Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[Covenant]

So a while back I finished my Wizardry 7 playthrough and wrote the following, but at the time it seemed surprisingly harsh so I saved it and put to one side, thinking that perhaps I was having a bit of a kneejerk reaction to a punishing endgame. Months later though I find I can't really disagree with anything I wrote, so I'm posting it here for anyone who may be interested.

(Spoilers for a few Wizardry 7 puzzles)

So I finished my CotDS run-through with my imported party from Bane. My initial goal had been an Ironman attempt without any spoilers, but D'rang T'rang put paid to that as mentioned in my previous post. Managed not to die again for most of the rest of the game though. When I finally did, I'd been everywhere except the final dungeon and had no ideas on where to find the Star map to do the Trial of the Crusaders (I still think having a map inside the Crypt itself doesn't really fit, but meh). So I was exploring the Greater Wilderness on the off-chance of there being some kind of clue there, but I ended up dying to something like four groups of eight Conquiladas. Those things are absolutely lethal. After that point I just went 'fuck it' and reloaded any time anyone died, like a common garden scrub player.

Anyway, I'm glad I played it through, it was fun... but at the same time, I couldn't help but feel a little disappointed. It had always loomed as something of an obelisk in my mind ever since I tried Wizardry Gold as a kid and found myself happily, magically, utterly overwhelmed. But actually playing it through again as an adult, the flaws stuck out a lot more. Particularly the endless battles with the same old enemies (they couldn't have had a few more giants and thraxes, and a few less Luna Mothras, Fire Crows and Rattkin Hunters?). Toning down the encounter rate would certainly have helped, but even then, for all of the perhaps thousand+ battles I fought it was rare to have one that was any more than time-consuming filler. A handful spring to mind; the Tobogan fight(s), Brombadeng, a Godzylli I bumped into in the Greater Wilds shortly before the Conquiladas, and that time when I accidentally went the wrong way after talking to H'Jenn-Ra and had half the T'Rang base attack me at once. They were fun, tense battles. But for every one of those there were a hundred '6 Gorn Lancers' and '1 Boar Weevil and 2 Stag Weevils' encounters.

A shame, because there's so much to the game in terms of systems and content. The excitement of upgrading to Fireballs and Iceballs, or of your Ninja finally starting to dish out critical kills with impunity - the whole progression/combat system is probably one of the best that's out there, but in some ways it sadly doesn't live up to its own potential. Perhaps that's an unfair perspective to have nearly 30 years in retrospect, but to your typical prospective player the fact that it 'did it first' is largely irrelevant. 'Pamela' will always be significant in its role as a forebear of the modern novel, but I really wouldn't advise anyone to actually read the bloody thing.

What it does best is undoubtedly its sense of atmosphere and the organic way (most of) the puzzles fit into the world. The maps are a great device, if somewhat hindered by the fact that they're never actually discussed either in the introduction, the game itself, or the manual from what I recall. Instead they seem to exist as some sort of supposedly self-evident goal that you (and half the NPCs in the game) are assumed to be seeking out for... reasons. It's rare I find myself wishing for more exposition in a game, but I can't help thinking that a bit of waffle from Prof. Wunderrat or someone similar making reference to the maps would have been a welcome addition. Who knows, perhaps it's there and I missed it. I certainly missed any clue regarding the proper use of the Legend map - a bit of Googling shows a few vague mentions that 'somewhere' the Gaelin legend is discussed and that's supposed to be the hint, but on my playthrough the only place the word 'Gaelin' popped up was on the stone in question. Keeping in mind how unintuitive the Rebecca/Diamond Ring thing from the previous game was I'm inclined toward the assumption that I didn't miss any hint at all, and it was just D.W. Bradley being Bradley.

Those quibbles aside though, I really liked the maps. They generally provided a good push in the right direction for the puzzles they referred to, while still being suitably cryptic. Most of the puzzles hit a good balance, with a small amount of 'Wait, I was supposed to keep that!?' popping up from things like the Munk Innards, Bone Combs, etc. Far better than VI and the inventory full of Rubber Bands and Miner's Chisels you couldn't get rid of though. And say what you will for Bradley's writing, in Wizardry it fits. It's basically a goofy space opera version of Wacky Races, with the prize being god-like power (via an entirely different artefact than the one from the previous game that also granted god-like power, naturally). That he manages to weave back and forth between po-faced questions -'What is destiny? Does free will exist?' - and all the silly stuff like full-on 'You'ze boize' style ratty gangsters (or Brother Tshober) is impressive in a way. I mean, it's daft, certainly, but I didn't hate it. If anything I think it fits quite well - as players we're playing at being serious heroes, but at the same time every few minutes we're prone to take a step backward to mock the ridiculousness of the whole thing. Crusaders manages this without falling into the cringe-inducing, meta-referencing, fourth-wall-breaking trap that so many others do (D:OS springs to mind).

The whole thing takes a bit of a sour turn toward the very end though. The Isle of Crypts is just... annoying. Everything about it. Unavoidable traps, tedious encounters, and then to cap it off a bloody teleporter maze. Not to mention, the puzzles take a bit of a downward turn around that point as well. Having the titular Crypts have false walls - which, as far as I recall, don't exist anywhere else in the game - was a cheap trick, as was the need for backtracking that the area necessitated, both within and without. Not to mention after the climactic battle having to then (depending on your choices/answer) backtrack yet again to the Helazoid city. I never thought I'd find myself wishing for Fast Travel, but that was before I got attacked by goddamn red piranhas for the tenth time while I was just trying to sail back so I could get my hard-earned ending scene.

I think perhaps the game could have benefited by being made somewhat more concise. Or at least had better pacing. Areas and monsters like the Wilds/Godzylli were criminally underused, whereas places like The Tower of Dane or the Fun House were a needless slog. Perhaps the order in which I visited areas is partly to blame, but by the time I got cool toys like the Cobaltine Power Glove or any of the things from Dragon Mountain I only had the Isle of Crypts left to do (and the combat took a nosedive at that point, particularly on the last floor). The best parts were probably exploring places like the Giant's Cave or the aforementioned Dragon Mountains - the boss fights and mini-boss fights in these areas were a lot more engaging than the regular trash encounters in most of the rest of the game, and the gear upgrades in the Dragon Mountains also added a bit more excitement. And though it wasn't too bad if you knew what you were doing (I avoided spoilers, but half-remembered some puzzle solutions from 20 years ago and knew at least enough not to ditch anything that might be a quest item), back-tracking was a bit much in places, and I can only imagine it was much worse if you were struggling with certain puzzles. At the very least, going back to Barlone was a needless annoyance - they really missed a trick by not having some sort of hidden/illicit Humpawhamma (or whatever you call the teleporter) pad become unlocked there.

Overall it was a lot of fun and I enjoyed it a great deal, particularly some of the more set-piece fights. But I guess I'd just hyped it up a little too much in my mind. Perhaps I'm just a little disappointed to note my childhood hero's feet of clay.

I'd certainly recommend it to anyone into the genre, and overall it probably is the best, yet at the same time I imagine it'll be quite a while before I'm in the mood to import my party into the sequel and finish off the trilogy.

 

[Dorateen]

Play Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar next.

 

[Covenant]

Play Grimoire: Heralds of the Winged Exemplar next.

The minute it's on GOG, I intend to.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

You know, I found the Isle of Crypts pleasantly challenging, including the teleport maze. Probably because all the enemies give buckets of XP. I think I doubled my levels there.

Agree with everything else though.

 

[Dorateen]

Overall it was a lot of fun and I enjoyed it a great deal, particularly some of the more set-piece fights.

I'd certainly recommend it to anyone into the genre, and overall it probably is the best

I endorse this evaluation of Crusaders of the Dark Savant.

 

[Darth Roxor]

You're saying that a new player lingering in the Temple for a while and getting level 5 willl have an easy and intuitive time getting to Arnika?

Yes?

The road to Arnika is the most overrated level in existence. I never had any problem with it even as a new player - of all the possible encounters you can get there, the only really brutal ones for a new party are the killer plants. Apart from that you have various higardi, who are easy and can get you some good early loot, ants, who are pathetic, seekers, who are hardly a problem, and piercer modai, which can be rough in big mobs but they can be easily managed simply by standing in a corner and not letting more than 2 attack you at once. Iirc there might also be siges sometimes, but their 20something hp also makes them easy.

 

[Edmund Spenser]

The reason I talk of the difficulty for the Road is that at this point the party isn't even properly equipped and the last thing you need is a significant (comparatively) difficulty increase getting in between you and actually buying appropriate gear.

I still maintain that the level scaling of Wiz8 works to its detriment and one needs to plan around it, but your mileage may vary.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Yeah, skill grinding is NOT necessary for Wiz8. Sure it helps if you want to make an all-school Bishop, or grind up hybrids casting abilities, or you're trying to max out a skill before class changing. But none of that will matter for a normal, first time playthrough. Wiz8 is very balanced that if you pick normal classes and play them the in a normal way you will get all the skills and levels you need to comfortably make your way through the game. The only thing you can really mess up is picking the wrong stat boosts at level up, and you'd have to fail at RPGs pretty hard for that to happen.

Level scaling is never an issue. If you're not keeping up with the power curve you've done something very very foolish, like make a party of all mages and trying to melee the whole game with fists.

Really the hardest thing about the game for a new player is understanding how the formation system and weapon ranges work.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Wiz 8 (...) the combat will destroy you, it will suck the life out of your soul like seriously these endless troups of trashmobs with 2 billion mobs in it jesus.

Wizardry VI I think it's the best Wizardry.

 

[Scroo]

In wizardry VI the combat goes over quickly tho, you can just spam press space bar and even combat against 18 (trash)mobs will be over in 30 seconds. In Wiz VIII even with wizfast it feels like you just wanna cut your wrists and jump off the roof after 10-20 hours in. Combat animations didn't do wizardry good. Once you reach the rat city a normal person's sanity level has reached dangerous grounds

 

[Darth Roxor]

Except the major differences are that:

1. In Wiz8 you can speed up or avoid encounters thanks to actually seeing them and through the use of terrain geometry if you know what you're doing. Neither is possible in Wiz6, plus in Wiz6 most encounters just pop-up all along a rail-roaded corridor track ahead of you and are straight-up unavoidable (and impossible to retreat from). Best you can do is savescum to get easier enemy mob comps, but with that you just fuck yourself in the long run because you'll end up underlevelled.

2. Combat encounters are much (and I repeat, MUCH) less numerous in Wiz8 than in 6. How many encounters are you going to run into, say, on Arnika road? 3? 4? With max 8 monsters each maybe. In wiz6 you'd be running into 5x5 shitheads every second step.

3. 3D area effects for spells make them much easier to target multiple shits in your field of view (again, positioning). Meanwhile Wiz6 loves to send those 5 groups with 1 fucker each to waste your time even more. Bonus points if each of these is some aoe-rape spewing whatever.

 

[Scroo]

Yet still combat in Wiz 6 feels more satisfying and less frustrating to me than Wizardry 8. Also it's often not really possible to avoid encounters, on arnika road it's even possible for 2 large mob groups to flank you and attack at the same time which can mean game over for good on that savegame, especially when you just came out of the monastery and are still relatively weak. I had this happen in one run.

Also the encounter frequency in Wiz 6 is higher, but nowhere as drastic as to happen every second step. Bard's tale is every second step and I hated it bc of that. Meanwhile in Arnika itself you get attacked by robots everywhere AND have monks join in to "help" you (by doing 3 damage per hit lol) dragging the encounters on for even longer.

Can't argue against the spells tho, hand placing the aoe effects is really pretty awesome :D

Also don't get me wrong, I don't hate Wiz 8. In fact I would love to absolutely adore it but it just burns me out every single time I tell me "this time you'll do it"

/e: I'd say we continue this in the Wizardry thread tho

 

[Strange Fellow]

I just finished Wizardry VI for the first time recently, after leaving it to ripen for a month or two at the river Styx. Picked it up again and blasted through the rest in a few hours. Overall an excellent game, definitely one of the best 90s RPGs that I've played. mondbluted the fuck out of my characters too, which was a lot of fun. Currently fiddling with VII, which seems to run much more sluggishly for some reason, although it looks way prettier. What's worse is that unlike in VI, the speed at which the game runs is not tied to the CPU cycles in DOSBox, which means that I can't just turn them up to make things go faster. Nor does the "delay" setting in the menu affect anything other than combat messages as far as I can tell. If there's anyone out there who has any tips I'd love to hear them.
Transferred my party of munchkins of course, but I'm torn about whether or not to keep the best items, like the Avenger or the Muramasa blade. On the one hand I earned those toys goddammit! But I've read that they remain the best weapons for a good long while, and the gear progression was one of the things I liked the most about VI. I think I'll likely start without them, though I might import some armor and utility items.

I also thought I'd mention something about 8 which I don't think I've seen around here: The utility from the Wizards & Warriors thread, dgVoodoo, also works wonders for this game. Tried it on a whim one day (ironically after I was unsuccessful in running W&W), and it fixed the persistent problems I had been having with it, like screen tearing as well as a framerate which was impossible to lock, making the game run at over 3000 fps and causing all kinds of problems. The DirectX7 option in the external configuration (this is the steam version I'm talking about btw) was the only thing that worked okay, but it crashed every few minutes. dgVoodoo fixed all that, the game's been running steady ever since and I haven't experienced a single crash. So if anyone is having similar issues I suggest giving it a shot.

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

So if anyone is having similar issues I suggest giving it a shot.

You could also try nGlide, which also helped me when I had problems with the Steam version.

 

[Strange Fellow]

So if anyone is having similar issues I suggest giving it a shot.

You could also try nGlide, which also helped me when I had problems with the Steam version.

I'm sure nGlide was one of the settings that gave me trouble, but I can't remember exactly what problems it caused. Either it was the insane fps issue, or else it only allowed 16-bit rendering, which is not a problem per se, but isn't optimal. DirectX7 + dgVoodoo is perfectly stable and provides the best graphics quality for me. Of course, if nGlide works for you then there's no reason to fiddle with this stuff

 

[aweigh]

best combat in a Wiz game is in Wizardry Empire 2, with 2nd place probably a tie between wiz 6 and wiz gaiden: potb.

i'd put wiz 8 combat at 4th place. animations in general are cancer for turn-based combat.

worst wiz combat for me would be wiz summoner on GBA.

 

[Strange Fellow]

best combat in a Wiz game is in Wizardry Empire 2, with 2nd place probably a tie between wiz 6 and wiz gaiden: potb.

Why 6 and not 7? Encounter design? I have to say, I loved the setpiece battles in 6. Also, what makes Empire 2 better? Never played any Japanese Wizardrys, and I was under the impression that they were based on the wiz 1-3 mold, which are basically simpler versions of 6/7's systems as far as I’m concerned.

Concerning 7: do you, or anyone else here, know if you can drop crucial quest items? You couldn't in 6, which was a pain in the ass, but I'd rather know for sure, so as not to accidentally screw myself over adventure game style. A cursory Google search has yielded nothing.

 

[aweigh]

Strange Fellow

Frankly, on further thought I'd place Wiz 5 combat above 6 simply because of the better spell systems in Wiz 5 (which were dumbed down in 6), but those two are pretty close to each other for me.

As for Wiz Emp 2: better iteration on classes and class interplay, the new alignment and racial systems and how they affect each other and party composition, new races and spell schools that add a lot to the combat and round permutations, better itemization and on-effects of weapons, the new armor system and how it relates to AC and THAC, better designed enemies and better difficulty pacing (combined with the better dungeons) it all adds up to making combat the most enjoyable part of any Wiz game.

it was the peak of Wizardry design, and it's continued in the devs Elminage series. Elminage games are the current best versions of Wizardry combat and dungeon design, made by ex-Wiz devs who did Wiz Empire 1-3 and Wiz Asterisk (feudal remake of Wiz 1).

If you really enjoy Wiz 6-style combat I recommend also checking out The Dark Spire for Nintendo DS, it's made by ex-Wiz devs and it's an iteration and evolution of Wiz 6-style combat, like how you can make a Fast Attack which sacrifices THAC for Turn Order, or if you're in the back-row you can choose to go last in the turn order but fire a Volley of Arrows instead of a single one with lower THAC and Damage, or how you can choose to cast a Spell Quickly sacrificing a chance of spell failure in return for faster turn order, or concentrate on casting a Spell for an alternative effect.

 

[Strange Fellow]

[QUOTE="aweigh, post: 5679142,
Interesting stuff
[/QUOTE]
Looking over the spells in V (which I haven't played), it seems like an expanded version of I's spell list (which I have played, but not finished). I'm not seeing how VI is any worse; the spells are more numerous and varied in VI I'd say, and the new way of handling spellcasting with the points and realms doesn't exactly scream dumbing down to me. Unless you miss the funny names...
Appreciate the suggestions though. The Elminages are on my list, and The Dark Spire sound like fun. Don't own a DS though. For me, the primary appeal of Proving Grounds when I played it was the traversal of the dungeon itself, which, admittedly, VI kind of dropped the ball on a little - there weren't any mapping challenges save for a handful of small dark areas. I still think the character development and the story/setting made up for it, and then some.

Edit: fucked up the quote and now I can't fix it. I have a lot to learn...

 

[aweigh]

Dungeon design is quite bad/mediocre in Wiz 6, with the exception of the beginning area (the Castle). Dumbed down stuff in 6: switch from resource management (Vancian casting) to MP-based casting (Final Fantasy-style), plus additional lessening of strategy in gameplay due to "rest anywhere" system with little-to-no repercussions.

The way the spells function was also changed, and the power levels were a stepbackwards from the Hard Counters-philosophy of traditional Wiz spells. Anyway, I know some people enjoy these changes so I try not to hammer these points too much, to each their own.

In any case, I wholeheartedly (also) recommend that you then play Wiz 5, specifically the 3D remake with orchestral soundtrack available on Playstation 1 (PSX). It's the best of the western Wizardry games, with absolutely top-notch dungeon design. Wiz 5 is really fucking good.

My favorite of the japanese Wiz games are the Wiz Empire games, specifically entry #2 for Windows PC. The TLDR version of why is: basically the jap devs took all of the best parts of Wiz 5, and all of the best parts of Wiz 6 (the new races, the new spells, etc), and combined them with traditional classic Dungeon Floors (not "open world" like 7) and the end result is a beautiful mix of Wiz gameplay.

The Elminage series also fit that description: essentially trad. Wizardry gameplay with parts from Wiz 1-5, and features from Wiz 6-8, with whole new additions like Alchemy (item enchantment) and Summoning (Pokemon-style enemy capturing for summoning purposes), and other cool stuff.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Dungeon design is quite bad/mediocre in Wiz 6, with the exception of the beginning area (the Castle). Dumbed down stuff in 6: switch from resource management (Vancian casting) to MP-based casting (Final Fantasy-style), plus additional lessening of strategy in gameplay due to "rest anywhere" system with little-to-no repercussions.

The way the spells function was also changed, and the power levels were a stepbackwards from the Hard Counters-philosophy of traditional Wiz spells. Anyway, I know some people enjoy these changes so I try not to hammer these points too much, to each their own.

I can't disagree with you about the dungeon design, although i greatly enjoyed the castle area as well as some of the side areas, like the pyramid. Pyramid maps in blobbers are the shit. I actually thought the resource management was really well done in VI, what with the fountains that function as impromtu bases of operations, combined with the slow speed of health and spell regen through resting. It's only really without repercussions if you savescum, as you run the risk of triggering an encounter with most of your party sound asleep which, especially towards the end, will result in several casualties. I don't really disagree with you on this either though, and there is no doubt that Vancian works very well with the restricted resting of early wizes. Disagree on the matter of spell power levels however, which I felt added an interesting aspect of party management as you had to keep spell strength relative to defenses and possible counter-spells in mind when casting. I see where you're coming from though, some people will hate instant kill criticals and I love that shit; I think it's all about what degree of randomness and risk/reward each of us enjoys. Either way, Wizardry 5 is definitely on my list, and it just jumped up a few places

 

[aweigh]

Oh man if you have a boner for pyramid dungeons, one of the best ones ever (probably the best one?) would be in Wiz 4. Generally speaking Wiz 4 dungeons are untouchable in their genius (and in how hard-core they are), but Wiz 4's Pyramid of Entrapment (and Temple of the Dreampainter) are something special.

Another noteworthy Pyramid-themed dungeon is Elminage: Gothic's The Royal Tomb. My favorite dungeon from that one. Dungeon design is the main parameter by which I judge my Wiz-clones, which is really the main reason I love the japanese Wizardry games so much. Wiz 6-8 are fine RPGs in their own right, but for someone jonesing for actual dungeon crawling they are not quite sufficiently satiating, and leave one wishing for the real thing.

EDIT:

Check out some images of the Royal Tomb from Elminage: Gothic:

 

[Strange Fellow]

Oh man if you have a boner for pyramid dungeons, one of the best ones ever (probably the best one?) would be in Wiz 4. Generally speaking Wiz 4 dungeons are untouchable in their genius (and in how hard-core they are), but Wiz 4's Pyramid of Entrapment (and Temple of the Dreampainter) are something special.

There is no way I'm hardkore enough for IV Maybe after I get all these other ones under my belt. I read Crooked Bee's LP of it a long time ago, which made it seem alternately horrifying and fascinating. I actually cleared the first floor way back when, around the same time I played proving grounds, but I would never have finished it then, even if I had tried. Even now, though, the Cosmic Cube beckons in the distance...

Glad to hear Elminage Gothic has a pyramid, that actually bumps it up my list a few notches. Such is my love of pyramids, hehe.

Dungeon design is the main parameter by which I judge my Wiz-clones, which is really the main reason I love the japanese Wizardry games so much. Wiz 6-8 are fine RPGs in their own right, but for someone jonesing for actual dungeon crawling they are not quite sufficiently satiating, and leave one wishing for the real thing.

Edit: just saw your own edit, those are some microscopic images, man Looks good though, is that an automap, or does the game include a mapping utility? Always go graph paper myself, tends to be more efficient I find.

 

[aweigh]

The version of Wiz 4 that I played is the Playstation 1 version, and I also would not want to play the original one, though mostly because the original version has Trebor's ghost hunting you in real-time, whereas in the PSX version he moves when you move.

Also the PSX version (obviously) doesn't feature the crazy ass hidden keystroke input limit. Frankly the PSX remakes of the Wiz 1-5 games are, for me, the definitive versions, retaining all of the difficulty and dungeon design while adding good-for-the-era polygonal graphics and truly beautiful soundtracks. The Wiz 4 PSX OST in particular is really good featuring lots of mid-tempo brass sections put the fear of god into ya.

The Dark Spire game for NDS was actually made by the dev team that did the PSX remakes of Wiz 1-3, btw. The japs really fucking love Wizardry.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Iirc, it was only in the DOS version that Trebors ghost moved in real time, in the Apple II version he moved turnbased. I'm not speaking from experience here obviously, so I could well be wrong. Wireframe graphics don't bother me (I actually think VI would have been just as well off, if not better, wireframe, instead of the ubiquitous bricks), so the primary draw for me from the PSX versions would be the soundtrack. I would imagine the lack of hotkeys would be a drawback though?

The japs really fucking love Wizardry.

So it seems. Personally I wish they (or anyone) had a little love to spare for wiz 8, though. It is a goddamn crime that that way of doing party based combat only got one game! Of course 8 has basically nothing in common with your particular brand of favourites, but there you go
Edit: seems I was wrong, and the ghost moves real time in the Apple version as well. Weird, I could have sworn I've read differently somewhere.