The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

[Klarion]

You're not melcar

and you're not whoever the fuck has that same avatar, now get the fuck out of my thread, thanks.
A video game that has no XP reward for killing stuff is not a real RPG. It's more like some kind of an adventure game.

 

[imweasel]

I applaud this wise decision by Obsidian to not give experience for killing enemies in combat.

A video game that has no XP reward for killing stuff is not a real RPG.

I approve this chain of thought.

 

[Jaesun]

A video game that has no XP reward for killing stuff is not a real RPG.

Bloodlines isn't a RPG? Shadowrun Returns isn't a RPG? Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall isn't a RPG?

Well shit....

 

[Klarion]

Bloodlines isn't a RPG? Shadowrun Returns isn't a RPG? Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall isn't a RPG?

Well shit....

What's an RPG, m8? I can put on a cat suit and take a role of a cat and call that an RPG but I wouldn't be right... There're some things a game needs to have to be called an RPG. Getting XP for killing stuff is among them.

 

[bloodlover]

By your logic Diablo 2 is more of an RPG than VTMB.

 

[undecaf]

There're some things a game needs to have to be called an RPG. Getting XP for killing stuff is among them.

You only need the abstract of 'learning'. How it comes about (quests only, little bits from all kinds of activities like combat and lockpicking, or what ever) is a matter of the intended design.

What's an RPG, m8?

You know what you just started...?

 

[imweasel]

There're some things a game needs to have to be called an RPG. Getting XP for killing stuff is among them.

Combat XP is not a factor in determining if a game is an RPG or not.

If combat XP (or something similiar, e.g. valuable items) fits with the overall design or not is an entirely different matter.

 

[veevoir]

Combat XP is not a factor in determining if a game is an RPG or not.

Alone it is not, you also need lots of loot! Game without combat XP and loot is not an RPG! What is RPG, if not kill XP whoring (murder hobo everything) and inventory management simulator?

Spoiler

 

[Jaesun]

As long as you are playing a Role, that is all you need in a RPG.

 

[Rostere]

Newsflash: What "RPG" really means is just a matter of definition. But of course it is interesting to talk about how it would be useful to define a RPG.

Anyway, I think we should firstly keep in mind that distinctions between different games are not strict, so a game could be more or less a RPG. In a semantic sense Half-Life is technically a RPG because it is made clear we play the role of Gordon Freeman, who has a particular background and specific status in the game world. Guards and other scientists respond to him in accordance with this background. However, Half-Life is a very bad example of a RPG since no part of the game is really dependent on Gordon's personal capabilities. So we are not really restricted in the game to what Gordon Freeman could do as much as we are restricted to what any person could do. We play a role, but the role is trivial since it places no particular restrictions on us in contrast to other roles and we make no choices, offering us little opportunity to actually play the role of Gordon Freeman. Games which are definitely not RPGs would be chess or Tetris, since there exists no notion of a protagonist in them.

A game which is a good example of a RPG would be a game in which the player can play different roles (the simplest case being if those are essentially the same person with different characteristics, as in PS:T), a game which has high reactivity depending on which role the player chooses, and which places restrictions on the player depending on which role he/she plays. Using these criteria, you can then rate to which degree a game is a RPG.

 

[Abu Antar]

Football Manager is the best rpg series of all time.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Keith Burgun explains why Sawyerism is inelegant.



In a party-based, combat-centric RPG:

Core Mechanism = tactical use of party members and abilities to kill enemies
Core Purpose = to make your party stronger through loot and XP
Goal = level up

By marginalizing combat rewards, Sawyer divorces the Core Purpose from the Core Mechanism. Therefore the tactical combat has no essential purpose in PoE, because it doesn't directly move the player any closer to achieving the Goal. In Burgun's terms: patchwork design.

 

[Ninjerk]

Keith Burgun explains why Sawyerism is inelegant.



In a party-based, combat-centric RPG:

Core Mechanism = tactical use of party members and abilities to kill enemies
Core Purpose = to make your party stronger through loot and XP
Goal = level up

By marginalizing combat rewards, Sawyer divorces the Core Purpose from the Core Mechanism. Therefore the tactical combat has no essential purpose in PoE, because it doesn't directly move the player any closer to achieving the Goal. In Burgun's terms: patchwork design.

Having watched all the guys videos and being at this very moment knee-deep in his Glorification of Violence Essay, I have to say fuck that guy. He's obsessed with "progress" (the liberal "faux-pro" variety, I'm beginning to suspect). He claims that zombie fiction is "...the author manufacturing a scenario under which violence could be not only justifiable, but so clearly justifiable that we can even glorify it." That's so ignorant and reductive of the genre's roots and the subtext of what the zombies represent as "antagonists," I'm not sure where to even begin. His worst crime is that he is literally building a career upon declaring a bunch of game design axioms that are half-obvious, and the half that aren't are so shallow in description as to be useless. Flashing up pictures of League of Legends and Hearthstone isn't commentary.

He's pretentious as all hell, and I'll bet he's not gating all his good content behind the book covers, despite fancying himself a philosopher.

 

[AN4RCHID]

He claims that zombie fiction is "...the author manufacturing a scenario under which violence could be not only justifiable, but so clearly justifiable that we can even glorify it."

Sure, that's true. That's one of the great things about zombie movies.

 

[Roguey]

Name-search reply

Feb 7, 2015 at 6:05 AM - tuluse: as roguey has pointed out, VTMB doesn't have only quest xp
Feb 7, 2015 at 6:05 AM - tuluse: it's mostly quest xp
Feb 7, 2015 at 6:06 AM - Irenaeus: Roguey is retarded
Feb 7, 2015 at 6:06 AM - Norfleet: There's non-quest XP in VTMB? I seem to remember getting no XP for killing things.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, several quests in Bloodlines give you more xp if you choose the stealthy approach, which excessively rewards that playstyle and punishes those who'd want to fight.

 

[Jaesun]

Do you only post when you are drunk Apexeon ?

 

[Apexeon]

Do you only post when you are drunk Apexeon ?

Yes it helps me think straight.

Anyway Josh is interested in Sales. If this in your design mind you are looking at the big sellers.
POE is progressing towards them. He is not honouring BG's core mechanics and we funded his
pet project (which is to make some sort of wow like combat with dps).

Nobody cares enough about the advancement mechanics to make or break sales

Angry drunks like me care.

This is a designer who has to keep the pay checks rolling in. I expect more watered down "balanced crpgs" now. Another bait and switch. This is no BG but a worse IWD2 and I hated IWD 2 (art was good). POE meh to the art.


Instead it usually seems like most designers sit down and say, "Well what are the ability scores going to be?"
RE: Moving units: Nobody cares enough about the advancement mechanics to make or break sales. Mass Effect and Oblivion both show that you can have extremely simple (from a player perspective) advancement mechanics and as long as people enjoy the core gameplay, the apparent simplicity/non-traditional nature of the mechanics doesn't matter

 

[aleph]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, several quests in Bloodlines give you more xp if you choose the stealthy approach, which excessively rewards that playstyle and punishes those who'd want to fight.

Which however doesn't matter at all. Regardless of playstyle you get more than enough xp in Bloodlines anyway.

 

[Roguey]

Which however doesn't matter at all. Regardless of playstyle you get more than enough xp in Bloodlines anyway.

The same can be said of DX:HR but that doesn't stop a lot of people from hacking every computer and alarmpad anyway.

 

[aleph]

The same can be said of DX:HR but that doesn't stop a lot of people from hacking every computer and alarmpad anyway.

And why should it, who cares if some guy, somewhere plays to get maximum xp? Same as with Bloodlines you can do that, but you don't need to. I played DX:HR almost completely non-stealthy (so reduced xp), hacked only occasionally and still could may out all the skills I cared for.

 

[Roguey]

And why should it, who cares if some guy, somewhere plays to get maximum xp? Same as with Bloodlines you can do that, but you don't need to. I played DX:HR almost completely non-stealthy (so reduced xp), hacked only occasionally and still could may out all the skills I cared for.

A lot of them do it even though they don't enjoy it. Game designers who don't want people to engage in degenerate gameplay care.

 

[aleph]

A lot of them do it even though they don't enjoy it. Game designers who don't want people to engage in degenerate gameplay care.

And here it is again, the strawman of Sawyerism.

 

[Roguey]

And here it is again, the strawman of Sawyerism.

Nah.

Furthermore, you said yourself that Bloodlines gives you, personally, plenty of XP. Removing the the extra stealth rewards doesn't hurt your experience at all, but it does improve the game for others, ergo removing it would be the right thing to do.

 

[aleph]

Furthermore, you said yourself that Bloodlines gives you, personally, plenty of XP. Removing the the extra stealth rewards doesn't hurt your experience at all, but it does improve the game for others, ergo removing it would be the right thing to do.

You could equally say that removing extra stealth xp rewards lessens the game for power gamers since they now have one way less to power game. So, now what, eh? Maybe there is no objectively "right thing to do" in game design?

 

[Roguey]

You could equally say that removing extra stealth xp rewards lessens the game for power gamers since they now have one way less to power game. So, now what, eh? Maybe there is no objectively "right thing to do" in game design?

If it never existed, they'd never miss it.