The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

[CyberP]

Bitch please. It's not my fault you lack design perspective.

The most notable point is this: XP rewards for exploration ensure any and all playstyles are rewarded upon discovery. So even non-lethal players are rewarded for example, which by design have a very limited tool set and no use for most of the ammo in the game.

 

[DraQ]

Bitch please. It's not my fault you lack design perspective.

The most notable point is this: XP rewards for exploration ensure any and all playstyles are rewarded upon discovery. So even non-lethal players are rewarded for example, which by design have a very limited tool set and no use for most of the ammo in the game.

So you want them to waste their time rummaging for stuff they don't need because?

 

[CyberP]

1. Who says any time is wasted? Stumble upon a secret, you expect to be rewarded for it.
2. The game can be completed with no items. Someone posted a run online. So by your logic, it's all a waste of time no matter the playstyle. No, it's empowering, rewarding, exciting. As Spector would say, its patting players on the back in regular intervals. Similar to how people want xp for combat, they look forward to seeing that xp notification, how much xp is earned, and further leveling up. It's almost addictive. XP rewards for exploration are a great substitute, or the superior method rather.

 

[DraQ]

Who says any time is wasted? Stumble upon a secret, you expect to be rewarded for it.

You have it ass backwards. You expect to be rewarded for it so you spend time looking for shit you know you won't need.

The game can be completed with no items. Someone posted a run online. So by your logic, it's all a waste of time no matter the playstyle.

Yeah, for example I can pursue sniper playstyle with neither the rifle nor ammo... oh, wait.

Similar to how people want xp for combat, they look forward to seeing that xp notification, how much xp is earned, and further leveling up.

And similar to people wanting xp for combat it only indicates people being retarded.

It's almost addictive.

Just like facebook games and slot machine simulators.
Doesn't make it good design.

XP rewards for exploration are a great substitute, or the superior method rather.

Nope. It's just as flawed for exact same reasons.

 

[CyberP]

You have it ass backwards. You expect to be rewarded for it so you spend time looking for shit you know you won't need.

Again, as said, you can complete the game with no items. also no skills. By your logic it is all a waste of time.

Nope. It's just as flawed for exact same reasons.

Exploration is a requirement by default, so there's no harm in further encouragement. Exploration is already rewarding, though it wouldn't be quite so exciting in this regard without the many xp bonuses, and again, most notably for nonlethal players sometimes a secret would result in inadequate rewards.

I wont pretend it is perfect, but it is the best implementation I've seen of an xp system and the game's many, many secret areas need them. Players were given way to much ammo as it is.

First you wanted to make a shitty mod for System Shock 2 that makes any player able to equip and use any weapons, which would completely fuck with many systems, and now you want to get rid of Deus Ex's xp rewards, which too play an important role in a number of systems and there's very little downside to their existence in the first place. You're a fag. Gameplay > simulation. As hard as LGS pushed with sim design, they never forgot this.

 

[CyberP]

You expect to be rewarded for it so you spend time looking for shit you know you won't need.

Says the one that is calling everyone else retarded...why are you crawling through vent shafts for 20xp points that you "don't need" and you aren't even certain is there?

 

[CyberP]

Anyway, it's worth noting that the xp bonuses often accompanied stuff you do "need": loclpicks, medkits, credits etc. But considering the playstyle diversity, and the sheer number of secrets, xp bonuses helped fill them with adequate rewards and for any given playstyle.
Also xp was very rarely found in vents, just for the record. We're not talking about Human Revolution here.

 

[Volrath]

Encouraging you to seek out every nook of the game, vs. encouraging you to genocide every mook of the game - which is better and why?

Why can't I do both?

 

[Raghar]

Encouraging you to seek out every nook of the game, vs. encouraging you to genocide every mook of the game - which is better and why?

Why can't I do both?

Because game doesn't have auto quest generation, and auto character generation. Do you remember how large problem that caused in Divinity:OS?

 

[Volrath]

Encouraging you to seek out every nook of the game, vs. encouraging you to genocide every mook of the game - which is better and why?

Why can't I do both?

Because game doesn't have auto quest generation, and auto character generation. Do you remember how large problem that caused in Divinity:OS?

What problem?

 

[CyberP]

Encouraging you to seek out every nook of the game, vs. encouraging you to genocide every mook of the game - which is better and why?

Why can't I do both?

In an RPG that supports multiple choice and/or playstyles, awarding XP for combat is bad as it rewards the choice that requires beating down mobs rather than a non-lethal/stealthy approach or what have you. Even worse when enemies respawn. In a game without such choices, entirely combat focused, it still is problematic because you as a designer cannot design a competent challenge and maintain balance of systems. It is difficult to design combat to require engaging tactics and such when your player could be at any xp level, and grinding is essentially an ADHD sufferer's free ticket to victory providing they mindlessly grind.

 

[CyberP]

an ADHD sufferer's free ticket to victory providing they mindlessly grind.

You as a designer should be offering them far greater entertainment value than that.

 

[DraQ]

You have it ass backwards. You expect to be rewarded for it so you spend time looking for shit you know you won't need.

Again, as said, you can complete the game with no items. also no skills. By your logic it is all a waste of time.

I'm afraid it's your logic.
You can tell by it befitting a

person.

My logic is that if your mechanics motivates actions that make no sense in the gameworld (crawling down every vent) with stuff that doesn't exist in the gameworld (XP pellets) then it has a problem.
The problem is that it sucks.

Exploration is a requirement by default

Don't be dense, you can beat DX with only a tiny fraction of possible exploration. This means that the vast majority of exploration is not a requirement, it's strictly optional.

so there's no harm in further encouragement.

So there is harm in further encouragement. Actually, the moment you start using the word "encouragement" in relation with something that clearly doesn't exist in the gameworld (because how do finding a barred room accessible only through vents makes you better at shooting or hacking? The exploration XP pellets don't really translate into anything meaningful, at least genocide encouragement in form of combat XP has some relation with combat prowess) is when you have a clear indicator that there are problems present - you use out of universe means to try and encourage different behavior than player would engage in given only the in-universe context.

The bottom line is that with a simplistic system like anything XP based you should only be rewarded for something you unambiguously want anyway. Critical path nodes are there, so is finding significant optional information, significant universally useful items or completing universally desirable optional tasks. Finding a particular vent or novelty way into a room is not.

 

[CyberP]

You have it ass backwards. You expect to be rewarded for it so you spend time looking for shit you know you won't need.

Again, as said, you can complete the game with no items. also no skills. By your logic it is all a waste of time.

I'm afraid it's your logic.
You can tell by it befitting a

person.

My logic is that if your mechanics motivates actions that make no sense in the gameworld (crawling down every vent) with stuff that doesn't exist in the gameworld (XP pellets) then it has a problem.
The problem is that it sucks.

Exploration is a requirement by default

Don't be dense, you can beat DX with only a tiny fraction of possible exploration. This means that the vast majority of exploration is not a requirement, it's strictly optional.

so there's no harm in further encouragement.

So there is harm in further encouragement. Actually, the moment you start using the word "encouragement" in relation with something that clearly doesn't exist in the gameworld (because how do finding a barred room accessible only through vents makes you better at shooting or hacking? The exploration XP pellets don't really translate into anything meaningful, at least genocide encouragement in form of combat XP has some relation with combat prowess) is when you have a clear indicator that there are problems present - you use out of universe means to try and encourage different behavior than player would engage in given only the in-universe context.

The bottom line is that with a simplistic system like anything XP based you should only be rewarded for something you unambiguously want anyway. Critical path nodes are there, so is finding significant optional information, significant universally useful items or completing universally desirable optional tasks. Finding a particular vent or novelty way into a room is not.

I told you already: you're a fag. Your arguments are in favor of simulation, completely disregarding the system's impact elsewhere.
If Ion Storm Austin were as retardedly shortsighted on the matter as you they'd have not featured a skill system at all, and the game wouldn't quite have it's renowned longevity and depth a a result.
You must always steadily walk the fine line between gameplay and sim design.

 

[DraQ]

I told you already: you're a fag. Your arguments are in favor of simulation, completely disregarding the system's impact elsewhere.

The system's impact elsewhere is that it encourages player to do shit they know will be pointless because it gives them XP.
It also encourages player to regularly bump into invisible (or more often visible, but not exactly sensible) walls you'd rather keep out of their view most of the time to maintain illusion of living, breathing world.

If Ion Storm Austin were as retardedly shortsighted on the matter as you they'd have not featured a skill system at all

The awesome skill system featuring awesome stuff like swimming, demolition, first aid or environmental training?

Because other than (some) weapon skills the system wasn't exactly good - there was little point to do anything but computers+(pistol/rifle)+[electronics+lockpicking] regardless of your playstyle and no point to push anything to master.

Still, I'd rather fix it than remove it.

 

[Ninjerk]

I told you already: you're a fag. Your arguments are in favor of simulation, completely disregarding the system's impact elsewhere.

The system's impact elsewhere is that it encourages player to do shit they know will be pointless because it gives them XP.
It also encourages player to regularly bump into invisible (or more often visible, but not exactly sensible) walls you'd rather keep out of their view most of the time to maintain illusion of living, breathing world.

If Ion Storm Austin were as retardedly shortsighted on the matter as you they'd have not featured a skill system at all

The awesome skill system featuring awesome stuff like swimming, demolition, first aid or environmental training?

Because other than (some) weapon skills the system wasn't exactly good - there was little point to do anything but computers+(pistol/rifle)+[electronics+lockpicking] regardless of your playstyle and no point to push anything to master.

Still, I'd rather fix it than remove it.

I mostly agree with you, but the legspeed+jumping aug has a bone to pick with you.

 

[DraQ]

I told you already: you're a fag. Your arguments are in favor of simulation, completely disregarding the system's impact elsewhere.

The system's impact elsewhere is that it encourages player to do shit they know will be pointless because it gives them XP.
It also encourages player to regularly bump into invisible (or more often visible, but not exactly sensible) walls you'd rather keep out of their view most of the time to maintain illusion of living, breathing world.

If Ion Storm Austin were as retardedly shortsighted on the matter as you they'd have not featured a skill system at all

The awesome skill system featuring awesome stuff like swimming, demolition, first aid or environmental training?

Because other than (some) weapon skills the system wasn't exactly good - there was little point to do anything but computers+(pistol/rifle)+[electronics+lockpicking] regardless of your playstyle and no point to push anything to master.

Still, I'd rather fix it than remove it.

I mostly agree with you, but the legspeed+jumping aug has a bone to pick with you.

It wasn't a skill and silent running was loluseless in comparison (if only because you could crouchwalk silently much faster with speed aug than you could run with silent running).

 

[Raghar]

Because game doesn't have auto quest generation, and auto character generation. Do you remember how large problem that caused in Divinity:OS?

What problem?

Well, they finished quest, then they killed the quest giver for XP. You can imagine the surprise "he wasn't useless after that quest?" later.

 

[DraQ]

As far as skills went:

Computers - must have, advanced if you must read emails and/or want to slaughter mooks with turrets, trained otherwise
Rifles - very good, advanced for recoil elimination and superior control for full auto (meaning burst headshots with AR+silencer+laser sight or assault shotgun rape) and sniping.
Pistols - decent if you want to use pistol and stealth pistol a lot
Heavy - mostly pointless unless you really need to chase people down with flamethrower/plasma, rocket weapons are situational enough for mobility not to matter
Low-Tech - mostly pointless, normal humans are easily KO'd with baton on untrained using stealth (no combat strength aug), eanbling you to save chargers for anything trickier, DT is absolute rape even on untrained without CS.
Demolition - pointless, you can disarm everything even on untrained and grenades are powerful enough as they are.
Electronics/Lockpicking - saves resources so good to pump up if you have points, otherwise pointless and doesn't gate anything.
Swimming, Environmental Training - pointless.
First Aid - only useful if you get hurt a lot, since on Realistic you get killed instead, it's pointless.

Since there is no point getting anything beyond advanced (it burns tons of XP with no discernible benefit) and since half of the skills aren't needed nor particularly helpful for doing stuff controlled by them you have plenty of points to pump up weapon skill, hacking and door openers.

 

[CyberP]

As far as skills went:

Computers - must have, advanced if you must read emails and/or want to slaughter mooks with turrets, trained otherwise
Rifles - very good, advanced for recoil elimination and superior control for full auto (meaning burst headshots with AR+silencer+laser sight or assault shotgun rape) and sniping.
Pistols - decent if you want to use pistol and stealth pistol a lot
Heavy - mostly pointless unless you really need to chase people down with flamethrower/plasma, rocket weapons are situational enough for mobility not to matter
Low-Tech - mostly pointless, normal humans are easily KO'd with baton on untrained using stealth (no combat strength aug), eanbling you to save chargers for anything trickier, DT is absolute rape even on untrained without CS.
Demolition - pointless, you can disarm everything even on untrained and grenades are powerful enough as they are.
Electronics/Lockpicking - saves resources so good to pump up if you have points, otherwise pointless and doesn't gate anything.
Swimming, Environmental Training - pointless.
First Aid - only useful if you get hurt a lot, since on Realistic you get killed instead, it's pointless.

Since there is no point getting anything beyond advanced (it burns tons of XP with no discernible benefit) and since half of the skills aren't needed nor particularly helpful for doing stuff controlled by them you have plenty of points to pump up weapon skill, hacking and door openers.

Fairly accurate analysis. I forgot how bad the skill system was vanilla. It still added quite a bit of depth though, especially with the accuracy system.

 

[CyberP]

I mostly agree with you, but the legspeed+jumping aug has a bone to pick with you.

You sure you played the original? Legspeed aug & jump aug are one and the same, and independent of the skill system.

 

[Ninjerk]

Yeah that's why I put the + in there.

 

[Volrath]

Because game doesn't have auto quest generation, and auto character generation. Do you remember how large problem that caused in Divinity:OS?

What problem?

Well, they finished quest, then they killed the quest giver for XP. You can imagine the surprise "he wasn't useless after that quest?" later.

Uhm C&C bitch?

 

[Klarion]

Violence is always the worst option and should be avoided whenever possible. I applaud this wise decision by Obsidian to not give experience for killing enemies in combat. That kind of stuff just creates psychopaths who go on killing sprees after.

 

[Weirdstuffinspace]

You're not melcar