Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[McPlusle]

Are Wizardry 8 and Wizards & Warriors the only first-person turn-based RPGs to fully utilize 3D space the way they do? I've barely touched Wizardry but I just played a few hours of Wizards & Warriors and so far I think it's excellent.

 

[octavius]

Might&Magic 6 to 9 are also 3D, but I'm not sure about the "fully utilize 3D space" part.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Might&Magic 6 to 9 are also 3D, but I'm not sure about the "fully utilize 3D space" part.

Of course they do. Especially 6 where you can make an entire enemy army clog at a closed door and chip away at the small bits of their sprites that clip through the door/wall texture untill you kill them all.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Of course they do. Especially 6 where you can make an entire enemy army clog at a closed door and chip away at the small bits of their sprites that clip through the door/wall texture untill you kill them all.

Some parts of the scenery aren't in 3D, like trees, they're just 2D panels moving around to stay parallel to the screen, it's obvious when you get through one, they have no depth.
It's not a problem, it just is.

 

[theSavant]

Another possibly misleading information is, that the Siege Arbalest (a crossbow) is said to be found in Trynton. Unfortunately I couldn't find it. And it's definitely not in the Safe in the Armory section of the Pagoda. Only boring Heavy Crossbows. That was a bummer for my Rogue... Did I miss the weapon somewhere?
EDIT: someone in some other forum wrote that he found the Siege Arbalest in the Mt. Gigas Caves - Lower Caves. I'll try to remember that next time.

Ah oookay... according to this website http://www.zimlab.com/wizardry/recovered/flamestryke/wizardry8/itemsw8/chestlistw8.html the Siege Arbalest seems to be randomized loot based on your party level and other things. And it can definitely appear in Trynton and Mt. Gigas Caves.
Well, that makes it harder to speedrun to these locations trying to get them early...

Hmm... but that means I could also get multiple Siege Arbalests. Or multiple Strong Bows. I thought about a party with at least 5% Kill percentage on every weapon...

Edit: for the record: in http://www.zimlab.com/wizardry/recovered/flamestryke/wizardry8/flamestrykes_w8.html and under "Item Index"->"Individual Item Index"->"Weapons, Swords, Bows..." every location of the item is listed. Great!

 

[coldcrow]

In Vanilla you want your Archers to use Tripleshot Crossbows.

 

[theSavant]

I don't know... Triple Shot Crossbow has no kill chance, and Quarrels with killl chance are sparse. On the other hand, a kill chance of 5% (Siege Arbalest) is not much and maybe 3 normal shots are better

Meanwhile I tried a rough 4-man-party with 2 Fighters, 1 Bard, 1 Alchemist... and made a quick-and-dirty walkthrough from Monastery to Arnika, skilling half-correct-half-wrong... putting points only on VIT, STR, DEX, sometimes INT on Alchemist... but without any real system.
Party did quite well and did not even die once (only ran away from huge group of crabs). This is typical... whenever I make a test party and "just don't care at all" everything seems to go nicely, but when I re-start the game from the beginning and try to play "sober and carefully", I can be sure that things are turning worse.

Decent setup though:
- Fighters have melee and ranged
- Alchemist and Bard have melee and ranged because of spells/instruments (including mass effects)
- Both together can have full magical protection (magic screen, elemental shield, soul shield when stealing from saxx)
- Also contain Locks&Traps & Knock-Knock

Not sure I'm going along with it though. The bard seems to be a bit inefficient right now (only 2 instruments). It probably gets better with progress in the game. The party is definitely more comfortable than my 2-man-party though. Killing enemies was already faster and it was convenient not having to "run to the enemy" but stay at ranged attack. I can also understand now, how a "full ranged party" as you mentioned previously is probably awesome.
With my minor party I definitely wished there were 2 additional party members. I can really feel how this game was made exactly for a party of 6.

I think I'll drop the idea of 1-3 man-parties completely. Also watched some Solo Runs... whole game consists of running away, tedious training, long and boring battles, requiring help of friendly NPC groups in battles (which take even longer then), and even at level 30+ too much cherrypicking of enemies required. So I agree with what you guys said, that it's not very reasonable. More a challenge for masochists.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Not sure I'm going along with it though. The bard seems to be a bit inefficient right now (only 2 instruments). It probably gets better with progress in the game. The party is definitely more comfortable than my 2-man-party though.

I find the bard less and less useful as you go on, early, he's strong as long as you can replenish his stamina (which you probably can't with your setup) but slowly and surely, he becomes useless.

 

[theSavant]

Not sure I'm going along with it though. The bard seems to be a bit inefficient right now (only 2 instruments). It probably gets better with progress in the game. The party is definitely more comfortable than my 2-man-party though.

I find the bard less and less useful as you go on, early, he's strong as long as you can replenish his stamina (which you probably can't with your setup) but slowly and surely, he becomes useless.

That's exactly the impression I have of a bard, and that's why I never made a party with a bard. Not even in other games (not even in Bard's Tale 4). Instead another wizard always seemed to be the better choice.

sigh... when you think you're gonna try something else and see it's shortcomings right from the start.

About the Stamina there's probably a solution: Necklace of stamina or so. Requires the Bard to be female though. Maybe there are even 2 necklaces. But the overall impression is still not convincing yet.

 

[Kruno]

Is the manual out yet?

 

[TheImplodingVoice]

Buy Cleve's game. He worked 25 years on it and it's most likely game of the century

 

[Darth Canoli]

Stamina regen is nice but you probably need the stamina spell in combat, not sure how much stamina potions replenish but you'd run dry sooner or later without it.

A priest is required for healing, removing ailments and raising the dead, you probably can do most of it with consumables but inventory space is limited.
A Bishop is probably better except for its higher skills requirements.

So i'd make a 5 men party based upon your actual setup
1 Fighter
1 Samouraï or Ninja instead of the second fighter
1 Priest / Bishop instead of the Bard
1 Alchemist
1 Ranger

 

[coldcrow]

theSavant You seem to have a confused opinion about the game mechanics.

While in the early game development paths might feel the same, you will see the true power of your builds from midgame onwards. That is why putting points here and there is pretty bad.
You really need to keep in mind what works and which statistic does what.
You do not need Vit - except 1-2 man parties or on the Lizard Fighter, because of its low opportunity cost.
For melee the best attributes are in order: str, dex/spd, sen, int
For ranged the best are: sen, dex/spd, str (for bows/xbows), int
For casters: int, pie/spd, sen

You want Power Strike, Eagle Eye and Powercast ASAP. If you focus on speed as the 2nd stat to raise, you get more attacks/swings at the expense of having less Attack Rating. For a non-critical strike melee, I'd choose dex, so he/she goes after the critical strikers. This stops being relevant when everyone has weapons with killchance.

If you develop your characters that way you will arrive at a conservatively OP party.

Now there are a few other choices, but they come with some caveats, which are either less killing power and/or longer training. One are the true hybrids: for example Samurai with Powerstrike and Powercast. Another is a party with Iron Will on everyone - this actually trivializes the game once they are fully developed, since Iron Will is the only skill which defends against side effects from monster attacks.

Also if you have no Wizardry spellbook you will not have access to missile shield, which is REALLY useful, as it negates some missile attacks completely.

A Bard can be a competent frontline fighter. Such a character could also get Iron Skin to offset the smaller HP pool and get more stamina for singing.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Not sure I'm going along with it though. The bard seems to be a bit inefficient right now (only 2 instruments). It probably gets better with progress in the game. The party is definitely more comfortable than my 2-man-party though.

I find the bard less and less useful as you go on, early, he's strong as long as you can replenish his stamina (which you probably can't with your setup) but slowly and surely, he becomes useless.

Useless? What kind of person sees unlimited Haste, Heal All, Restoration, Hex, Pandemonium (not to mention offloading the burden of Magic Screen and Soul Shield from your casters) and says "No, thanks"? I'll give you the fact that they're proportionally less useful than in the early game, where they're easily the strongest class, but useless? Wtf am I reading?

 

[Darth Canoli]

unlimited

Mages regenerate mana points faster than the bard regenerates stamina, besides, casting those spells increase multiple skills while he caps pretty quickly.
Also, some instruments are very heavy, i'm not sure he can keep those five in his personal inventory while not running naked and switching is boring and casters don't have to.
So i see a Bishop as an unlimited source of magic whom can cast those and much more, they're an unlimited source of spells and don't limit to 2/3 spells they can carry.

And i'm pretty sure some of those deplete more than half his stamina so there's that.

coldcrow Well said, you're a typing wizardry manual.

 

[Strange Fellow]

You're also ignoring the vast amount of bard-only swag, as well as the even vaster amount of stuff that's unavailable to caster classes. But if you consider every character to be useless who isn't a powergamed multi-school bishop then you win, I guess.

If we're being pragmatic about this, though, optimizing for Ascension Peak at the expense of early/mid-game utility is dumb, and grinding is for losers.

 

[Darth Canoli]

You're entitled to your opinion, of course but that's my experience, when everyone else is a powerhouse, by mid-game, the bard is useless to me because there's nothing he can do to speed up the combat resolution in 90% of the common battles and everything he does can be handled by a mage/priest/bishop or even an engineer.

Plus, he's gimped by weight limit (heavy equipment + very heavy instruments).

Also, you're the one talking about grinding, not me, i'm talking about casting spells, in Wiz 8 i keep protection spells on at all times because you never know what's going to happen next turn, it happens it increase skills as well, that's a bonus.

 

[theSavant]

One disdavantage of the Bard imo is, that he has only 4 direct damage instruments: Shrill Sound, Whirlwind, Lifesteal (1 Creature), Nuclear Blast. That's it for the whole game. It's a bit of a bummer.
Granted he has other helpful spells (especially that Sould Shield and Magic Screen) and also Haste, Group Insanity, FreezeAll (which may inflict paralysis), but I don't remember if they work on later enemies anymore. Many enemies seem to have resistances then. Also Shrill Sound & Whirlwind don't seem to be that great either.

One advantage may be that he can't run out of spellpoints. So he can spam it again and again. Maybe that's why the restriction on only 4 offensive spells?
I still think he makes a good combination with the Alchemist, as the Alchemist can cast Replenish Stamina (as well as other helpful spells like Cure Disease, Resurrection). And the Bard himself can cast HealAll, Restoration. And of course together all Magic Resistances (except Missile Shield for physical projectiles).

In comparison however Alchemists and Wizards each one has about 13 offensive spells. That's where they feel much more flexible than the Bard.
A Priest however lacks offensive spells too. Only at spelllevel 6+7 he suddenly gets 6 offensive spells.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Bard gear isn't heavy, and I'm p. sure there is at least one bard item that gives him +20 stranf. Also, he typically has higher initiative than all the mages, which lets him pull off a haste or freeze all immediately on combat start.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Keep going and i'm going to reload wizardry 8, i think there's a couple of mods i didn't try, like the one adding quests in arnika.

The best feature in this game is trying new classes/races combos for a brand new party.

 

[Strange Fellow]

You're entitled to your opinion, of course but that's my experience, when everyone else is a powerhouse, by mid-game, the bard is useless to me because there's nothing he can do to speed up the combat resolution in 90% of the common battles and everything he does can be handled by a mage/priest/bishop or even an engineer.

Look at it this way: Instead of having your casters do these things, you have someone who does the same using an easily replenishable resource, allowing him or her to spam spells with abandon, something which in mid-game your casters cannot do without resting after every second encounter, which is tedious and exploitative. If you're telling me that your casters can replenish mana in mid-game as easily as the bard can replenish stamina, then you're full of it. Another less than negligible factor is that the bard can spend his non-casting turns whacking enemies with Bloodlust and tanking hits, while casters can only plink away with slings (though the bard should really be casting every single turn).
As for direct damage spells, who cares, they suck. Overall, the best damage spell in the game is Insanity, which the bard can spam at his leisure.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Strange Fellow

SPOILER ALERT, don't look at this, it'll ruin your apparent struggle with casters.

Spoiler

Lizardman Bishop isn't a good combo but faerie is.

 

[coldcrow]

As for direct damage spells, who cares, they suck.

Typical opinion of a player using only the standard mostly melee party. Ofc that AoE spell will suck when your killing machine can execute 1hkills, as most of the AoE spread damage is wasted. Play a ranged party with 2+ fairie/elven bishops and enjoy total dominance without the need to run after spread out enemies. Of course a 6 bishop party is viable too, but I rather want to stay sane.

 

[Strange Fellow]

As for direct damage spells, who cares, they suck.

Typical opinion of a player using only the standard mostly melee party. Ofc that AoE spell will suck when your killing machine can execute 1hkills, as most of the AoE spread damage is wasted. Play a ranged party with 2+ fairie/elven bishops and enjoy total dominance without the need to run after spread out enemies. Of course a 6 bishop party is viable too, but I rather want to stay sane.

Meh. Of course softening up targets is useful, but disabling makes them both easier to hit and take more damage, and has the added benefit of, y'know, making them not smash your party's faces in. Add Insanity to that mix and you're laughing.

 

[coldcrow]

Debuffs are the first round of spells. After that it's AoE or situational spells for the ranged party. My point was that melee and AoE damage is mutually exclusive in this game.