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The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

Athelas

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Suggesting that a bestiary is going to learn a party anything. Rich. If I put on some boxing gloves, hit the bag once, have I learned all that there is to learn about boxing?
You don't get all the bestiary XP for killing a single critter, why would you think that would be the case? Your response to someone pointing out that your facts are wrong seems to be...to fabricate more wrong facts.

How is it nonsensical when having combat XP is a way around this notoriously shit mechanic in RPGs? Tactical games know it best: your guys only learn if they actually do something. You don't learn anything for just tagging along. I just gave you a middle-ground method to fix this issue and you call it 'nonsensical,' returning to the quest-only XP which is by definition completely nonsensical.
Most RPG's aren't learn-by-use. Your complaint started with 'PoE: where (...)' when what you complained about is the case for most every RPG and simultaneously isn't the case for PoE.

I'm not sure how handing XP out for segmented quests changes anything.
Because it solves the very issue you were complaining about? Quests exists in stages (find A, give A to B, etc.) and you get XP for each stage, not just at completion. In case you forgot, here's what you said two posts ago:
PoE: where you can complete 99% of a quest and learn nothing.

PoE: where a person kicked out of the party at the last moment of a quest learns nothing, but the guy who just joined to 'turn in' a quest learns everything.

PoE: where you learn more by spotting a cave than going inside and cleaning it out.
I don't recall saying the discovery XP was more significant than the bestiary and quest XP. That cave will have enemies in it and a quest attached to it.
 
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sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
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Messages
1,866,910
Suggesting that a bestiary is going to learn a party anything. Rich. If I put on some boxing gloves, hit the bag once, have I learned all that there is to learn about boxing?
You don't get all the bestiary XP for killing a single critter, why would you think that would be the case? Your response to someone pointing out that your facts are wrong seems to be...to fabricate more wrong facts.

You get the bestiary XP dump from filling out the bestiary slot. And that's it. How does this change anything I said?



Most RPG's aren't learn-by-use. Your complaint started with 'PoE: where (...)' when what you complained about is the case for most every RPG and simultaneously isn't the case for PoE.

Most RPGs aren't learn by use? What?


Because it solves the very issue you were complaining about? Quests exists in stages (find A, give A to B, etc.) and you get XP for each stage, not just as completion. In case you forgot, here's what you said two posts ago:

This does not solve either one of those issues.


PoE: where you learn more by spotting a cave than going inside and cleaning it out.
I don't recall saying the discovery XP was more significant than the bestiary and quest XP.

Wasn't even my point.
 

Athelas

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Messages
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You get the bestiary XP dump from filling out the bestiary slot. And that's it. How does this change anything I said?
You get bestiary XP for repeatedly killing monsters. Your first post claimed you only got it once ('hit the bag once').

Most RPGs aren't learn by use? What?
You tell me.

This does not solve either one of those issues.
How does it not? Explain why.

Wasn't even my point.
Then what was your point?
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
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You get the bestiary XP dump from filling out the bestiary slot. And that's it. How does this change anything I said?
You get bestiary XP for repeatedly killing monsters. Your first post claimed you only got it once ('hit the bag once').

You get the bestiary XP dump.

Once.


Most RPGs aren't learn by use? What?
You tell me.

Tell you what? Outside of PoE, I can hardly think of any RPGs that don't use a XP via doing system.

Bloodlines. That comes to mind, if I'm remembering it right. Bloodlines made some sense as the levels were segmented.

Darkest Dungeon is another. Darkest Dungeon makes the most sense as the game's focus is on the runs themselves.

These two games have something in common when it comes to mechanics and narrative.


This does not solve either one of those issues.
How does it not? Explain why.

I'm not sure what needs explaining. You learn nothing until the objective is complete.


Wasn't even my point.
Then what was your point?

That I can go into a dungeon and kill a bunch of shit and come out and 'learn' nothing.

Your assumption is that I would have gone in there with prior obligations.
 

Athelas

Arcane
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Jun 24, 2013
Messages
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You get the bestiary XP dump.

Once.
What part of 'you don't get all the bestiary XP at once' don't you understand?

I'm not sure what needs explaining. You learn nothing until the objective is complete.
What part of 'you get XP for completing parts of the quest' don't you understand?
 

Athelas

Arcane
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Messages
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Apparently I'm gonna have to repeat myself again, because as I've pointed out before, you get XP before the objective of the quest is fulfilled. How difficult is that to grasp? How else should it have been implemented? Get x amount of XP for every minute that passes after the quest is activated?
 
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sser

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Apparently I'm gonna have to repeat myself again, because as I've pointed out before, you get XP before the objective of the quest is fulfilled. How difficult is that to grasp? How else should it have been implemented? Get x amount of XP for every minute that passes after the quest is activated?

How about this for an implementation: get XP for killing things and get XP for solving things and get XP for doing things. Pretty simple.

Experience, by its nature, is an abstraction.

The idea that you learn sword swingin' by turning in a quest about solving a water crisis is just as retarded as the idea that you learn how to pick a lock by cleaving a goblin in two. That's why the more things you give XP for, the better, because in all the abstractions you can begin to make sense of character development. Not only this, but now players have a reason to do things without having prior obligations. An entire world where everything is shackled to quests and side-quests is dangerously close to a corridor shooter with windows for walls.
 

Athelas

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Messages
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The idea that you learn sword swingin' by turning in a quest about solving a water crisis is just as retarded as the idea that you learn how to pick a lock by cleaving a goblin in two.
I hope you realize these exact same issues exist in a game with combat XP? There is no difference in that regard. The only solution is separate pools for non-combat and combat XP, which isn't what we were discussing.

That's why the more things you give XP for, the better, because in all the abstractions you can begin to make sense of character development. Not only this, but now players have a reason to do things without having prior obligations.
Of course you have a prior obligation - being able to gain XP from killing stuff, even if it goes against your character development. Which isn't any less contrived than objective-based XP, and is perhaps even more contrived.

An entire world where everything is shackled to quests and side-quests is dangerously close to a corridor shooter with windows for walls.
False analogy. Objective-based XP doesn't impact your ability to do anything.
 

sser

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The idea that you learn sword swingin' by turning in a quest about solving a water crisis is just as retarded as the idea that you learn how to pick a lock by cleaving a goblin in two.
I hope you realize these exact same issues exist in a game with combat XP? There is no difference in that regard. The only solution is separate pools for non-combat and combat XP, which isn't what we were discussing.

No, I didn't realize it. I just put in that first sentence by the very same happenstance that you apparently used to not read it.


That's why the more things you give XP for, the better, because in all the abstractions you can begin to make sense of character development. Not only this, but now players have a reason to do things without having prior obligations.
Of course you have a prior obligation - being able to gain XP from killing stuff, even if it goes against your character development. Which isn't any less contrived than objective-based XP, and is perhaps even more contrived.

I don't think you know what obligation means.


An entire world where everything is shackled to quests and side-quests is dangerously close to a corridor shooter with windows for walls.
False analogy. Objective-based XP doesn't impact your ability to do anything.

There's only one primary source to advance the game but this isn't constraining. How quaint.
 

Athelas

Arcane
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Messages
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No, I didn't realize it. I just put in that first sentence by the very same happenstance that you apparently used to not read it.
What is the rationale for posting it then, if you know the same issue exists in a game with combat XP?

I don't think you know what obligation means.
I think you're arguing semantics. Why would you bring that up, or even be participating in this discussion, if kill XP didn't motivate you to do those things?

There's only one primary source to advance the game but this isn't constraining. How quaint.
No, the source can be anything, which is why the XP is tied to an objective and not to an activity (like with kill XP).
 

sser

Arcane
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No, I didn't realize it. I just put in that first sentence by the very same happenstance that you apparently used to not read it.
What is the rationale for posting it then, if you know the same issue exists in a game with combat XP?

I feel as though you didn't read what I wrote.


I don't think you know what obligation means.
I think you're arguing semantics. Why would you bring that up, or even be participating in this discussion, if kill XP didn't motivate you to do those things?

Still got that feel.


There's only one primary source to advance the game but this isn't constraining. How quaint.
No, the source can be anything, which is why the XP is tied to an objective and not to an activity (like with kill XP).

:nocountryforshitposters:
 

DraQ

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You only need the abstract of 'learning'.
I'd say you just need some way to define your character (AKA builds). Even learning is optional.

Keith Burgun explains why Sawyerism is inelegant.


In a party-based, combat-centric RPG:

Core Mechanism = tactical use of party members and abilities to kill enemies
Core Purpose = to make your party stronger through loot and XP
Goal = level up

By marginalizing combat rewards, Sawyer divorces the Core Purpose from the Core Mechanism. Therefore the tactical combat has no essential purpose in PoE, because it doesn't directly move the player any closer to achieving the Goal. In Burgun's terms: patchwork design.


God, what a dismal moron.

Unless you're derping around in some sort of arena mode the goal isn't "to level up". The goal is either to progress, or in case of sandboxes, it's left to be defined by player, but hopefully the reasonable goals are somewhat distant and require measurable progress towards them as well.

All RPGs and pretty much all sandboxes benefit from having a core made of a number of interlocking, yet individually optional mechanics and activities rather than singular one - it's part of defining trait of RPG and the defining trait of well realized sandboxes - the former have to support different possible roles adopted by the player, the latter need to support variety of possible gameplay goals.
Hell, no self respecting game with any pretense of complexity should ever adhere to the outlined, oh-so-insightfully-named "clockwork pattern". It's meant to be a game not fap simulator with single mechanics short-circuted and tied to manufactured orgasm - so much for patchwork design "antipattern" (about the only thing he got right there is that disconnected mechanics is bad, but linking can and sometimes should be realized on content rather than mechanical level).

Of course, a combat centric party game can allow greater part of its core to be dedicated to combat, but if it wants to be called an RPG it should allow player to consider different alternatives rather than funneling them towards one of them.

Hell, take a game that's far more combat centric and single-minded in terms of its intended gameplay than even the most combat centric RPGs can hope for - DOOM.

The gameplay mainly consists of running around and killing stuff with your weapons, yet you don't gain the weapons or progress based on stuff you kill, the enemies are just obstacles to your progression and both progression itself (a core reward mechanism allowing you to experience new stuff) and getting new weapons (the other core reward mechanism upping your killing potential and broadening your options) are mostly decoupled from the act of killing and it makes DOOM a far better game than it would be if you were forced to kill X imps to unlock the red door or obtain rocket launcher.

tl;dr:
stick to mobile and fb game design, brah, anything above that is and will remain way out of your league unless you get yourself a brian surgery.
:hero:


He claims that zombie fiction is "...the author manufacturing a scenario under which violence could be not only justifiable, but so clearly justifiable that we can even glorify it."
Actually, that might be the only non moronic thing he's ever said (at least concerning zombie fiction in practice).
 

DraQ

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No XP for combat works fine- in games that support non combat solutions to nearly all quests.
Like DOOM.
:troll:

Human revolution had a nice system that gave you xp for killing, for stealth, for finding alternate routes, for hacking, etc.
:neveraskedforthis:
Someone please shoot this man.

Thats a valid point, still i dislike not receiving xp for kills.
But you do receive XP for kills. The moment you achieve an objective or intermediate objective, the game meticulously sums up the XP from not just all your kills and from enemies and obstacles you cunningly tackled in any other way and gives it to you.

It even accounts for solutions you have used that the devs haven't even dreamed of - it's magic this way.
:happytrollboy:
So why not remove xp for kills once that branch of a quest is completed or make creatures / npcs related to a quest be worth 0 XP and have their XP tied into an objective.
Why couldn't they just remove XP gain from the enemies someone just stealthed past if it's so bloody important?
Exactly - why not build and balance a system only to arbitrarily overrule it at every step with elaborate scripting? :stupid:

If they do not reward combat with anything meaningful then I think most people will try to avoid it at any cost for the simple reason it's really just filler shit to get to the end goal which is either story progression or character progression or whatever. Spending resources and time killing beetles only feels good if I get something after.
DOOM must have sucked.
:martini:

Doom doesn't feature any XP or leveling whatsoever, doesn't mean we should draw conclusions from it when it comes to designing an isometric party based RPG with RTWP tactical combat.
Why? It clearly shows that well realized mechanics doesn't need half-assed artificial reward system to pull player through. It works brilliantly for games as different as DOOM and Thief, why not RPG?

Besides, following that train of thought, quests shouldn't reward XP either. I mean if they're well written and designed that should be the reward in itself, why bribe the player to complete them?
Indeed, why?
I mean player should feel free to reject a quest if it doesn't align with their goals for some reason.

If the quest can be guaranteed to always align with overarching goals, than there is no harm in doling out XPs and they can serve whatever purpose you have for them in mind (typically portraying some sort of growth).

PoE: where you can kill everything in the world and learn nothing.
That's almost philosophical.
:salute:
PoE: where exploration and discovery is unrewarded.

PoE: where that dark spot on the paper map has no value - unless a quest-giver specifically tells you it does.
What if you discover quest hooks?
(Or loot - most games that reward exploration reward it with loot or information - this includes pretty much ALL non-RPGs and decent portion of RPGs).

I'm baffled as to how anyone defends this shit. It's very obvious that a system utilizing both quest and combat XP not only makes far more sense, but also opens up way more avenues for gameplay.
But it does not, so it does not.
+M
(At least not avenues a sane person would want to see opened.)
 
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DraQ

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Tactical games know it best: your guys only learn if they actually do something. You don't learn anything for just tagging along.
Actually, learning by observation is a thing.

Learning in general is complex activity calling for complex system - you don't become better at sneaking by fighting with swords, you don't become better at diplomacy by practicing archery, killing certain type of enemy in melee probably won't teach you anything useful about killing different kinds of enemy, etc.

Assuming you actually need learning mechanics in your game (the scope requires the way for characters to get better and you can't just pick individual skills from individual sources for whatever reason) there are two ways out:

  • Code a complex system that tries to reflect how and what can characters learn in which circumstances - this certainly won't be an XP based system, it needs to go use based and possibly beyond (to reflect observation, etc.).
  • Say "fuck this shit" and make something that's simple to make and modify while also giving you good control over player's progression and is roust enough to tolerate any sort of abuse from player - this is goal XP, basically manually tying lumps of XP to arbitrary triggers (coarsely) relying on human, rather than programmed logic.
Standard kill XP system is neither here nor there - it inherits problems from both while having advantages of neither.
 

Ellef

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Works pretty well in Underrail? It's really not that hard, it's not it requires a dedicated team of artists and coders. Make quests worth less XP and make up the difference approximately with the enemies in the area, who cares if one might lead to less XP at certain stages. Choices are good, particularly when the removed option is the one used in the games that funded your project.
 

AN4RCHID

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the goal isn't "to level up". The goal is either to progress, or in case of sandboxes, it's left to be defined by player
Yeah, in fact I almost wrote "to progress", but changed it because that could easily be confused with storyfaggotry and we're talking about game mechanics. New story/world content is a reward structure in basically all games but I wouldn't consider it a part of the game mechanics. In mechanics terms, progression in a game like PoE means gaining access to new abilities and items, IE leveling and finding loot.

All RPGs and pretty much all sandboxes benefit from having a core made of a number of interlocking, yet individually optional mechanics and activities rather than singular one - it's part of defining trait of RPG and the defining trait of well realized sandboxes - the former have to support different possible roles adopted by the player, the latter need to support variety of possible gameplay goals.
This doesn't conflict with Burgun's point, except insofar as Burgun recommends one of the systems being primary. We already know this is the case in PoE.

if it wants to be called an RPG it should allow player to consider different alternatives rather than funneling them towards one of them.
Then PoE isn't a true RPG by this standard, since class roles are defined by their performance in combat and there is no alternative to a combat-ready role.

DOOM. The gameplay mainly consists of running around and killing stuff with your weapons, yet you don't gain the weapons or progress based on stuff you kill, the enemies are just obstacles to your progression and both progression itself (a core reward mechanism allowing you to experience new stuff) and getting new weapons (the other core reward mechanism upping your killing potential and broadening your options) are mostly decoupled from the act of killing and it makes DOOM a far better game than it would be if you were forced to kill X imps to unlock the red door or obtain rocket launcher.
I'd argue that the 'core mechanism' in DOOM is damage avoidance, with killing enemies being a major supporting mechanism. The purpose of those mechanics is to be able to explore the level (you're scored by % items/secrets/enemies), with the overall goal being to 'solve' the map by reaching the Exit. Given that, new guns being placed around the map is a logical reward structure and fits pretty neatly into Burgun's model - it's a direct reward for completing the 'core purpose' and it supports the core and secondary mechanics.
 

ZagorTeNej

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Messages
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Like DOOM.
:troll:

C'mon man, he obviously meant in regards to games that feature XP at all. No-combat XP system is a perfect fit for subsets of the genre where you can go through 90% of the game's content without engaging in combat, no argument there.

Not so sure about the game where (as AN4CHID already said) every class is valued by its combat effectiveness ( outside it, the difference seem to be minimal/negligent, a rogue is slightly better at doing roguey stuff than paladin) and in which I wager you'll tackle most of the game's content with combat. It (no-combat XP system) has its clear advantages (which I value) even in this case but I don't see it as the optimal solution (for this type of game) that many seem to.

Why? It clearly shows that well realized mechanics doesn't need half-assed artificial reward system to pull player through. It works brilliantly for games as different as DOOM and Thief, why not RPG?

Because people have different expectations from different genres, they're wired to expect loot and XP rewards when they prevail in combat in a combat heavy RPG (like PoE by all accounts will be). Besides, even Doom and Thief gave you other incentives to explore their levels (gold to satisfy level quota in Thief and weapons/ammo in Doom), it doesn't have to be either/or, I can enjoy a battle with a Dragon from a tactical/combat gameplay standpoint but being rewarded with suitable loot/XP after such a battle would also serve to increase my enjoyment of it.

Indeed, why?
I mean player should feel free to reject a quest if it doesn't align with their goals for some reason.

If the quest can be guaranteed to always align with overarching goals, than there is no harm in doling out XPs and they can serve whatever purpose you have for them in mind (typically portraying some sort of growth).

And that's my main issue with it, though it obviously depends to what degree is objective XP=quest XP in the final game. If kill XP encourages you to kill everyone in sight, quest only XP encourages you to do every little shitty sidequest you run into even if when it makes no sense whatsoever for your character to engage in it.
 

GrainWetski

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Oct 17, 2012
Messages
5,455
Why couldn't they just remove XP gain from the enemies someone just stealthed past if it's so bloody important?
Exactly - why not build and balance a system only to arbitrarily overrule it at every step with elaborate scripting? :stupid:

I don't want them to actually do that, but it would be much better than what they're doing now. I just want combat XP, stealth XP, quest XP, dialog XP etc.

I don't care if someone goes back and kills enemies after stealthing past them. I also don't care if Sawyer, and apparently a lot of other people, cry themselves to sleep because of retards doing that.
 

Athelas

Arcane
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Jun 24, 2013
Messages
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Then PoE isn't a true RPG by this standard, since class roles are defined by their performance in combat and there is no alternative to a combat-ready role.
This isn't actually true - attributes open up (pacifist) responses in dialogue/scripted interactions and so do skills. There is also stealth.
 

AN4RCHID

Arcane
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Jan 24, 2013
Messages
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All attributes are combat attributes in PoE. Skills are orthogonal to combat efficacy. In both cases, you're never making a choice between Combat character vs. Pacifist character, simply different flavors of mostly-combat characters.
 

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