Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[DraQ]

I'm currently playing iron man for the first time, yet I made a party totally based on my whimsical inspiration of the moment

My frontliner fairie monk stands his ground pretty well for instance.

Actually I don't see much reason why this wouldn't work if you just try to maximize #of attacks, crit chance and AC, while neglecting damage.
Faeries are fast, have natural AC bonus, get a lot of points as monks, monk weapons tend to be equippable by faeries and it's not like monk is particularly gear-dependent profession anyway.

I think the only professions where faeries are genuinely screwed are bard and gadgetee due to carrying a lot of heavy junk.
Valkyries also have it tough because the best spear they can hope for is spiked spear, though they can neglect their class skill and go for other weapon types instead while still benefiting from cheat death.
Rangers won't benefit from crossbows and blunderbuss but otherwise should work fine, apart from lack of ability to carry large amount of ammo.
Straight melee damage classes like fighter/rogue/lord may be a bit problematic, but you can find faerie compatible gear for them.
There are a lot of nice light swords (all rapiers, Fang, Ivory Blade, *Light* *Sword*), daggers and staves (both offhand and 2h).
You can even go mace&flail, although that's better with monk, otherwise you won't have much options between Vampire Chain and plain bullwhip.

With samurai it's like with damage focused melee classes, with additional benefit of having critical strike so they don't need to focus on actual damage, and the fact that most katanas and all bos can be wielded by faeries.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Actually I don't see much reason why this wouldn't work if you just try to maximize #of attacks, crit chance and AC, while neglecting damage.
Faeries are fast, have natural AC bonus, get a lot of points as monks, monk weapons tend to be equippable by faeries and it's not like monk is particularly gear-dependent profession anyway.

Sure, but they also have shit strength and vitality. It took about ten levels to have enough strength to start being really effective (I'm fighting bare handed martial arts, monks gonna monk) since instant kills are way too rare to really matter. The other points almost all went to vitality since tanking takes lots of HP. Still can't believe I'm having a fairie as a strong tank.

The lack of equipment is sure nice since fairies can't use shit. I can't even use the Zynarix plate (monk and ninja prohibited).

 

[DraQ]

Took me almost ten levels to have enough strength to start being really effective (I'm fighting bare handed martial arts, monks gonna monk) since instant kills are way too rare to really matter.

I'm not sure about critical strikes being useless, you can attack ridiculous number of times with HtH.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Honestly I'd say the monk didn't make more than 5% of his body count with crits even though I pump all the points I can into it. But it's a very satisfying skill just the same. Not very efficient but very pleasant. I'll see if the percentage improves later, provided I survive long enough. From my previous plays using either monks, samurais or ninjas, I remember it being more significant at higher levels but still not really effective.
Paradoxically, given its name, I see it more as a "flavour" skill than a "critical"one.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

INSTANT KILL! starts to happen really often when you get levels on your hero. Esp. Ninja (or Ranger) where you can have throwing ammo crit + your own crit. Every fight: at least 2-3 crits. But by that point you'll already be at Ascension Peak.

Thing is, the only "fat" monster where it really matters is Nessie, and by that time you won't have the % to rely on - except the crit ammo ofc.

When you're running a solo (Faerie Ninja/Bishop), or duo, crits turn from "flavour" to really, really helpful - you will reach those "high levels" much earlier.

Now Samurai's "lightning strike!" - that's a true flavour skill.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Sure, playing solo would make it more valuable. But when playing "normally" it's not really gonna help much. If it matters for the last 10% of the game, it equals not mattering for me. For the gratest part of the game it will at best hasten an already won fight a bit. Having no bard or gadgeteer in my party, the skills that I rely heavily upon (except for weapon skills of course) are "throwing" and "artifacts" since powders and scrolls/magic items do change the tide of a battle in a really significant way. The more so since they can backfire on your sorry ass.

Now Samurai's "lightning strike!" - that's a true flavour skill.

Yeah, it's so bad in terms of "not happening", you forgot you had it. You forgot again. I think it happened like 5 times and my party is level 11.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Btw I've never, ever used expendable magic items in combat, except the healing ones when I *absolutely* must. It's just the terrible "hoarding" mentality

"What if I need it later?"

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

That's how I also play, especially the IE games (I still hoard antidotes when I know for sure that there isn't a single poisoning creature left on the whole planet), but after 2 to 4 replays I usually manage to convince myself that the secret dungeon of ultimate ressource consuming doom really isn't there, so I might as well use those. Flash powder, for instance, is very effective. It starts to show its limits now that I'm over a certain level but it saved my ass more than once during the first 10 levels. Way, way more useful than the occasional crit.

At first they were like...

But then they were like...

 

[DraQ]

That's how I also play, especially the IE games (I still hoard antidotes when I know for sure that there isn't a single poisoning creature left on the whole planet), but after 2 to 4 replays I usually manage to convince myself that the secret dungeon of ultimate ressource consuming doom really isn't there, so I might as well use those.

so true in my case as well.

Fortunately Ironman cures this kind of mentality really well.

Flash powder, for instance, is very effective.

B-b-but flash powder can be used to make pandemonium powder which sells for like 2k.
:point:

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

B-b-but flash powder can be used to make pandemonium powder which sells for like 2k.

Playing iron man, I don't need cash, I need to stay alive. And somehow I'm too old school for caring about crafting/alchemy and stuff like that. I want my loot ready to use, not in kit. I"m probably one of the only players of M&M who made 6/7/8 about three times each without brewing a single potion. Same with ToEE, I had to replay it three times to finally take a look at crafting. It's ok I guess, but somehow I still resent crafting in my D&D. I'd get my ass handed to me real bad in "Knights of the chalice" if I played it.

Weirdly enough I don't mind crafting outside fantasy games and loved it in the Jagged Alliance series for instance.

 

[Tigranes]

OK, the Codex has done its one good thing again and I've now Wiz8+patch+wizfasted for great justice. Although I had to go to safe mode to install...

I'm assuming the standard approach of try everything, die a lot, be patient and take it slow will reveal the greatness over time. I expect to make whatever the hell I want for a party, then eventually restart.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Make any hell of a party you want (it's a forgiving game), and enjoy your Wiz8 "virginity" broken - it only happens once

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Just out of curiosity, how many of you wiz8 lovers here don't use wizfast ? I tried it for my first replay, since the combats tend to drag a bit but I uninstalled almost immediately. It's ridiculous and kills my immershun, I'd rather wait a bit longer than play some cartoon fantasy. Plus, the real lag coming from AI taking seconds between turns and making all enemies with same initiative move one by one (instead of something like ToEE), making them move like they're high on coke didn't improve combat time that much in the end.

 

[Tigranes]

After some skim reading of this thread and the in-game tooltips only, I've made:
Nietzsche, the Mook Fighter
Barthes, the Human Samurai
Ludwig W(ittgenstein), the Faerie Ninja
Sartre, the Hobbit Bard
Weber, the Elf Bishop
Leibniz, the Elf Bishop

I'm playing on Normal, and planning to put it up the second time through (and try the more exotic classes then). I'm thinking the current party is pretty humdrum. Of course, I might restart after a few hours and do that anyway. Currently just traipsing around the monastery and it seems good fun, and UI isn't that unfriendly.

I put on Wizfast but I'm not sure it's working, I'm still at a speed where I can see enemies move and it does feel like it'll get tiresome later.

 

[I_am_Ian]

Tigranes, those race/class selections are far from humdrum. Bishops are great but their development is a bit retarded compared to pure casters so you will be facing greater challenge early on. By mid-game they will be strong though and you'll have access to every spell eventually. The ninja is an advanced class that is tricky to optimize for a first timer especially as a faerie.

Keep us updated on your progress.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

@ Vazhdru

Same, the only time I really had a problem with slowness in vanilla Wiz8 was in random battles involving "patrol" groups of Umpani and T'rang where they take their sweet time to fire their stuff, each one at a time. But Wizfast won't help there anyway - it only makes mobs "teleport" instead of walking.

@ Tigranes

That's a cockfest alright...

Females have a very slight advantage over males in this game, but nothing to obsess over.

You've picked a pretty "powergaming" party, Faerie Ninja & 2 Bishops I'm looking at you. Not sure how much you are spoiled already, e.g. do you know where to find that weapon that makes people pick Faerie for Ninja in the first place (it's not a 100% guaranteed drop)?

 

[Tigranes]

Heh. As I say, I barely know anything beyond this thread (which I skimmed to skip all the DraQ Rage), the manual and in-game tooltips. My race selection mainly came from tooltip recommendations + anti-furryism (Mooks look like Wookies, they're OK). So no, I don't know anything about weapons, just that bishops and bards are apparently a good idea.

Ludwig is female though, I wanted one female just in case.

Wandered around the monastery mostly thinking it's typical early level stuff (i.e. not that many tactical options), but the formation stuff is interesting. Swam around in the water and ended up finding couple of resurrection powder, which was useful since Gregor? the Spider on the second floor took out Wittgenstein and Weber. At the moment it's more about hurling various disabling spells (Terror, Paralyse) and hoping for the best. Now I've just entered the Upper Monastery, though there's a room with a trap floor, a riddle and a secret door in the wall that I can't work out.

Q: With the bishops, what determines new spells that you are able to choose on level up? Weber is putting points in divinity, mental magic and divine magic, while Leibniz is doing so in arcane, water and fire, but weirdly, Weber seems to get more water magic spells to choose from, and Leibniz more divine? (Yes, I've already found a couple of spellbooks so I know about those.)

 

[hoverdog]

Q: With the bishops, what determines new spells that you are able to choose on level up? Weber is putting points in divinity, mental magic and divine magic, while Leibniz is doing so in arcane, water and fire, but weirdly, Weber seems to get more water magic spells to choose from, and Leibniz more divine? (Yes, I've already found a couple of spellbooks so I know about those.)

Selection of spells is determined by their corresponding magic school skill: Divine (priest spells), Alchemist, Psionic and Wizardry. There are specific thresholds (I don't remember the numbers, but I think 2lvl spells need ~18 in spellbook) for each spell tier. Some spells are featured in more than one spellbook, like Heal. Elemental skills (water, earth, fire, air, mental and arcane) do not unlock any spells, they just make them easier to cast.
You have two bishops, each of them should be two-school. Let's say Weber gets Psionic and Divine spellbooks - on every level, he should pump both those skills, the remaining three points you can use on bolstering elements (remember than alchemist book does not use mental skill at all).

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Kinda poetic eh, the roach of existentialism (Gregor) taking on Wittgenstein himself (herself)!

Re: bishops

There are realms (e.g. Wizardry), and then there are schools (e.g. Fire). What determines access to spells via level-up (and whether you can read the spellbook) is 2 things: your character level and your skillpoints in the realm to which the spell relates (note, some spells are found in multiple realms). That's why the recommended course of action for all bishops is to invest in all realms equally (i.e. 2 points into 3 realms, 3 in one remaining) and ignore schools, so they get all corresponding spells as soon as they reach the appropriate level, while training their schools through usage. That's also why many people hate Bishops - to be effective, their spells need "grinding" - so cast as many spells as possible every fight, even when not completely necessary.

Your two Bishops will definitely need a lot of work at start, but if you develop them properly they are really the most powerful spellcasters you can find.

 

[hoverdog]

I don't see the point of 4-school bishops. Of course, once they beef up and gain enough experience to cast all those spells, they kick ass - but that comes in the last say 10% of the game, when all your team is overpowered to cheese and back. The rest 90% they suck, especially if you save all your spellpicks for those goodie 7th circle spells. Why give yourself a mostly useless hero? Two- or three-school bishops are much better IMHO, and with two bishops in a party (like Tigranes), you can divide all four realms equally, thus getting two good spellcasting heroes right from the start.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Why pick a Bishop in the first place, then, if not to use their strongest point (being able to learn every useful spell in the game)?

Sure there will be unnecessary duplication with 2 Bishops w.r.t. some spells, like passive out-of-combat buffs. But the majority of stuff - like having 2 guys who can cast Haste, Iron Skin, Insanity, etc. adds a lot of power and flexibility to how you play out your combat. E.g. one casts Haste, the other Iron Skins the main fighter, then next round both Iron Skin the other front-liners, and by round 3 you're ready to use your debuffs/blasting.

You don't "save all picks for 7th circle" - that's just redundant, you'll have +30 unused spell points by the end then.
Start investing heavily as soon as the really good spells (like Haste) start popping, and you'll never be for the lack of extra spell points anyway.

Like I said, if you properly develop your Bishop/s they'll start rolling stuff by mid-game, not by the last 10% - and they'll still be useful in earlygame unless you refuse to "spam" spells in combat to develop their schools.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

About that Faerie Ninja: basically there's this weapon called Cane of Corpus, which is imba, and which only Faerie Ninjas can equip.

A guy called Don Barlone you meet while exploring Trynton carries it - you can get it off him either by killing him (hard), or pickpocketing (insanely hard). If you kill him, there's only 50% he drops it, so make sure to save before you start combat, and reload if it doesn't drop.

 

[Tigranes]

Well, I think I've done most things in the monastery, so time to try Arnika. I expect the party to be extremely unoptimised, but that's OK, I'm having fun. Ludwig got herself killed one more time and spent a while in the afterlife before I found more powder, so is a little behind XP wise. Will be fun to start getting AOE spells and other things, and I should also experiment with various combat powders and such.

 

[Renegen]

Ah Vazdru, I see you're playing ironman then. Keep us posted how it goes.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

I don't think he's playing ironman... it's his first ever Wiz8 run.