Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[aweigh]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I love Wiz 8, actually more so than Wiz 6 or 7. However the original question was about overall enjoyment of the combat and between 5, 6 and 8 for me it's a toss-up between 5 and 6. (Of the western Wizardry games).

Wiz 8 was actually the first Wiz game I ever played, and I remember absolutely hating it at the time. I had never before played any sort of blobber and was mostly coming from dabbling in isometric games of the time (the BGs, the FOs, etc), and I just coudln't wrap my head around this kind of game.

I remember finding everything weird, like why there were enemies inside towns, why there wasn't anyone around to talk with, why I the party didn't have an actor character for battling, why there was so much combat. I returned to it later and played it to completion and liked it a lot more, after spending a few more years playing many different types of RPGs.

The second time I played Wiz 8 was after I "discovered" the Wiz franchise as a whole, after playing through every single western Wiz game and as many of the jap Wizardry games as I could find in English; with this newfound love for the games I went back a second time to Wiz 8 and I've come to really appreciate how radically it changed things. I've never seen such amazing usage of 3D space and geography, and of party formations, and how they influence a combat encounter. It is this that makes it so good, and puts it head and shoulders above Wiz 6 and 7.

I would love another Wiz 8-type game, just not under the Wizardry name.

 

[Strange Fellow]

I would love another Wiz 8-type game, just not under the Wizardry name.

It's the kickstarter I've been holding out for, but nobody seems to care about wiz 8 these days. Bards Tale 4 looks... weird. Instead we're getting all kinds of IE-clones. Makes me think that in a few years we will be seeing Fallout 3 spiritual successor kickstarters, banking on the nostalgia. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Twizman]

I really like the range of strong spells that the Mage class receives in Wizardry V. Right from the start you get Katino (AoE Sleep) and Ponti (buffs speed and attacks per round on target of choice). Socordi is a fun sometimes busted summoning spell. Lots of good AoE damage spells. Vaskyre is very fun. Bacortu creates a dampening field against AoE and Breath attacks.

As for the Priest selection, I didn't quite enjoy it as much. Bamatu lowers the party AC and when stacked is pretty good. Madi fully heals a target, strong but comes fairly late. The AoE damage stuff is much worse than Mage's selection as expected. Sometimes I hit the spell that leaves the enemy on 1 HP (I think Labadi), that one is good when it works. Feels like the class is missing a strong utility spell, like Surround for example in the Dragon Warrior games was great on the Pilgrim.

 

[Dorateen]

On the subject of pyramid dungeon designs, I agree the Royal Tomb from Elminage Gothic is absolutely outstanding. Other memorable pyramid locations for me include:

Sorcerer's Isle from Pool of Radiance
The Dragon Pharaoh's pyramid from World of Xeen
The Pyramid of Cet from D.W. Bradley's Wizards and Warriors
Nerukruel Pyramid from Grimoire

 

[theSavant]

I would love another Wiz 8-type game, just not under the Wizardry name.

It's the kickstarter I've been holding out for, but nobody seems to care about wiz 8 these days. Bards Tale 4 looks... weird. Instead we're getting all kinds of IE-clones.

> "Bards Tale 4 looks... weird" ---couldn't have said it better

The only other kickstarter which featured a "Wizardry 8"-like game was that "Oldschool RPG" by Brenda Romero & Co. which didn't succeed. It was weird too... but when they threw together a world map, it almost looked like the map of Wizardry 8 :D Yet the outcome would have been interesting...

 

[Strange Fellow]

I would love another Wiz 8-type game, just not under the Wizardry name.

It's the kickstarter I've been holding out for, but nobody seems to care about wiz 8 these days. Bards Tale 4 looks... weird. Instead we're getting all kinds of IE-clones.

> "Bards Tale 4 looks... weird" ---couldn't have said it better

The only other kickstarter which featured a "Wizardry 8"-like game was that "Oldschool RPG" by Brenda Romero & Co. which didn't succeed. It was weird too... but when they threw together a world map, it almost looked like the map of Wizardry 8 :D Yet the outcome would have been interesting...

Wow, I had never even heard of that one! One million for showing basically nothing but their names sounds like the project was doomed from the start, but if it were announced today I'd probably back it anyway. I actually think Bard's Tale could turn out fun, but it does look somewhat cheap, and the priorities of the leads don't seem to align with what I'm looking for in a blobber. It definitely won't have cool and challenging level design, i think that much is obvious already, and the few glimpses we've seen of the character system are disheartening.

Other memorable pyramid locations for me include:
Sorcerer's Isle from Pool of Radiance

Great area, one of the best in a game that was chock full of them. I don't recall that there was anything about its level design that reflected the fact that it was the interior of a pyramid (or ziggurat), however.

Fun fact: I was just checking the dev credits for wizardry 8 on Wikipedia, and the very first reference lists a certain Infinitron. Prestigious (and useful) gaming magazine indeed!

 

[Dorateen]

Other memorable pyramid locations for me include:
Sorcerer's Isle from Pool of Radiance

Great area, one of the best in a game that was chock full of them. I don't recall that there was anything about its level design that reflected the fact that it was the interior of a pyramid (or ziggurat), however.

As a matter of fact, the way the area is laid out, the west half and east half (the mazes) on either side of the secret entrance, represent the base of the pyramid. Level 2 is the middle, interior. And level 3 is the smallest area map, designated as the apex of the pyramid. It is not immediately apparent from the in game perspective. But the design was intended to reflect a triangular structure.

 

[Strange Fellow]

As a matter of fact, the way the area is laid out, the west half and east half (the mazes) on either side of the secret entrance, represent the base of the pyramid. Level 2 is the middle, interior. And level 3 is the smallest area map, designated as the apex of the pyramid. It is not immediately apparent from the in game perspective. But the design was intended to reflect a triangular structure.

Full disclosure: I kind of stumbled upon the apex by chance after spending relatively little time on level 2, and not mapping it at all. As much as I enjoyed the area I wasn't really tempted to go back down after that; those encounters really had their way with me. Por is absolutely a game I'll be replaying, though, and I'll be sure to explore (and map) it in its entirety when I do.

 

[Leitz]

Frankly the PSX remakes of the Wiz 1-5 games are, for me, the definitive versions

Just wondering: the PSX versions have automap? If so, how can they be the definitve versions?

 

[aweigh]

Because the auto-map is optional? You can also switch off the graphics and play in wireframe mode. Every single thing is toggable.

Wiz 1 in wire-frame mode on PSX:


Wiz 4 in default mode on PSX:

 

[Strange Fellow]

I've reached New City in VII now, in between all the football, and I have to say that the control scheme and UI are hilariously unintuitive. Sure, VI's lack of hotkeys and horrid inventory system were annoyances, but this one seems just completely random. It really annoys me how the designers seem to have gone for form over functionality.

A good example is the level up screen. In VI it was perfectly straightforward: Enter switches between the skill categories, up/down arrows between skills within a category, and left/right arrows increases/decreases points allocated. Simple and intuitive, right?
Cue --D. W. Bradley has gone insane!-- Left/right arrows now switches between categories, space (for some reason) moves down the list of skills, enter moves the selection thingy to the top of the list, and finally, as I found out after testing literally every other key on my keyboard, the +/- keys on the numpad increases and decreases points allotted. Why, Bradley, just why? Even wizardry 1 (1980) had a more intuitive control scheme. The mouse input is a whole other can of worms, but I'm not using it, partly because it disables most of the keyboard functions (again, for no discernible reason).
I know this is some high level picking of nits, but it really bugs me how elementary these mistakes are, and in a blobber things need to be quick to resolve. At any rate the presence of H)otkeys this time around will make things more efficient once I get the hang of them.

 

[Leitz]

Because the auto-map is optional? You can also switch off the graphics and play in wireframe mode. Every single thing is toggable.

Wiz 1 in wire-frame mode on PSX:


Wiz 4 in default mode on PSX:

OK that's great. Thanks.

 

[Spiky]

I would love another Wiz 8-type game, just not under the Wizardry name.

It's the kickstarter I've been holding out for, but nobody seems to care about wiz 8 these days. Bards Tale 4 looks... weird. Instead we're getting all kinds of IE-clones.

> "Bards Tale 4 looks... weird" ---couldn't have said it better

The only other kickstarter which featured a "Wizardry 8"-like game was that "Oldschool RPG" by Brenda Romero & Co. which didn't succeed. It was weird too... but when they threw together a world map, it almost looked like the map of Wizardry 8 :D Yet the outcome would have been interesting...

I had a chance to chat with Brenda in February 2016. Almost 4 years after mentioned Kickstarter fail. I asked her mainly about Wizardry 9 (she told me that they never started working on it and shut down right after finishing W8 - I read some articles back in 2001 that mentioned W9 was actually in production when they shut down, so I was curious about her version of the story), but she also said that she is working on some new RPG. I really hope that one day they put together something like W8.

 

[aweigh]

Strange Fellow

I've never understood the point of mouse usage in a turn-based crawler either. I suppose if you want to add some sort of pixel-hunting element you would need one, but then I also don't like pixel-hunting either.

 

[theSavant]

but she also said that she is working on some new RPG. I really hope that one day they put together something like W8.

Interesting, that makes me curious too. I hope we hear something about it anytime soon.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

Okay I need help with Wiz 7. I did Conan, a fighter with endurance, and he died horribly in the first fight against bugs. Don't know how to rez him (I healed him with my priest, his health got up, but nothing else). I have a character, Fighter, with sword equipped who cannot "Fight". The option is just not there.

Also everyone just keep missing even with sleep on enemies. They don't miss tho.

What's the deal with this game ? What am I doing wrong ?

 

[Strange Fellow]

Okay I need help with Wiz 7. I did Conan, a fighter with endurance, and he died horribly in the first fight against bugs. Don't know how to rez him (I healed him with my priest, his health got up, but nothing else). I have a character, Fighter, with sword equipped who cannot "Fight". The option is just not there.

To resurrect a dead character, you need either the spell, which is high level, a resurrect scroll/potion, or some other item with the resurrection ability. There could be some NPCs and fountains that also resurrect characters, but I haven't found any yet, and there weren't any in VI that I was aware of. You're better off just reloading if you're just starting out.

Edit: Wait, your character is dead, but regained health? That's never happened to me, though I've never tried to heal a dead character before. Are you sure he's not just paralyzed? Huh, apparently dead characters can regain health while remaining dead. What gives?

Weapons have different ranges in Wiz 7. If your fighter is positioned in the back row (PC #4, #5 and #6), he will only be able to attack with weapons with Extended range, such as spears. A fighter should really be in the front, though. Don't ask me how to rearrange the party order, because I don't know (damn obtuse interface ). Alternatively, if your character has Ninjutsu he could spend a turn hiding, after which he can hit with normal ranged weaponry even from the back row. Your fighter won't have it, but it's useful if you've got more melee characters with short-range weapons than you know what to do with.

Also everyone just keep missing even with sleep on enemies. They don't miss tho.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you miss a lot, upping the weapon skills is neccesary. Remember to keep your stamina high on all melee characters. There are also some spells that help with accuracy, such as Enchanted Blade and Bless (I think). If the issue is that they are hitting but not penetrating, the same strategy applies, really. There's not much you can do. In the early stages you will miss a lot no matter what.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

Okay I need help with Wiz 7. I did Conan, a fighter with endurance, and he died horribly in the first fight against bugs. Don't know how to rez him (I healed him with my priest, his health got up, but nothing else). I have a character, Fighter, with sword equipped who cannot "Fight". The option is just not there.

To resurrect a dead character, you need either the spell, which is high level, a resurrect scroll/potion, or some other item with the resurrection ability. There could be some NPCs and fountains that also resurrect characters, but I haven't found any yet, and there weren't any in VI that I was aware of. You're better off just reloading if you're just starting out.

Edit: Wait, your character is dead, but regained health? That's never happened to me, though I've never tried to heal a dead character before. Are you sure he's not just paralyzed? Huh, apparently dead characters can regain health while remaining dead. What gives?

Weapons have different ranges in Wiz 7. If your fighter is positioned in the back row (PC #4, #5 and #6), he will only be able to attack with weapons with Extended range, such as spears. A fighter should really be in the front, though. Don't ask me how to rearrange the party order, because I don't know (damn obtuse interface ). Alternatively, if your character has Ninjutsu he could spend a turn hiding, after which he can hit with normal ranged weaponry even from the back row. Your fighter won't have it, but it's useful if you've got more melee characters with short-range weapons than you know what to do with.

Also everyone just keep missing even with sleep on enemies. They don't miss tho.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. If you miss a lot, upping the weapon skills is neccesary. Remember to keep your stamina high on all melee characters. There are also some spells that help with accuracy, such as Enchanted Blade and Bless (I think). If the issue is that they are hitting but not penetrating, the same strategy applies, really. There's not much you can do. In the early stages you will miss a lot no matter what.

Thanks for all those answers.

1) I'll restart yeah thanks.

2) He's really dead but regaining health AFAIK. There is a death skull behind his face and he fell to 0 Health and a message had said he died.

3) I'll restart the game and position my three fighter-type on the left.

4) Should I just run from early fight since I keep missing ?

 

[Strange Fellow]

1) I'll restart yeah thanks.

Save often. I save after every important (scripted) fight if none of my characters are dead.

2) He's really dead but regaining health AFAIK. There is a death skull behind his face and he fell to 0 Health and a message had said he died.

Yeah, I just tested it myself. The character in question died, um, intentionally. So I could test it. Yeah.

3) I'll restart the game and position my three fighter-type on the left.

Not the left. It goes like this:
1 2
3 4
5 6

1-3 are the front line. These will also recieve most of the hits. Keep your magic-users at the back.
Also, I just checked the Quick Reference Card included in the Steam install. Switching character is Shift + [Char#]. Now we know!

4) Should I just run from early fight since I keep missing ?

Running away was a really poor choice in VI, to the point that I haven't even tested if it works the same in VII. Keep in mind that since the random encounters are, well, random, sometimes the game just screws you. Early game is rough (frankly, I'm no authority here since I imported my party from VI, but if it's anything like that one, then you should fare much better once you've got a few levels under your belt, as well as some better equipment. Since you're starting at lvl 1(?), levelups come quickly enough). You'll also be seeing weapons with +THC along the line, but that much is obvious, and I hear good items are scarce in the early game. But I started with lvl 5 characters with good-ish items and am still getting raped on the regular, so there's not much to say other than that Wiz VII is no walk in the park.

There's also the possibility that you're going the wrong way, although it doesn't sound like it. You should not be entering any city but New City starting out. I hear there is a tutorial dungeon of sorts, but having imported, I started in a different location, so I can't help you there.

Out of curiosity: Are you playing with the mouse, or keyboard only?

I've never understood the point of mouse usage in a turn-based crawler either. I suppose if you want to add some sort of pixel-hunting element you would need one, but then I also don't like pixel-hunting either.

I'm not against mouse support in blobbers really, but hotkey support tends to suffer in mouse-driven games (not that Wiz VI is any good). Inventory management is the only thing I can think of that I really prefer doing with a mouse. Keyboard only inventories tend to be a hassle, even with a numeric hotkey for each item. It should be said that the only keyboard-only games I've played are from the 80's (and just barely the 90's), during which time inventory shuffling sucked ass in general.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

I'm playing with mouse because I didn't know I could use keyboard.

 

[Strange Fellow]

I'm playing with mouse because I didn't know I could use keyboard.

I won't tell you that it's better, but it certainly feels better coming from VI. I'd wager it's faster too, which you'll come to appreciate. One tip I can give you is to hold Enter during turn resolution to speed things up, useful if you don't care much about the details of the given round. You should also turn off monster sounds, as every monster will always play a little noise before attacking, rather than during the actual attack, which would be fine. There's also a delay setting in the in-game configuration menu, which you can fiddle with if the combat text scrolls too quickly/slowly. I'd put DOSBox cycles way high (I have it at 20 000) and increase delay; it runs smoother that way.

 

[mister_matt]

I was about to start playing VI and then realized I might have to spend over an hour rolling characters, and then I stopped being about to play VI.

Why should I do that to myself?

 

[Strange Fellow]

I was about to start playing VI and then realized I might have to spend over an hour rolling characters, and then I stopped being about to play VI.

Why should I do that to myself?

The Cosmic Forge editor has a "cheat" that increases the chance of good rolls. Besides, starting with basic classes and changing to prestige down the road is fun. As to why? Because it is damn good, of course!

 

[aweigh]

BTW, Wizardry's spell system is actually very interesting. The names aren't "made up", they're combinations of true words of power taken from Hebrew:

(from Codex official Discord chat)
aweigh: Ex I like all of the True Words of Power
aweigh: Given by Abraham unto Greenwood
aweigh: But my favorite Word of Power would be MA, which means "to expand"
aweigh: which is why it is in "DU MA PIC"
aweigh: Du = to bring unto yourself
aweigh: Ma = to expand
aweigh: Pic = to view
aweigh: Also why MA is in spells like Mahalito
aweigh: I love Wizardry spell system's true words of power a lot

 

[aweigh]

The mechanical changes to the spell system were already bad enough, but it's heart-breaking how Bradley threw away such a lovingly named and thoughtful nomenclature.


Good thing Wizardry managed to survive him.