The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

[Ninjerk]

Bullshit. The 10xp (60/6) you get from picking a lock is not going to make or break your 9000xp goal to get to level 4. Even if you pick several locks during the course of a level.

Sure, but this is also why Sawyer's point is BS. Killing some friendly NPC for 10 XP also isn't gonna to be particularly significant compared to consistent quest/boss XP rewards.

Ehhhh, I don't think this disproves Sawyer's point. It's not necessarily great design to award 1xp per kill and 10000xp per quest either. Well proportioned, steady drip xp makes sense, and big drop quest only xp makes sense, but this half-baked mix of the two isn't good. If exploration and lockpick xp were removed, I wouldn't feel the need to chase those tiny flavorless cookies. His original idea could have worked but they compromised it.

Seems like the reward for lockpicking and such ought to just be non-trivial items.

 

[Zombra]

Seems like the reward for lockpicking and such ought to just be non-trivial items.

Well, then you get into weird territory - because the game has to be designed assuming you can't pick locks, which means that locked up stuff more or less has to be trivial.

 

[Ninjerk]

Seems like the reward for lockpicking and such ought to just be non-trivial items.

Well, then you get into weird territory - because the game has to be designed assuming you can't pick locks, which means that locked up stuff more or less has to be trivial.

?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Well, then you get into weird territory - because the game has to be designed assuming you can't pick locks, which means that locked up stuff more or less has to be trivial.

Don't see why exactly, the game has to be designed to be beatable without lockpick/mechanics skill but we're talking about optional content here to reward those that invested heavily in the skill, not something that's in any way essential to beat the main game.

You didn't need Celestial Fury, Staff of Magi or Carsomyr to beat BG2 but they were still very satisfying rewards from completely optional hard set-piece fights.

 

[Zombra]

Seems like the reward for lockpicking and such ought to just be non-trivial items.

Well, then you get into weird territory - because the game has to be designed assuming you can't pick locks, which means that locked up stuff more or less has to be trivial.

?

Haha, OK. If picking a lock is required to win the game, or whatnot, then players who chose to boost other skills are fucked, no-win situation. That's definitely not desirable.

If picking locks gives the party awesome loot and Dragon Buster Swords that aren't available elsewhere, then you have the problem of essentially having to balance two different games - one for lockpickers and one for non-lockpickers. If you put dragons in the game, and Dragon Buster Swords make dragon fights trivial, but they're nearly impossible without one, you see what I mean. Which is the 'right' way to play? Design encounters with that way in mind, and fuck people who play the other way.

At the same time, if you can craft a Dragon Buster Sword, or buy one from a vendor, then you've created a situation where a lockpicker can get the Sword and xp, whereas someone who just buys one has accomplished the exact same thing using a different resource, but gets no xp for it.

You didn't need Celestial Fury, Staff of Magi or Carsomyr to beat BG2 but they were still very satisfying rewards from completely optional hard set-piece fights.

Rewards from hard fights are a different kettle of fish as all parties are expected to be able to fight.

------------------------

Note that I don't claim total comprehension of the economics at work here ... but I'm confident when I say it's weird territory. A much better solution would be to simply not have lockpick xp and let the treasure you get from it be its own reward.

 

[Ninjerk]

Seems like the reward for lockpicking and such ought to just be non-trivial items.

Well, then you get into weird territory - because the game has to be designed assuming you can't pick locks, which means that locked up stuff more or less has to be trivial.

?

Haha, OK. If picking a lock is required to win the game

Never said this

, or whatnot, then players who chose to boost other skills are fucked, no-win situation. That's definitely not desirable.

I agree which is why I didn't even come close to suggesting that, but you've got arguments to win, I guess.

If picking locks gives the party awesome loot and Dragon Buster Swords that aren't available elsewhere, then you have the problem of essentially having to balance two different games - one for lockpickers and one for non-lockpickers. If you put dragons in the game, and Dragon Buster Swords make dragon fights trivial, but they're nearly impossible without one, you see what I mean. Which is the 'right' way to play? Design encounters with that way in mind, and fuck people who play the other way.

In a room upstairs in the Black Hound, you can lockpick a chest and loot a Ring of Deflection (and one time it was some kind of Poison/Disease resistance trinket). This is a nontrivial item at this point in the game (assuming it's the Ring, which it usually has been so far), but it isn't a Dragon Buster sword or equivalent.

 

[Zombra]

Haha, OK. If picking a lock is required to win the game

Never said this

, or whatnot, then players who chose to boost other skills are fucked, no-win situation. That's definitely not desirable.

I agree which is why I didn't even come close to suggesting that, but you've got arguments to win, I guess.

Dude, relax. I'm not trying to win anything; I'm trying to illustrate my point, because you didn't understand it the first time and asked me to explain.

Being able to win the game or not is an extreme example of a nontrivial outcome.

If picking locks gives the party awesome loot and Dragon Buster Swords that aren't available elsewhere, then you have the problem of essentially having to balance two different games - one for lockpickers and one for non-lockpickers. If you put dragons in the game, and Dragon Buster Swords make dragon fights trivial, but they're nearly impossible without one, you see what I mean. Which is the 'right' way to play? Design encounters with that way in mind, and fuck people who play the other way.

In a room upstairs in the Black Hound, you can lockpick a chest and loot a Ring of Deflection (and one time it was some kind of Poison/Disease resistance trinket). This is a nontrivial item at this point in the game (assuming it's the Ring, which it usually has been so far), but it isn't a Dragon Buster sword or equivalent.

So it's down to fine tuning what is trivial and what isn't, which might be a conversation worth having; but first, let me ask again: why should a guy who invested skill points in lockpick get xp in addition to a nice item, whereas the guy who scrapes up the gp to buy one (by looting xp-less monsters, say) get the item but no xp?

To put it another way, isn't getting a nice item a good enough reward in itself?

 

[Ninjerk]

Seems like the reward for lockpicking and such ought to just be non-trivial items.

You're not even reading what I'm writing!

 

[Zombra]

You're not even reading what I'm writing!

Haha. I misread it as

Seems like the [xp] reward for lockpicking and such ought to just be [for when the player finds] non-trivial items.

Carry on

 

[Immortal]

My stash has 2000 Fine Maces and the last unique item I got was from a chest on endless paths floor 8.. This isn't enjoyable for me.

INB4 Draq posts a wall of bullshit nobody reads then when he loses the argument posts my joined date instead.

 

[Zombra]

My stash has 2000 Fine Maces and the last unique item I got was from a chest on endless paths floor 8.. This isn't enjoyable for me.

I still think the stash was a great idea - the bad idea was also having traditional loot frequency with tons of garbage everywhere to vacuum up.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Bullshit. The 10xp (60/6) you get from picking a lock is not going to make or break your 9000xp goal to get to level 4. Even if you pick several locks during the course of a level.

Sure, but this is also why Sawyer's point is BS. Killing some friendly NPC for 10 XP also isn't gonna to be particularly significant compared to consistent quest/boss XP rewards.

Ehhhh, I don't think this disproves Sawyer's point. It's not necessarily great design to award 1xp per kill and 10000xp per quest either. Well proportioned, steady drip xp makes sense, and big drop quest only xp makes sense, but this half-baked mix of the two isn't good. If exploration and lockpick xp were removed, I wouldn't feel the need to chase those tiny flavorless cookies. His original idea could have worked but they compromised it.

Small amounts of XP for kills and major XP for quests worked fine in New Vegas. You want to have some feeling of gradual progression, not just levelling up at predefined (and arbitrary) story points. Besides, even before Bestiary and lockpicking XP was a thing, Sawyer was doling out XP for minor checkpoints like walking into the trolls cave, so I don't think you can blame this on caving to the backers demands. If he had just wanted to appease the backers he could have done the uncontroversial thing and made XP the same as in Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, but this is the system that he went out of his way to defend.

 

[Zombra]

AN4RCHID

As I recall even the checkpoints were a compromise. It doesn't have to be 100% either it's totally his vision or he totally caved. What we ended up with is somewhere in between, trying to please everybody.

 

[AN4RCHID]

As I recall even the checkpoints were a compromise. It doesn't have to be 100% either it's totally his vision or he totally caved. What we ended up with is somewhere in between, trying to please everybody.

Sawyer promoted 'sub-objective' XP when he first announced that the game wouldn't have combat XP: (source)

Tim and I would rather not give XP for general killin' because it leads to a lot of weird/degenerate scenarios, but I have no problem with having quests oriented specifically around killing and receiving XP for achieving sub-objectives/the main goal.

And when they announced Bestiary, Exploration, Lock and Trap XP it was specifically for the purpose of providing a more regular reward structure than even the checkpoint system was able to deliver: (source)

We decided to add a few more ways to gain experience points to increase the regularity that XP is rewarded throughout the game. We've added minor bestiary, exploration, lock, and trap XP rewards.

I don't see any indication that they changed it in response to complaints about the lack of kill XP, and it didn't stop complaints about the lack of kill XP. Of course Sawyer is ultimately trying to make everyone happy, but this was still his call and nobody asked him to implement a system like this and many people asked him not to. I'm not a Sawyer hater or anything, I love the game and I think overall it's very well designed, but the places where it fails shouldn't be excused away as 'Sawyer would have designed the perfect system if it wasn't for those meddling backers.' That's Roguey territory.

My stash has 2000 Fine Maces and the last unique item I got was from a chest on endless paths floor 8.. This isn't enjoyable for me.

I still think the stash was a great idea - the bad idea was also having traditional loot frequency with tons of garbage everywhere to vacuum up.

The stash isn't the only problem with the economy by far. Merchants having unlimited gold is the other piece that breaks things. And then taxes from the Stronghold seem to exist for basically no reason? I really don't understand why they felt players needed a constant income in addition to unfettered loot hucking. Not that it matters much since there isn't anything really exciting to buy from any of the merchants.

 

[Zombra]

And when they announced Bestiary, Exploration, Lock and Trap XP it was specifically for the purpose of providing a more regular reward structure than even the checkpoint system was able to deliver:
I don't see any indication that they changed it in response to complaints about the lack of kill XP

Ehhhhh it seems like a logical assumption, since the complaints were all about I need candy at more frequent intervals. Why else would they have made the change?

and it didn't stop complaints about the lack of kill XP

Of course it didn't. It was a halfway measure.

Of course Sawyer is ultimately trying to make everyone happy, but this was still his call and nobody asked him to implement a system like this and many people asked him not to. I'm not a Sawyer hater or anything, I love the game and I think overall it's very well designed, but the places where it fails shouldn't be excused away as 'Sawyer would have designed the perfect system if it wasn't for those meddling backers.' That's Roguey territory.

Whether Sawyer is some kind of savant with a perfect utopian vision or not, I don't care; I still think the system originally announced would have been great if they'd stuck to it instead of watering it down. I don't worship the man, but I liked his idea. The changes made, regardless of whether they were precipitated by backer complaints, or brought on by an impartial change of heart in the ivory tower, or were secretly planned all along, make the system shaky, somewhat incoherent, and not as good as it could have been.

I still think the stash was a great idea - the bad idea was also having traditional loot frequency with tons of garbage everywhere to vacuum up.

The stash isn't the only problem with the economy by far. Merchants having unlimited gold is the other piece that breaks things. And then taxes from the Stronghold seem to exist for basically no reason? I really don't understand why they felt players needed a constant income in addition to unfettered loot hucking. Not that it matters much since there isn't anything really exciting to buy from any of the merchants.

I'm still early in the game so I really can't comment on the economy. All I can say is I'm ready for the loot bloat so I can get my damn gear enchanted up.

 

[Urthor]

Well re watering it down, whether there is XP next to it or not the Bestiary feels like a good addition to the game, it's just the widely criticised XP for traps that absolutely definitely needs to go.

There IS an argumetn for evenly spaced out XP rewards, explorer and such tbh. Explorer feels pretty valid since it's encouraging you to visit areas, and finding the initial area for explorer is an encouragement for not very well oriented players to find content they might otherwise have missed quite easily.

 

[Immortal]

My stash has 2000 Fine Maces and the last unique item I got was from a chest on endless paths floor 8.. This isn't enjoyable for me.

I still think the stash was a great idea - the bad idea was also having traditional loot frequency with tons of garbage everywhere to vacuum up.

Not really, I love a WYSWYG loot system.. I just wish the WHAT YOU SEE part was in proportion to what you were fighting.

If I am chased down by this group of grizzled assassins who are well known throughout the world and are an adventuring party themselves, I would expect them to have loot similar to my party. Unique Weapons and Boots and Shields with backstorys.. Of course the challenge should also accompany that gear.. I dont want loot piniatas.

The stash encourages us to vacuum up shit that should just be left on the ground.. The stash should only be usable for reagents and crafting components IMO.. Or not exist at all.

I hate this whole concept where because you are able to skip encounters, we now have to cater to that situation and make the encounters have boring banile shit otherwise people might be tempted to meta game when they otherwords wouldn't.. It's an illusion of choice.. You can't beat this game with a high aggressive score and some conversation skillz.. It's a nice to have but should not force the rest of the game to cater to it.

Well re watering it down, whether there is XP next to it or not the Bestiary feels like a good addition to the game, it's just the widely criticised XP for traps that absolutely definitely needs to go.

There IS an argumetn for evenly spaced out XP rewards, explorer and such tbh. Explorer feels pretty valid since it's encouraging you to visit areas, and finding the initial area for explorer is an encouragement for not very well oriented players to find content they might otherwise have missed quite easily.

Explorer encourages you to visit an area.. run from cave to cave then leave.. While trying to skip as many encounters as possible.. These reward incentives encourage you to skip the game.

Fighting Ogres is more fun when you think there is a reward or reason to do it. Otherwise it's just in the way to my next goal.

 

[Ninjerk]

My stash has 2000 Fine Maces and the last unique item I got was from a chest on endless paths floor 8.. This isn't enjoyable for me.

I still think the stash was a great idea - the bad idea was also having traditional loot frequency with tons of garbage everywhere to vacuum up.

Not really, I love a WYSWYG loot system.. I just wish the WHAT YOU SEE part was in proportion to what you were fighting.

If I am chased down by this group of grizzled assassins who are well known throughout the world and are an adventuring party themselves, I would expect them to have loot similar to my party. Unique Weapons and Boots and Shields with backstorys.. Of course the challenge should also accompany that gear.. I dont want loot piniatas.

The stash encourages us to vacuum up shit that should just be left on the ground.. The stash should only be usable for reagents and crafting components IMO.. Or not exist at all.

I hate this whole concept where because you are able to skip encounters, we now have to cater to that situation and make the encounters have boring banile shit otherwise people might be tempted to meta game when they otherwords wouldn't.. It's an illusion of choice.. You can't beat this game with a high aggressive score and some conversation skillz.. It's a nice to have but should not force the rest of the game to cater to it.

Well re watering it down, whether there is XP next to it or not the Bestiary feels like a good addition to the game, it's just the widely criticised XP for traps that absolutely definitely needs to go.

There IS an argumetn for evenly spaced out XP rewards, explorer and such tbh. Explorer feels pretty valid since it's encouraging you to visit areas, and finding the initial area for explorer is an encouragement for not very well oriented players to find content they might otherwise have missed quite easily.

Explorer encourages you to visit an area.. run from cave to cave then leave.. While trying to skip as many encounters as possible.. These reward incentives encourage you to skip the game.

Fighting Ogres is more fun when you think there is a reward or reason to do it. Otherwise it's just in the way to my next goal.

Man, what are you even talking about? Explorer XP is 10-25 points per area/subarea. You would have to explore 240-600 areas to go from level THREE to level FOUR. It's such a small amount it's fucking irrelevant as far as incentives go.

 

[Immortal]

My stash has 2000 Fine Maces and the last unique item I got was from a chest on endless paths floor 8.. This isn't enjoyable for me.

I still think the stash was a great idea - the bad idea was also having traditional loot frequency with tons of garbage everywhere to vacuum up.

Not really, I love a WYSWYG loot system.. I just wish the WHAT YOU SEE part was in proportion to what you were fighting.

If I am chased down by this group of grizzled assassins who are well known throughout the world and are an adventuring party themselves, I would expect them to have loot similar to my party. Unique Weapons and Boots and Shields with backstorys.. Of course the challenge should also accompany that gear.. I dont want loot piniatas.

The stash encourages us to vacuum up shit that should just be left on the ground.. The stash should only be usable for reagents and crafting components IMO.. Or not exist at all.

I hate this whole concept where because you are able to skip encounters, we now have to cater to that situation and make the encounters have boring banile shit otherwise people might be tempted to meta game when they otherwords wouldn't.. It's an illusion of choice.. You can't beat this game with a high aggressive score and some conversation skillz.. It's a nice to have but should not force the rest of the game to cater to it.

Well re watering it down, whether there is XP next to it or not the Bestiary feels like a good addition to the game, it's just the widely criticised XP for traps that absolutely definitely needs to go.

There IS an argumetn for evenly spaced out XP rewards, explorer and such tbh. Explorer feels pretty valid since it's encouraging you to visit areas, and finding the initial area for explorer is an encouragement for not very well oriented players to find content they might otherwise have missed quite easily.

Explorer encourages you to visit an area.. run from cave to cave then leave.. While trying to skip as many encounters as possible.. These reward incentives encourage you to skip the game.

Fighting Ogres is more fun when you think there is a reward or reason to do it. Otherwise it's just in the way to my next goal.

Man, what are you even talking about? Explorer XP is 10-25 points per area/subarea. You would have to explore 240-600 areas to go from level THREE to level FOUR. It's such a small amount it's fucking irrelevant as far as incentives go.

Not the point I was trying to make at all.. Just pointing out that it's just as "Degenerative" as combat or lock picking or whatever.. I want exploration xp but not if that means CombatXP is gone. I want experience for anything I do that requires effort at varying degree's based on the effort it took.

15 XP for finding a new area is great if 300XP is given for deating a powerful foe.

 

[Ninjerk]

Well, FWIW, I think a game that forces you to get into as much combat as it does it's very odd not to reward experience for combat.

 

[Immortal]

Well, FWIW, I think a game that forces you to get into as much combat as it does it's very odd not to reward experience for combat.

I agree with that. Objective XP can work.. It works great in Shadowrun and could definitely work in a torment like game. In a game where you have 300 zombies / dragons / xaurtips between each quest or entire wilderness areas stuffed to the brim with bullshit encounters that don't affect the story at all.. it's pretty fucking annoying.

I knew this would happen too.. I knew they couldn't deliver all those areas at the same quality as others.. Not on a 4 million budget.. that objective XP promise was crap..

 

[AN4RCHID]

Ehhhhh it seems like a logical assumption, since the complaints were all about I need candy at more frequent intervals. Why else would they have made the change?

Maybe for the same reason they made most of the changes throughout development, IE internal testing convinced them there were problems that needed fixing? I don't think the actual complaints from backers were specifically about the frequency of rewards.

The changes made, regardless of whether they were precipitated by backer complaints, or brought on by an impartial change of heart in the ivory tower, or were secretly planned all along, make the system shaky, somewhat incoherent, and not as good as it could have been.

I agree, the changes only make it worse. But I do think the original plan as described is much closer to the 'trail of bread crumbs' of XP rewards that we got in the final game than the chunky quest rewards that you're describing.

Well re watering it down, whether there is XP next to it or not the Bestiary feels like a good addition to the game, it's just the widely criticised XP for traps that absolutely definitely needs to go.

I like the Bestiary a lot, but it doesn't need XP rewards. Revealing enemy stats and flavor text is plenty rewarding. As far as exploration XP, I think it's dumb as implemented where it rewards every map from tiny shacks to massive wilderness areas and city quadrants equally. Rewarding the larger zones with XP would be okay, but I still don't think it's a great idea since walking into an area by itself isn't an accomplishment.

Not really, I love a WYSWYG loot system.. I just wish the WHAT YOU SEE part was in proportion to what you were fighting.

If I am chased down by this group of grizzled assassins who are well known throughout the world and are an adventuring party themselves, I would expect them to have loot similar to my party. Unique Weapons and Boots and Shields with backstorys.. Of course the challenge should also accompany that gear.. I dont want loot piniatas.

The stash encourages us to vacuum up shit that should just be left on the ground.. The stash should only be usable for reagents and crafting components IMO.. Or not exist at all.

I hate this whole concept where because you are able to skip encounters, we now have to cater to that situation and make the encounters have boring banile shit otherwise people might be tempted to meta game when they otherwords wouldn't.. It's an illusion of choice.. You can't beat this game with a high aggressive score and some conversation skillz.. It's a nice to have but should not force the rest of the game to cater to it.

Agreed with all this. Loot is very generic because it was designed to be chucked into the stash without a second thought. it is a direct result of Sawyer's inventory innovations. This is exactly why I got a bad feeling when they announced area looting. Of course of the apologists insisted that that was just a convenience feature that wouldn't affect the design of anything else in the game. Just like the stash, and infinigold merchants, and shared inventory. Just like the standard defense of the quest compass in other games. If your brilliant game design idea is to make something more 'convenient' by cutting out gameplay, it's probably not so brilliant.

 

[Shadenuat]

Realised when replaying the game what a bitch it is to just replay game to test new builds when you don't get enough xp from combat and have to bring that ring, find that plate mail, run chores for that boy who wants a dagger, blargh

 

[circ]

TES has the best xp system. Get xp for improving skills which actually makes sense. Xp for filling out bestiary information? Great idea. It's just xp for killing mobs called xp for filling bestiary info, that caps when you get it to 100% which is just saying hey, you're level 10, quit killing these level 1 cockroaches that give no xp - which is the way quite a few rpg's do it. Nothing original to see here, and a stupid concept.

 

[Lhynn]

So I'm playing on Path of the Damned, and small encounters are not a problem. The issue is with a few huge encounters where my party gets swarmed by tough enemies. The stupid thing is I don't even get any XP for taking these enemies down. In order to be able to kill them, I have to go find some traps or quests, grind them, and then come back, which is just fucking stupid. I can't explore the maps I'm on because I need to grind the storyline first? What sort of fucking retardation is this?

The actual point is to have a mode so tough that no one can complain that the game is too easy. Sounds like they succeeded.

Retarded comment is retarded, im playing in PotD and not finding it challenging.

Realised when replaying the game what a bitch it is to just replay game to test new builds when you don't get enough xp from combat and have to bring that ring, find that plate mail, run chores for that boy who wants a dagger, blargh

This game has 0 replayability, it is a fucking chore the first time and plain boring after that.