyable as hell. unfortunately they forgot that blobbers are all about speed, speed speed.
little to no animtions pls, and if so don't forget toggle to turn them off
no prob with having story but remember we're here for dungeons and adventure, not walking across a road (deadliest road evah)
etc, etc. The "Retro Dungeons" in Wiz 8 were also very bad, and an insult to dungeons in general. It's most egregious because the same year Wiz 8 came out that was the same year Wizardry Empire 1: The Ancient Princess came out, AND (AND!) also the same year Wizardry: Chronicles of the Holy Land (Windows PC exclusive, translated by Helly and MrRichard999 as well).
In any case, Wiz 8 did its own thing and is FAR superior to Wiz 6 and Wiz 7, and frankly far superior to the more mediocre japanese Wizardry games as well. I really appreciate Wiz 8, and more so NOW that I actually know about Wizardry and dungeon crawlers.
The very first time I played It I had zero knowledge of this sub-genre of RPGs and I had no idea why anything in Wiz 8 was happening, and I don't mean "story wise" (which, we must all admit, is unbelievably terrible story); i didn't understand why i kept getting enemy encounters inside a Town (lewl), and I found it strange that the first huge chunk of the game (Monastery + Arnika Road, barring side-trips) was almost completely devoid of any NPCs to talk to and it was just me and my party killing our way through these swaths of terrain until finally reaching a village, which was the first thing I noticed as "RPG-like"... and then I got atk'd and was like, wtf.
I remember thoughts such as "all i'm doing is clearing this place and stuff, no one to talk to, no story except intro cutscene, is this an RPG?".
Hahaha .... hah.... hu... he... *commits sudoku
But I kept coming back to it and I fucking loved it. Still do. It was my first Wiz game and although it is not in truth a real Wizardry game, it is a fantastic RPG.
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