Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[Lady_Error]

I don't know why people never consider Pool of Radiance a blobber. Is it the tactical combat?

Blobber by definition means acting as a "blob" and not as individual characters. Moving as a blob and fighting as individual characters is still kind of a half-blobber, just like Realms of Arkania.

 

[Butter]

You sound more like the people who play blobbers and then go on saying something ridiculous like, I like blobbers, but I wish they were less like blobbers.

You have so many variations on the formula, you have RT team blobbers (DM, EotB, Grimrock), you have single char RT blobbers (Anvil of Dawn, Vaporum), you have early Wizardry-type games (W1-5, Elminage, Paper Sorcerer, Dark Spire), you have late Wizardry-type games (W6-8, Grimoire), you have the various strains of Might & Magic blobbers (1-2, 3-5+10 (Legend of Amberland, Legacy), 6-9), you have something like single char TB-based blobbers (The Quest), the Avatar type-games (Mordor, Demise), you have odd experiments like Labyrinth of Refrain that massively changes the formula without becoming something else, you have all the eroge blobbers that have popped up over the years (Lightning Warrior Raidy 1-3, Sakura Dungeon, Words Worth, Rance 6), you have the various strain of Wizardry-inspired games that do their own thing like the Megami Tensei games (which are Japanese but don't have weeb graphics or not too much), the Etrian Odyssey games and so on.

If you don't like anything there, it just means you don't like blobber, categorical. You might like single titles in the genre, but in general, you just don't like it.

It's a genre that's hit a creative dead end, like adventure games, rts and fps.

There's a lot that could still be done with blobbers. Imagine if they used Zelda-like gimmicks in their puzzle design (going through the same dungeon in two different time periods, inverting a dungeon, raising and lowering water levels, etc).

 

[Matador]

I think the Wiz5 blobber combat, with 2 rows of fighters and weapon ranges is the best compromise in turn based between full tactical and fast combat. It lets the player experience the exploration aspect of the game with the correct pace and give challenging and fun battles that makes you worry about resource management, but they don't drag for too long.

Also I like a lot the semi random encounters. They give a little of variety and control of the encounter design at the same time.

It's not a mystery that Wizardry design is still used in 2019, such a great concept.

 

[Tito Anic]

You sound more like the people who play blobbers and then go on saying something ridiculous like, I like blobbers, but I wish they were less like blobbers.

I love Wizardry 7 started it two times but random encounters got me
I think random encounters are cancer of game design.

 

[cvv]

You have so many variations on the formula, you have RT team blobbers (DM, EotB, Grimrock), you have single char RT blobbers (Anvil of Dawn, Vaporum), you have early Wizardry-type games (W1-5, Elminage, Paper Sorcerer, Dark Spire), you have late Wizardry-type games (W6-8, Grimoire), you have the various strains of Might & Magic blobbers (1-2, 3-5+10 (Legend of Amberland, Legacy), 6-9), you have something like single char TB-based blobbers (The Quest), the Avatar type-games (Mordor, Demise), you have odd experiments like Labyrinth of Refrain that massively changes the formula without becoming something else, you have all the eroge blobbers that have popped up over the years (Lightning Warrior Raidy 1-3, Sakura Dungeon, Words Worth, Rance 6), you have the various strain of Wizardry-inspired games that do their own thing like the Megami Tensei games (which are Japanese but don't have weeb graphics or not too much), the Etrian Odyssey games and so on.

Good write up, except single char games like The Quest or Vaporum are not blobbers, they're first person RPGs.
Btw I'd add Lords of Xulima as an one-of-a-kind isometric blobber, at least I'm not aware this has been done before.
Also half-blobbers like Realms of Arkania, Betrayal at Krondor or Albion should be mentioned too.

 

[Grauken]

It's a genre that's hit a creative dead end, like adventure games, rts and fps.

What genres haven't hit a dead end according to you? Serious question

 

[cvv]

Also people didn't stop playing adventures because of some creative stagnation but because RPGs are basically adventures with combat and levelling, which is a straight upgrade.

 

[Viata]

There is a reason why Quest for Glory was cool as fuck.

 

[cvv]

There is a reason why Quest for Glory was cool as fuck.

QfG 3 is in my All-Genre Top 10 to this day.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Also people didn't stop playing adventures because of some creative stagnation but because RPGs are basically adventures with combat and levelling, which is a straight upgrade.

Also alternative quests solutions and ability to brute-force through some of the problems. I'm a bit half-hearted about adventures now, but as a kid/young teen the game-play felt oppressive. Having only one solution to progress and bumbling around through the word when there were no solutions available felt like being stuck in a cage. No wonder "locked room" adventure games became a thing.

Regarding other genres:
RTS: didn't hit a "dead end". They are just a hard as hell to port to consoles while still retaining the usual appeal and without watering anything down. Which means that they simply cannot survive in this multiplatform reality. Why spend money on a game that has limited appeal can be only released on one platform? Also unlike RPGs, RTS cannot be saved by a bunch of high motivated fans. Modern-gaming elements are too integrated into them. You just need pretty graphics, voice acting, high-quality music, multiplayer as well as team to balance the multiplayer properly.
Blobbers: I wouldn't say that they are "dead" since there are still mainstream game utilizing blobber-inspired combat. For example Persona 5. However classic blobbers are mostly a thing of the past simply because all major elements aged, and fallen out of grace. Now they are only appropriate in games that are actively trying to be retro. Blobber combat: being able to actually move your characters just feels much better; first-person exploration: gamers today don't want to map the dungeons manually, and once you add auto-map there is no reason to bother; step-based movement: just why would anyone use it?

 

[Lady_Error]

Blobber does not equal step-based movement, though it is an abstraction that has its own benefits. Gameplay is more chess-like and invites the use of imagination, which can create an almost magical type of immersion.

 

[Viata]

RTS: didn't hit a "dead end". They are just a hard as hell to port to consoles while still retaining the usual appeal and without watering anything down. Which means that they simply cannot survive in this multiplatform reality. Why spend money on a game that has limited appeal can be only released on one platform?

Fuck you!

 

[rusty_shackleford]

blobber genre isn't dead, it became jrpgs
which is why I advocate for moving blobber threads to the jrpg subforum

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

RTS: didn't hit a "dead end". They are just a hard as hell to port to consoles while still retaining the usual appeal and without watering anything down. Which means that they simply cannot survive in this multiplatform reality. Why spend money on a game that has limited appeal can be only released on one platform?

Fuck you!

It was obviously written from a Publisher's perspective.

 

[gestalt11]

I don't know why people never consider Pool of Radiance a blobber. Is it the tactical combat?

Yes, blobbers by definition treat your party as a blob, i.e. a square/cube on the map. Gold box game combat was completely different and only have navigational blobbing.

 

[gestalt11]

what's wrong with wiz4?

Wiz4 is mechanically very different than other wizardries additionally its stupidly hard in many ways (I mean it has both high difficulty and some dumb obstructionist gimics). You start as werdna instead of a party of adventurers and you recruit monsters. Fights don't give experience points etc.

In a sense Wiz4 should not have been a numbered part of the series but its own side thing.

To give an example of "stupid hard":

"Another major example that seriously hinders unfamiliar players is the seemingly impossible task of exiting the very first room. The only way out is a hidden door which may be revealed by casting a "light" spell called "Milwa". The only way to do this is to recruit a group of Priests. This seemingly-simple task is made unintuitive due to the lack of any evidence that there is a door to begin with; the necessity of recruiting a group of Clerics, which are ineffective in combat and take the place of effective combat recruits; and the need to enter combat until the Clerics cast this spell."

 

[octavius]

And to make matters worse you may even get attacked by random monsters before you reach the recruiting station.

But at least you have time to think. In Chaos Strikes Back you start naked, in darkness, flanked by two Purple Worms, on a square that will summon another worm every time you step on the square (which you will do if you panic).

They don't make games like this anymore...

 

[Viata]

Games now have to start with a 3 hours cutscene and a tutorial, because who the fucks read the manual, right?

 

[MpuMngwana]

"Another major example that seriously hinders unfamiliar players is the seemingly impossible task of exiting the very first room. The only way out is a hidden door which may be revealed by casting a "light" spell called "Milwa". The only way to do this is to recruit a group of Priests. This seemingly-simple task is made unintuitive due to the lack of any evidence that there is a door to begin with; the necessity of recruiting a group of Clerics, which are ineffective in combat and take the place of effective combat recruits; and the need to enter combat until the Clerics cast this spell."

TBH this one actually makes sense, because casting the light spell (from the priest spellbook) in Wiz1-3 was a way of detecting secret doors, and Wiz4 was intended for Wizardry veterans. I have yet to play Wiz4, but from what I've read puzzles get harder from there, requiring knowledge of Jewish mysticism and whatnot.

But at least you have time to think.

I believe in some versions of the game, Trebor's ghost chases you in real time, and if he catches you it's game over.

 

[gestalt11]

"Another major example that seriously hinders unfamiliar players is the seemingly impossible task of exiting the very first room. The only way out is a hidden door which may be revealed by casting a "light" spell called "Milwa". The only way to do this is to recruit a group of Priests. This seemingly-simple task is made unintuitive due to the lack of any evidence that there is a door to begin with; the necessity of recruiting a group of Clerics, which are ineffective in combat and take the place of effective combat recruits; and the need to enter combat until the Clerics cast this spell."

TBH this one actually makes sense, because casting the light spell (from the priest spellbook) in Wiz1-3 was a way of detecting secret doors, and Wiz4 was intended for Wizardry veterans. I have yet to play Wiz4, but from what I've read puzzles get harder from there, requiring knowledge of Jewish mysticism and whatnot.

But at least you have time to think.

I believe in some versions of the game, Trebor's ghost chases you in real time, and if he catches you it's game over.

Yes, its not unsolvable or completely arbitrary. Its not that it makes no sense. But it more like debugging a computer program than playing a game. You make some assumption, i.e. there must be some way outta here but I can't see it. So then must hypothesize based on previous gameplay the most likely thing is there is a hidden door. If you played previous wiz games then you should know about Milwa, so this is the "expert player" check. Then you basically have to test this hypothesis through trial and error of the new game mechanics.

In a sense its a decent test of whether you are equipped to even play the game. But its still kind of stuplidly cumbersome and pointlessly abstruse. One the biggest culprits here is the fact that testing your hypothesis requires you to scum combat for a spellcast.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

blobber genre isn't dead, it became jrpgs
which is why I advocate for moving blobber threads to the jrpg subforum

Real-time blobbers, in the lineage starting with Dungeon Master, never found success in Japan and had no relation to the JRPG subgenre. The only influence of real-time blobbers on the course of Japanese RPG development is indirect via Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (a 3D single-character successor to real-time blobbers), which inspired King's Field and therefore ultimately led to Demon's/Dark Souls.

Turn-based blobbers, in the lineage starting with Wizardry, quickly obtained great popularity in Japan, and the Japanese have continued to develop such games even as they dwindled to a niche among Western RPGs. The JRPG subgenre originated with games influenced by both Wizardry-likes and Ultima-likes (also directly from D&D/AD&D in the case of Final Fantasy), but they abandoned the use of first-person perspective for exploration and are characterized by simplification of game mechanics in favor of narrative.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

blobber genre isn't dead, it became jrpgs
which is why I advocate for moving blobber threads to the jrpg subforum

Real-time blobbers, in the lineage starting with Dungeon Master, never found success in Japan and had no relation to the JRPG subgenre. The only influence of real-time blobbers on the course of Japanese RPG development is indirect via Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (a 3D single-character successor to real-time blobbers), which inspired King's Field and therefore ultimately led to Demon's/Dark Souls.

Turn-based blobbers, in the lineage starting with Wizardry, quickly obtained great popularity in Japan, and the Japanese have continued to develop such games even as they dwindled to a niche among Western RPGs. The JRPG subgenre originated with games influenced by both Wizardry-likes and Ultima-likes (also directly from D&D/AD&D in the case of Final Fantasy), but they abandoned the use of first-person perspective for exploration and are characterized by simplification of game mechanics in favor of narrative.

I'm glad you agree with me

 

[Casual Hero]

I was feeling inspired, so I am going through the PS1 version of Wizardry 1 right now. Dang, it is amazing how well this held up over the past 38(!) years. All the systems work together like a finely tuned machine- for the most part.

I've mapped most of the first 4 levels, and I am definitely not an expert when it comes to dungeon design or anything like that, but looking back on my maps so far the levels seem really smartly designed. Like, look at the very first level. I didn't realize it at first when I was mapping it out, but it is divided neatly into 4 quadrants, and they each have a very distinct style to their arrangement. It's almost like 4 baby sized mazes in one level; just enough to get you used to navigating. And since the layout of each quadrant has its own style, it is pretty easy to find your way around level 1 even without looking at the map.

I went and added some basic color to the map of level 1 in MS Paint, so that you can see each section easier. This might be obvious to some veterans here on the forum, but it is really cool to discover things like this in such an early cRPG.

 

[newtmonkey]

I've mapped most of the first 4 levels, and I am definitely not an expert when it comes to dungeon design or anything like that, but looking back on my maps so far the levels seem really smartly designed. Like, look at the very first level. I didn't realize it at first when I was mapping it out, but it is divided neatly into 4 quadrants, and they each have a very distinct style to their arrangement. It's almost like 4 baby sized mazes in one level; just enough to get you used to navigating. And since the layout of each quadrant has its own style, it is pretty easy to find your way around level 1 even without looking at the map.

This is indeed one of the best things about Wizardry 1. One mistake that lesser clones make is to just throw a bunch of nonsense mazes at you and call it a "mapping challenge" (i.e. many of the dungeons in Bard's Tale 1). Wizardry 1 is FULL of mapping challenges, but the dungeon layouts are quite clever and memorable. I think I could still to this day draw rough maps of many of the dungeon floors from memory.

 

[Matador]

Memorable floors, and very smart shortcuts to avoid backtracking tedium. Very satisfying to unlock the elevator to skip floors already explored. Exploration rewarded as it should be. It's a real masterpiece.

I would like to know if Miyazaki took inspiration in Wiz 1 directly for shortcuts in Souls series.