Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

imweasel

Guest
DraQ just completely ignores the fact that players are rewarded for combat in his favorite game: Skyrim

:shunthenonbeliever:

Never heard him bitch about that before for some reason, I guess combat XP isn't so bad after all.
DraQ in about every post in this thread so far said:
Use based is superior but costlier, more complex and buggier alternative that shines in freeform, non quest-centric games.
Congratultions! You have won reading comprehension special olympics.
153pb_360.jpg

Remember - everyone is a winner!!! :) :) :)
What makes you think I read your incoherent walls of text? I never do.

Anyway, you whine about games that reward the player for combat, the exception being your favorite one, which is Skyrim. Doesn't matter if it is a different XP system, you are rewarded for combat in that shitty game and that's it. Or does your sword skill not improve when you kill enemies?

It's a matter of false principles, i.e. you're full of shit.
 

crufty

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
6,383
Location
Glassworks
Goal only XP has an advantage of actually balancing the game rather than punishing the party for certain solutions, of avoiding degenerate gameplay aiming at reaping more rewards than deserved and of being actually simpler to implement.

ah. I think we speak the same language.

Combat XP wasn't really the right phrase, my bad. Combat XP = Entity XP. A simple/stupid encounter XP reward could simply be the total of all entity XP for the encounter. Naturally, any system worth its salt would allow for designer fiat.

In real terms, a designer puts together a 5 level dungeon and a maguffin at the end. The maguffin XP award grated on exit could simply be the sum of all creatures in the dungeon. Playtesters in an arena determine that entity 1 was worth too much xp, and entity 2 was worth too little. Adjust those values, and now the encounter awards also inflate or deflate, helping to balance the game.

Already I imagine the folks who get antsy about collapsing three skills (short, long, two handed blade) into a single 'one handed weapon' are starting to forth at the mouth -- what about XP for traps? Secret doors? XP for sneaking by the orcs? This is where XP is an abstraction, and XP in class based settings work really well--one can assume that a class used whatever skill it had to reach the objective. How it got there was less of an issue then the fact IT did get there.

Destroying a goon and having the option to just bail on the quest-giver is empowering. Being made to tell the quest-giver, no matter what if you want your XP, is pretty fucking lame and 100% destroys any sense of freedom.

I agree. But, that is really just poor encounter design, not so much a flaw in the system.

Farmer - Something is eating my pigs, can you check it out?
Party camps out, and at 3:30 am observes an ogre hopping the fence and swiping a pig -- partial XP award
Party kills ogre -- entity XP award
Party returns ogre head to farmer -- reputation + $ reward

Now, maybe the party bails on killing the ogre--maybe the party kills the ogre but bails on the farmer. What is lost? Naturally, this is the lamest cliche quest ever. What if the ogre was stealing pigs to rescue them from slaughter by the farmer? What if the ogre was under a charm monster spell cast by an orc necromancer and was nothing more then a puppet? Would it make sense to offer any XP for the killing of the ogre at that point in time?
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,970
Here we go again...
You could make due just derping around and following the main plot, exp was aplenty just doing that.
Too bad that interesting content wasn't.
It doesnt matter, fact is you get xp by walking tru a checkpoint, not by beating the enemy
In kill XP you only get XP by dealing that final blow. You can fight a dragon all you want but will only get the XP by stubbing it in the toe with that final blow - some challenge, swish and it's all over.
Another bullshit statement, rules state you get xp if you beat the creature, killing isnt necesary. It all comes down to execution, we are in the world of the future, im pretty sure it can be implemented easily.

But i do feel forced to take quests! obs says "there is only one way to get the cookies".
Then don't give XP for every shitty little quests out there and conversely, dole out XPs for stuff player *will* want to do making it quests of sort (like exploring some ancient temple ruins for an item of POWARRR).
im not arguing there shouldnt be exp for quest (tho i personally dont like the notion, fact is that its there and it keeps the game rolling, so its cool).
Also a contrivance "to avoid giving action xp we give action xp disguised as quest xp" Fuck draq, you are a genius, problem with this approach is that if the player left a single requirement of the arbitrary bullshit you need to do to get the reward out, he misses it completely, so you either force the player to complete it with backtracking on empty explored locations and frustrate him, or you make it linear and impossible to miss (bioware!).

Fuck, this is so obvious i dont see how you can miss it, he replaced an inexistent problem with a real one.
Have it ever occurred to you that perhaps I'm NOT missing it?
And no he *possibly* replaced an existing and severe problem with its milder analogue. The solution isn't to go back, but all the fucking way through - if the player cannot be forced or unconditionally motivated to do something, it shouldn't give XP.
HOOOKAY buddy, you went full retard for a second, ill let you rephrase this on the answer.

Im guessing you did that? fun fun fun
No, it definitely wasn't fun fun fun.
I know.
But it allowed me to get to use fun fun fun spells and shit earlier, on encounters where they were fun fun fun, plus it helped with some hairier encounters very early on, so knowing that I endured and in enduring I have grown strong.
Which is the shit I'm talking about - antithesis to fun AND reason you engage in out of healthy self-interest.
So you went tru a lot of bullshit to get something you would have gotten a couple hours later anyway, and you were left so butthurt by this you have to force everyone to shut their mouth and follow the line? You didnt even need to hunt bears, there are so many locations to explore, many quests to take on, you can probably cap long before you even really start the main quest if that bothers you. If you dont like the content then... thats a problem with the content, not the mechanics. (just saying, youve brought that thing up on multiple occasions like it was related, it isnt)

at least it never did on BG.
Lack of alternative quest solutions in BG might have something to do with that.
Again, your problem is with the content, not the mechanics.

Quite the contrary, he had the audacity of asking each individual player rather than the majority of unwashed rabble. Quite an incline.
Not feeling it, actually banal shit boring comes to mind every time i read of his take on old mechanics, with a couple exceptions.

I want to roleplay. Its you that seems to need a helping hand with that.
No, I want to roleplay, you want to LARP.
No, You want to be forced to roleplay, I want to roleplay free withing the boundaries of the narrative (and ONLY the narrative).

I want my decisions to be supported by mechanics rather than to knowingly pick suboptimal ones because fuck if I know.
How would you know if you havent read a guide? If you gave a shit about the narrative, you wouldnt have a problem picking up suboptimal options anyway.

You apparently don't care about outcomes.
Outcomes of wut? elaborate.

A sensible person would have stayed home.
That's why we have quest hooks.
I agree, but sensible people need their own custom one, powerful reasons to kill, etc. such sophisticated thing for a blank slate character that is also acknowledged by the narrative is a bit much to ask. BG pulled it off tho, it sucessfully forced you into a life of adventuring, after that you were on your own, with a few nods in the narrative in the form of questions about what you want when the madness is over. Fact is maybe you hated gnolls, makes sense to kill them now that you had the power, the game cannot tell you that but it would fail to reward you for your character development with a "quest complete" reward
:troll:
.


Funny coming from someone who thinks progression in RPGs in bad.
And what does progression have to do with role playing?
Expertise doesnt grow on trees, you need to do shit to get better at shit.


The only part i kinda agree is the forced to do quests, and the perfect solution would be DraQ's. Just remove XP even from side Quests. If the player wants to explore or do sidequests, he will do it for in-game rewards like Money,items or Information. The only thing giving XP will be the main path quests that the played would be forced to do anyway.
Or at least only give XP for stuff player will want (like unearthing some powerful and universally useful secret via exploration) or have to do (like surviving an ambush).
Why give exp? just award levels at arbitrary points, exp is redundant in the system you propose. And the player will get it anyway at the exact pace you are setting, even more cosmetic than obsidian proposed system. Even better, just award stats, why do you even need levels if the player will be as strong as you want him to be? Levels are no longer a measure of the players might.

I agree that handplaced rewards for every individual solution would be better, except one problem. What if your so clever and creative solution was in fact too clever and creative and didn't cross the level designer's mind, so he didn't script any XP for it? The way it works now, at least all solutions will be rewarded.
But OTOH you can reap multiple rewards by being 'clever' by trying all the paths, backtracking and finishing with combat, so it evens out!
Don't you see it?
Bah!lance.
You are only hurting yourself if you dont collect as soon as you possibly can with this system. Also spreadsheets with the most efficient way to do quests, gotta love that mmo mentaility.


Fails miserably on account that your combat class levels up by talking or sneaking, it is the equivalent of a soccer player becoming better at kicking the ball by doing accounting. Fuck that noise.
Or someone becoming better at lockpicking and diplomacy by bashing goblin heads, oh wait...
Not an issue in PoE, all classes are combat focused. You are trying too hard and slipping draq.

Abstraction of doing some shit in you do, practice or study in your down time, and a stupidly small part of each build or level up, get real.
So when the warrior gets better at fighting because of sneaking and talking it's bad and makes no sense, when thief gets better at picking locks by stabbing goblins it's good and abstraction.
Yes, because the thief doesnt only get better at picking locks and because the thief is bound to pick a couple locks/disarm a couple traps (action based xp! it works again!!). Just a FYI, im not treating you like a retard, yet.

Actually, finding optimal outcome should be based on in universe factors and expected consequences, not what the designer considers to be objectively better. It's player's playthrough, not the designer's and XPs are completely arbitrary reward currency *IMPOSED* on the player by the designer.

I agree, but it also should be honest and consistent. Getting xp for a quest that makes you fight a band of trolls, but not getting it for fighting a band of trolls without the quest is neither honest nor consistent, its pretty fucking retarded. and before you say anything Locking content behind quest gates is lazy and shitty.
 
Last edited:

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,990
"Getting xp for a quest that makes you fight a band of trolls, but not getting it for fighting a band of trolls without the quest is neither honest nor consistent, its pretty fucking retarded."

GAME OVER, GAME FUKKIN' OVER.
 

Nikaido

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Sep 14, 2013
Messages
521
Location
9th Hell
"Getting xp for a quest that makes you fight a band of trolls, but not getting it for fighting a band of trolls without the quest is neither honest nor consistent, its pretty fucking retarded."

GAME OVER, GAME FUKKIN' OVER.
28 pages of one of the most stupid debate I've seen on the codex and that single sentence sums it up. There is no point arguing with idiots who deserve an OBSIFAG tag. [actually do stuff] gain no combat experience [talk to random piece of shit] 100K xp! anyone who approves that shit is just too drunk on kool aid. Get aids and die, please.

This thread is barely above rat diplomacy.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
100,015
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
sser I think you need to reconsider your evaluation of how people actually played these games. Players didn't walk off the beaten path through the forest in the Infinity Engine games to go looking for experience points. They did it because the forest was covered with fog of war and they wanted to see what was out there, hiding in it.

Uncovering the fog of war has always been the IE games' true "grinding activity". Experience points were just a thing that sort of rolled in while you were doing that.

It really is like that cliche about climbing mountains - "because it's there".
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
16,369
My personal opinion:

----------------------------------------
Chapter 1: What is XP ?
----------------------------------------

XP. What is XP exactly ? It is system in which player is rewarded with "experience" for doing something. From killing monster to repair well in village.

For a shit ton of time it was used to give player sense of progress and it was created as continuation of points in games which were almost in every game in early days. Its concept evolved into pure points needed to next level as level stands for actual progress of your character. So XP are just basically points which you earn to get to next level of character progress. You kill monster, you get points. Get enough points, something awesome happens.

It is simple, easy to understand model that gives player sense of character evolution. By getting XP your character grows and your character "grows" on you. The more experience you get means that you as player has to decide what to do next with its development as you are given tools to customize your character more.

It works well. But there are two major flaws.

----------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 2: Problems of XP design
----------------------------------------------------------
  • First, XP as XP is single variable stat that governs everything. It is basically pot in which you put all your character quests and his deeds. 500XP for killing monster = 500XP for repairing well. As you get level, XP becomes currency in visible or not visible way. Then there is progression part.Why someone who kills people is now gaining repair skill ? Or someone who kills people with wrench is gaining heavy weapons skill. XP as one pot throws any realism out of window.

  • Secondly gaining XP is entirely based on what designer think is worth XP. As braindead Volourn summed it, it creates events in which player is awarded XP entirely based on designer whim. Killing two cats in quests = 200xp out of quests 20xp or 0 in case of no xp for killing. This also is visible in XP for talking as many optional talk is rewarded or you need to choose between killing enemies = more xp but talking is faster but less xp.
Naturally we don't live in perfect world in which every game dev has infinite amount of people doing work and creating specialized events for every player choice he make, which means sacrifices, which means that those problems are not due to XP system being flaw but realism of game development.
Still it is a problem which not only creates problem on basic level (like choosing how much XP is worth this or that) but also creates situation in which player instead of focusing on events or choices he make, he fallows XP. Thus after rescuing Orc lord from raping elves people kill Orc lord for additional XP. Or i choose A route because A route means more XP for me.

------------------------------------------------
Chapter 3: Kill or not to kill
------------------------------------------------

Situation above can be solved with lack of XP for killing. With this, you won't need to kill Orc lord because it will give you nothing in return. Grinding also becomes useless, as it will give you nothing in return. So from XP for kill and no XP for kill, first one is obvious choice from solving design problem standpoint.

But at the same time it empowers "Second" mentioned by me problem of XP system. So now XP is not only looking bad as it is used as single currency but it is also completely dependent on what developer thinks is worth XP. That is bad. It forces designer to put more grunt work into balancing, quest design completely due to lack of any systemic approach to current XP standards. Which leads us to:

No XP for monster kill means designer don't need to create geometric progression ! Geometric progression design for player XP table is design AGAINST GRINDING and powergaming due to grinding effect of killing for XP. No XP for killing = no grinding = this design doesn't need to be implemented.

So now designer instead of 10 - 200 - 3000 - 10000 - 400000 xp progression table can essentially make for example 10 - 10 - 10 - 10 - 10 - 10 table and so on. Which means that developer won't need to think is some abstract way how much in XP is worth such quest and why saving farmer girl on lvl 1 gives 100xp where on lvl 20 it gives 2 000 000xp. Instead developer needs to just asset "importance" in short scale of 1-3 where 1 is mundane task and 3 is where you did something awesome. Get 10 points and you have next level.

What is more important it "fits" into actual realistic progression of character and skills of character, "progression" in natural sense is SUM of all things along journey where each part is equally important to character. It gives "importance" to low level quests. It kills quest grinding (skipping low level content to get fast to high exp quests) and since this require little to no adjustment it gives designer much more free space to be creative with it and because i used 10 it can be also 5 or 15 which due to linear skill progression would create longer, slow burner progression system or fast one without mundane fiddling with game system. So if your game is 100 hours long take 15. If your game is 20 hours long take 5. In the end you won't need to adjust game anymore than that.
So we fixed one problem. artificiality of XP reward and systematization of its achievement.
There is still first problem

---------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 4: Answer for a problem
---------------------------------------------------------

First problem as i mentioned is that XP is universal currency. Fixing soldier leg with medkit = 200xp, killing soldier = 200 xp, selling him for organs = 200 xp, selling him to slavers 200xp. All of those choices are entirely different for me as player but reward is essentially the same. And after i killed him i will now use those 200XP to learn reading skill. Because reading is connected to killing.

As you see XP in itself as unified currency is flawed. It creates disproportion of how you grow your character with his actions. The better designer is the less effect of it you see. But problem exists.

Creating instead of XP a multicurrency that will be given depending on your actions and it fits bloody well with what i said in chapter 3. Solve quest by talking ? Get personality point. Solved it by killing ? Get warrior point. Generality of this system could be as deep as you want down to every skill. Like for example repairing well = repair point. By deepening this system you can even skip it being currency and just add those points into actual skills. If you use broad points like fighter point you can use it as currency to spend on skills that are chosen to be warrior skills. Point is that this system gives answers for your actions.

-------------------------------
Chapter 5: Tuning
------------------------------

As you read it you may notice that this system is not perfect. No system is. For party based game especially.
This is where tuning and creative approach comes.

For party based game designer simply need to evaluate player characters focus. One dude is healing constantly rest of team ? He gets medic point after quest ends, other one cast non stop fire spells ? then he gets fire wizard point. You spend with one character uncovering fog of war and scouting then he will get scout point.

This also leads us to more creative approach to getting those points. For example warrior in all speech team would hardly progress so for example when you rest you have option to make your warrior "train" train action would be for example effective if you didn't have a chance to get any point.
In city there could be fighting arena in which your one dude could take part and grow his abilities. Or trainer for money earned by your charisma guys selling stuff.

Or you want to to create healer from one dude (in case of serious fight) but your party is so best that you don't need to heal anyone. Trainers, one man quests (like taking part in operation) or during quest fixing someone in barracks.
Remember. Since there is no grinding and there is finite amount of things you can do or quests there is no situation in which player would have option to powergame that system. There is also no situation in which player can basically cheat. No dual classing and then taking 9 levels after 1 quest since "XP" progression is flat.

If we go that way in therms of creativity we could add other things like for example skills/quests/abilities/perks aquired via quests, events or simply by doing something a long as time like RPing archer which hates elves so that your character after hunting ton of elves makes killing them his specialty along with recipe for elf hearth soup.

fake edit:

Holy shit that is long post.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,990
"But, that is really just poor encounter design, not so much a flaw in the system."

LOGIC. NOT. FOUND.
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
Uncovering the fog of war has always been the IE games' true "grinding activity".

That's spot on man. I dunno if they thought about that in their design but it's true. If there is time for 11th hour design decisions they should do stuff like make it so you can get "rewards" in the game where fog of war is cleared for you without you painstakingly scrubbing it by hand. Like e.g. you solve a quest for some woodsman or something and he gives you maps that clear a couple level of fog automatically. I would beeline for that shit more assiduously than any holy avenger +9
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
100,015
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The fog of war clearing shrine in Diablo 1 was the worst thing ever.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
sser I think you need to reconsider your evaluation of how people actually played these games. Players didn't walk off the beaten path through the forest in the Infinity Engine games to go looking for experience points. They did it because the forest was covered with fog of war and they wanted to see what was out there, hiding in it.

Uncovering the fog of war has always been the IE games' true "grinding activity". Experience points were just a thing that sort of rolled in while you were doing that.

It really is like that cliche about climbing mountains - "because it's there".
:hmmm:

So, tell me, what would these players, that you know so well, do if there was no fog of war?
 

crufty

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
6,383
Location
Glassworks
"But, that is a flaw in the system. Dumbass."

A system that allows for stupidity is itself stupid? I suppose slime harvesting is legitimate XP?

:hmmm:
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,910
sser I think you need to reconsider your evaluation of how people actually played these games. Players didn't walk off the beaten path through the forest in the Infinity Engine games to go looking for experience points. They did it because the forest was covered with fog of war and they wanted to see what was out there, hiding in it.

Uncovering the fog of war has always been the IE games' true "grinding activity". Experience points were just a thing that sort of rolled in while you were doing that.

It really is like that cliche about climbing mountains - "because it's there".

I really think so and also don't think so. True, you go there because it's there, but also true you go there because it may in turn help you be a better party. The very idea of knowing you won't really get anything is going to be in the back of the player's head - and that way of playing is beyond what you know, because you haven't experienced BG with this system, and thinking behaviors will remain the same is the exact kind of folly, if not hubris, Sawyer is making.

I think Sawyer thinks he knows what "degenerative" gameplay is, but doesn't realize that quest-only XP inserts an entire meta game of combat-avoidance, quest-avoidance, and general putridness. He's not fixed the problem, he's only exacerbated it and at a cost that wasn't necessary to begin with.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
100,015
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I think Sawyer thinks he knows what "degenerative" gameplay is, but doesn't realize that quest-only XP inserts an entire meta game of combat-avoidance, quest-avoidance, and general putridness. He's not fixed the problem, he's only exacerbated it and at a cost that wasn't necessary to begin with.

Again, I don't think that this will happen. You want to uncover the fog of war. In the fog of war are monsters. You have to kill them. QED.

Seeing that pretty background slowly uncover itself, lawnmowing it of hostiles, that's your reward.

Now, scripted combat avoidance, ie always taking the pacifist solution to quests instead of provoking a fight with some initially non-hostile entity, is a different matter. But I think this is a non-issue as well, since in quests players will want to roleplay the archetype they've chosen. If you're a lawful good nice guy, you're not going to let a chaotic evil bad guy get away with a bribe because "combat avoidance".
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
100,015
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
And by the way, that way of playing is hardly beyond what I know.

Here's a game that gives you nothing for disposing of opponents, and in fact gives you incredible powers of stealth to avoid them:

Thief_The_Dark_Project_boxcover.jpg


Do you know how many people play this sort of game by "exploring the entire level and blackjacking every guard"? Yes, they could easily ghost through, make a beeline for the objectives and finish the mission. But they don't. They explore, and they take 'em all down. Why? Because they're there, and the level is there, and why suffer a hostile to exist when you can take him down?
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,970
I think Sawyer thinks he knows what "degenerative" gameplay is, but doesn't realize that quest-only XP inserts an entire meta game of combat-avoidance, quest-avoidance, and general putridness. He's not fixed the problem, he's only exacerbated it and at a cost that wasn't necessary to begin with.

Again, I don't think that this will happen. You want to uncover the fog of war. In the fog of war are monsters. You have to kill them. QED.

Seeing that pretty background slowly uncover itself, lawnmowing it of hostiles, that's your reward.
Thats a shitty reward and i wouldnt do it, also i would reload if i find an encounter, waste of my time (unless it has long loading times, then i guess ill fight)

Now, scripted combat avoidance, ie always taking the pacifist solution to quests instead of provoking a fight with some initially non-hostile entity, is a different matter. But I think this is a non-issue as well, since in quests players will want to roleplay the archetype they've chosen. If you're a lawful good nice guy, you're not going to let a chaotic evil bad guy get away with a bribe because "combat avoidance".[/QUOTE]

Also is up to how much fucks you give, giving the reward to whatever you do as long as you say yes means it really doesnt make a difference, at least varying results would make you care. And if the writing is good enough to make you care, then the implementation of this system is suddenly even more redundant and retarded.

lose/lose.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,910
I just don't believe. I've seen how people play games and if fast-tracking is an option fast-tracking is what they will do. Skyrim can give you both combat-XP and the reward of exploration. A lot of people still just fast-traveled to wherever they needed to go. To me, quest-only-XP is just putting nice little bumpers up to guide the story linearly.

This is all play-style, though. I foresee a lot of bullshit meta approaches to any game that combines quest-only-XP and open worldish mechanics. No doubt.

It all ignores that it's blatantly dumb to kill a bunch of shit and learn nothing, though, and that it gives a sort of vapid, emptiness to what you are doing; and hinges a lot of the game on the dumb mechanic of your characters are retarded until they do X-THING SPECIFICALLY, which will bug me to no end.


P.S., I don't compare non-RPG games to this, or for that matter, FPS RPGs (like a level-designed Vampire, which makes much more sense utilizing a laddered system for XP-gain).
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
100,015
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
There are always bullshit meta-approaches, but if you're afraid that the lack of combat XP is suddenly going to turn you into a non-completionist who doesn't want to see the entire game and test his mettle against its many foes, then you're probably wrong.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,910
There are always bullshit meta-approaches, but if you're afraid that the lack of combat XP is suddenly going to turn you into a non-completionist who doesn't want to see the entire game and test his mettle against its many foes, then you're probably wrong.

Of course there's always bullshit.

But I like options in my games.

Quest-only XP limits those options by a great magnitude as I've already demonstrated. For example, what if I don't want to do a quest to level up? Well fuck you, you're doing the quest! Can't eat your pudding until you eat your meat because Game Design said so! What if I want to abandon a quest? Fuck you, you're doing the quest. What if I kill a bunch of shit for some side-quest, but never find the quest-giver for it? Fuck you, you learned nothing. What if I do a quest at hour-one of the game, but don't turn it until hour-twenty? Fuck you, your party is retarded until they take their Test Re:Turn in Quest. To use one of your examples, imagine you couldn't go back through and blackjack everyone in Thief until after you finished your objectives first.

It's fucking stupid and just unnecessary. Combat XP and quest XP together gives you the complete experience, plain and simple.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
100,015
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Quest-only XP limits those options by a great magnitude as I've already demonstrated. For example, what if I don't want to do a quest to level up? Well fuck you, you're doing the quest! Can't eat your pudding until you eat your meat because Game Design said so! What if I want to abandon a quest? Fuck you, you're doing the quest. What if I kill a bunch of shit for some side-quest, but never find the quest-giver for it? Fuck you, you learned nothing. What if I do a quest at hour-one of the game, but don't turn it until hour-twenty? Fuck you, your party is retarded until they take their Test Re:Turn in Quest.

This is strange complaint. The game itself is a quest - the "main quest". Generally speaking, if you don't like doing quests, you're probably playing the wrong sort of RPG.

And if you are one of those hardcore metagamers who wants to WIN at RPGs even at the expense of all narrative immersion and verisimilitude, you're not gonna be grinding XP anyway. You're gonna be "grinding story", ie, doing quests, because that's what brings you to the end of the game. Hitting the level cap doesn't give you squat. In fact, it degrades your experience by making it less challenging.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom