The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

[A horse of course]

TES has the best xp system. Get xp for improving skills which actually makes sense. Xp for filling out bestiary information? Great idea. It's just xp for killing mobs called xp for filling bestiary info, that caps when you get it to 100% which is just saying hey, you're level 10, quit killing these level 1 cockroaches that give no xp - which is the way quite a few rpg's do it. Nothing original to see here, and a stupid concept.

I was getting zero Xp for wiping out a room full of Ogres and Ogre Druids, which is just ridonkulous and creates perverse incentives combined with the fetch quest Xp blowout in Act 2.

 

[Lhynn]

It has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that sawyer was talking out of his ass. Only imbeciles would defend his design choices now.

 

[A horse of course]

Behead Josh Sawyer

 

[AN4RCHID]

TES has the best xp system. Get xp for improving skills which actually makes sense. Xp for filling out bestiary information? Great idea. It's just xp for killing mobs called xp for filling bestiary info, that caps when you get it to 100% which is just saying hey, you're level 10, quit killing these level 1 cockroaches that give no xp - which is the way quite a few rpg's do it. Nothing original to see here, and a stupid concept.

I was getting zero Xp for wiping out a room full of Ogres and Ogre Druids, which is just ridonkulous and creates perverse incentives combined with the fetch quest Xp blowout in Act 2.

The worst is the unique enemies. You're barely rewarded for defeating Cael The Silent, a fucking Dragon, one of only three Dragons in the game, but you get a massive XP reward for picking up a rock that he drops and FedExing it back to Defiance Bay. Nearly every climactic fight in the game is like this. Kill the Drake in EP? Here's a couple hundred XP. Insert three color coded plates into the corresponding holes on the next level of EP? Thousands of XP. It's like they designed it purposefully to be stupid.

 

[KK1001]

The more I think about it the worse this game gets.

Thanks Codex.

 

[Svartalf]

It is only once you deliver the rock that your adredaline rush from facing such magnificent beast tapers off; and in that single instant you come upon the realization of your tremendous feat. An influx of dopamine invades your nervous system, granting you the wisdom necessary to reach your next level of overpoweredness.

 

[Zombra]

Retarded comment is retarded, im playing in PotD and not finding it challenging.

There's a difference between stupidity and having incomplete information. Up until that point all I'd heard was people complaining that POTD was hard, which is as it should have been. Hearing now that it's still too easy for powergamers is disappointing, but not that surprising I guess. Still hoping to see an RPG someday with a hard mode so stupidly hard that not even the munchiest munchkins can hack it.

 

[Lhynn]

Retarded comment is retarded, im playing in PotD and not finding it challenging.

There's a difference between stupidity and having incomplete information. Up until that point all I'd heard was people complaining that POTD was hard, which is as it should have been. Hearing now that it's still too easy for powergamers is disappointing, but not that surprising I guess. Still hoping to see an RPG someday with a hard mode so stupidly hard that not even the munchiest munchkins can hack it.

Dude, im not powergaming shit, i just gave eder a shield.

 

[Ninjerk]

Retarded comment is retarded, im playing in PotD and not finding it challenging.

There's a difference between stupidity and having incomplete information. Up until that point all I'd heard was people complaining that POTD was hard, which is as it should have been. Hearing now that it's still too easy for powergamers is disappointing, but not that surprising I guess. Still hoping to see an RPG someday with a hard mode so stupidly hard that not even the munchiest munchkins can hack it.

Dude, im not powergaming shit, i just gave eder a shield.

 

[lurker3000]

Why would anyone want to play PotD? Just to drag out the awesome combat?

 

[Lhynn]

Why would anyone want to play PotD? Just to drag out the awesome combat?

Because i want my e-penis to grow larger, and grown larger it has, but sadly poe keeps it flacid, so that was pointless.

 

[lurker3000]

Why would anyone want to play PotD? Just to drag out the awesome combat?

Because i want my e-penis to grow larger, and grown larger it has, but sadly poe keeps it flacid, so that was pointless.

But I hear you get a steam achievement so there is that.

 

[Lhynn]

Why would anyone want to play PotD? Just to drag out the awesome combat?

Because i want my e-penis to grow larger, and grown larger it has, but sadly poe keeps it flacid, so that was pointless.

But I hear you get a steam achievement so there is that.

Not i, there are no steam achievements in the Irate Bay.

 

[sser]

I mean, it's pretty much what I expected it to be. For all the lengthy posts defending it of which I thoroughly read many, I still scratch my head at how people think this design choice is any good.

TES has the best xp system. Get xp for improving skills which actually makes sense. Xp for filling out bestiary information? Great idea. It's just xp for killing mobs called xp for filling bestiary info, that caps when you get it to 100% which is just saying hey, you're level 10, quit killing these level 1 cockroaches that give no xp - which is the way quite a few rpg's do it. Nothing original to see here, and a stupid concept.

I was getting zero Xp for wiping out a room full of Ogres and Ogre Druids, which is just ridonkulous and creates perverse incentives combined with the fetch quest Xp blowout in Act 2.

The worst is the unique enemies. You're barely rewarded for defeating Cael The Silent, a fucking Dragon, one of only three Dragons in the game, but you get a massive XP reward for picking up a rock that he drops and FedExing it back to Defiance Bay. Nearly every climactic fight in the game is like this. Kill the Drake in EP? Here's a couple hundred XP. Insert three color coded plates into the corresponding holes on the next level of EP? Thousands of XP. It's like they designed it purposefully to be stupid.

It was even worse for me...

Act 2 Spoilahzeakdfas don't read

I got zero XP for that, because Defiance Bay was already toast by the time I got around to doing that quest.

Realised when replaying the game what a bitch it is to just replay game to test new builds when you don't get enough xp from combat and have to bring that ring, find that plate mail, run chores for that boy who wants a dagger, blargh

In a game with varying XP, the player could decide to kill this monster or that one, or he could decide to kill all of them. He could also do this quest or that one; or he could do half a quest and not be worrying about turning it in to get his reward because, really, killing the monsters were good enough and he just wants to progress the story. I ditched quests all the time in the Infinity Engine games and also in the Fallouts. And I'll have allllll those options every time I play 'em.

The player in PoE has what choices, exactly? You're ultimately going to be playing at the exact same pace every playthrough.

 

[DraQ]

Seems like the reward for lockpicking and such ought to just be non-trivial items.

Well, then you get into weird territory - because the game has to be designed assuming you can't pick locks, which means that locked up stuff more or less has to be trivial.

There is no obligation to implement a skill if you have no idea how to implement it meaningfully. You can always just roll it up into another, make it into an attribute check or just make given activity not controlled by any stat, or have otherwise useful stat have a mostly cosmetic influence on it.

That said I'm pretty sure you can use lockpicking in a meaningful manner.
Still, the reward may just as well involve additional quest solutions and optional goals, with consequences. For example if you need to access some documents that are in a locked box with a guy having the key being currently out of town, lockpicking will allow you to see the documents without alerting the faction owning the documents, while taking the box with you or smashing it open will be conspicuous and may result in shit hitting the fan later on even if you were stealthy otherwise.
Another example, pick lock - get somewhere silently, eavesdrop on important conversation; barge in battering the doors down, you have a fight on your hands, which may result in attempt to exact vengeance on you later on or result in death of NPCs involved who might prove useful later on, and may actually fail to yield the desired information.

Lockpicking can also be useful purely mechanically even in a combat centric game - picture an indoor combat scenario - having a character with lockpicking may allow much more advantageous party positioning before the combat even starts, while knocking down the doors will get the enemies to react before you can position your party. Lockpicking augments stealth, both in and out of combat as it allows passing locked doors without breaking stealth.

My stash has 2000 Fine Maces and the last unique item I got was from a chest on endless paths floor 8.. This isn't enjoyable for me.

INB4 Draq posts a wall of bullshit nobody reads then when he loses the argument posts my joined date instead.

Please show on this inflatable doll where the dragon has butthurt you.

And when they announced Bestiary, Exploration, Lock and Trap XP it was specifically for the purpose of providing a more regular reward structure than even the checkpoint system was able to deliver: (source)

And thus showing everyone that he has no honor (like a woman) and is unable to pursue his vision to its logical conclusion, instead folding like a wet rag halfway through.

Of course Sawyer is ultimately trying to make everyone happy

Which wasn't a realistic goal in the first place. All he succeeded at was making himself everyone's bitch.
If all those people knew how to make a good game they wouldn't have needed Mr. Balance + crew to do it for them.

Not really, I love a WYSWYG loot system.. I just wish the WHAT YOU SEE part was in proportion to what you were fighting.

If I am chased down by this group of grizzled assassins who are well known throughout the world and are an adventuring party themselves, I would expect them to have loot similar to my party. Unique Weapons and Boots and Shields with backstorys.. Of course the challenge should also accompany that gear.. I dont want loot piniatas.

The stash encourages us to vacuum up shit that should just be left on the ground.. The stash should only be usable for reagents and crafting components IMO.. Or not exist at all.

Man, what are you even talking about? Explorer XP is 10-25 points per area/subarea. You would have to explore 240-600 areas to go from level THREE to level FOUR. It's such a small amount it's fucking irrelevant as far as incentives go.

Then there is no reason to have it in the first place.
No reason to have bestiary XP either, maybe for just for observing up to a number of different creatures of given type regardless of whether or not it resulted in combat.
Still, it should mostly provide useful info, like stats and abilities. And not just combat ones, but also ones useful in stealthing around given type of beast or manipulating it.

TES has the best xp system. Get xp for improving skills which actually makes sense. Xp for filling out bestiary information? Great idea. It's just xp for killing mobs called xp for filling bestiary info, that caps when you get it to 100% which is just saying hey, you're level 10, quit killing these level 1 cockroaches that give no xp - which is the way quite a few rpg's do it. Nothing original to see here, and a stupid concept.

TES also proves that such a good system is a bitch to get to work properly.

So, all in all the basic choice revolves around whether making a good use based system would be more work than placing all the XP triggers by hand.

Realised when replaying the game what a bitch it is to just replay game to test new builds when you don't get enough xp from combat and have to bring that ring, find that plate mail, run chores for that boy who wants a dagger, blargh

As opposed to what? Kill a bunch of bears, then kill a bunch of bears and then kill a few more bunches of bears? Any system with character development sucks for just testing new builds, nothing new under the Sun.

 

[Shadenuat]

As opposed to what? Kill a bunch of bears, then kill a bunch of bears and then kill a few more bunches of bears? Any system with character development sucks for just testing new builds, nothing new under the Sun.

Uh, no.

If PoE gave comparable to IE amount of XP for monsters, you could easily rush to MegaDungeon and just play it's combat system, since the amount of time and effort you'd spend on going through it would allow you to develop characters and test builds nicely.

Instead you have to finish 3 acts, so you would get access to all the bounty quests, which almost level up your characters from low-medium levels to level cap of 12.

Any system with character development sucks for just testing new builds

Nonsense. In a system with character development you just test how build works throughout the game, not just in it's prime.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

There's a difference between stupidity and having incomplete information. Up until that point all I'd heard was people complaining that POTD was hard, which is as it should have been. Hearing now that it's still too easy for powergamers is disappointing, but not that surprising I guess. Still hoping to see an RPG someday with a hard mode so stupidly hard that not even the munchiest munchkins can hack it.

And I'm hoping we see developers place premium on enemy composition, AI and smart abilities/spell selection instead of going the lazy way of bloated stats.

 

[DraQ]

As opposed to what? Kill a bunch of bears, then kill a bunch of bears and then kill a few more bunches of bears? Any system with character development sucks for just testing new builds, nothing new under the Sun.

Uh, no.

If PoE gave comparable to IE amount of XP for monsters, you could easily rush to MegaDungeon and just play it's combat system, since the amount of time and effort you'd spend on going through it would allow you to develop characters and test builds nicely.

If PoE had sensibly placed XP, you'd have leveled up in the mega dungeon - which is obviously called "THE mega dungeon" for a fucking reason and is not quite the same thing as player derping the wildlife for XP (or crafting ingredients, for that matter) - just the same on XP triggers aimied at much higher level characters, with added benefit of not necessarily having to kill everything in your way for game to acknowledge your tackling the challenge (so for example you could conserve your resources by avoiding trash fight).

Of course, this would require sensible placement of XP triggers, sensible enemy and encounter design (most of the time if you can run past shit with no consequences beyond a benny hill chase it's bad design, the enemies meant to stop you are meant to stop you, just running past shouldn't work) and sensible resources management (ammo, limited inventory, etc.).

No kill XP isn't to blame here.

 

[Shadenuat]

Or

you could just do unsensible thing and give xp for monsters and bosses you have to fight through *anyway* in a *mega dungeon* and it would also work

unsensibly

XP triggers

hammering nails with microscope

With PoE's stealth system those would work poorly imo

 

[AN4RCHID]

There's a difference between stupidity and having incomplete information. Up until that point all I'd heard was people complaining that POTD was hard, which is as it should have been. Hearing now that it's still too easy for powergamers is disappointing, but not that surprising I guess. Still hoping to see an RPG someday with a hard mode so stupidly hard that not even the munchiest munchkins can hack it.

And I'm hoping we see developers place premium on enemy composition, AI and smart abilities/spell selection instead of going the lazy way of bloated stats.

I like the way PoE does Hard mode in theory: whole different encounters instead of just turning up the HP. The problem seems to be that there just isn't enough high level content, so no matter what the difficulty is, you're going to outlevel it in the first few hours and the game never really catches up. The beginning of the game is plenty challenging on Hard, and so are the rare fights that are tuned for higher level parties like the final boss and some of the bounties. If they had a full dungeon or a few levels of Od Nua that was tuned to those levels, I don't think anyone would be complaining about the rest of the content being too easy.

edit: they should also pull back on the XP rewards for low level content. Since quests reward similar amounts of XP through the whole game, you're encouraged to grind out stuff that's way below your level instead of tackling the appropriate level stuff. The XP inflation curve needs to be quite a bit steeper.

 

[DraQ]

XP triggers

hammering nails with microscope

Beats hammering nails with your dick.

For starters, kill XP based system is a massive disincentive for not just quest but also area design that goes beyond a corridor or a tree.

Want alternative routes with alternative challenges? Bam, problem.
Assuming player will sensibly only choose one of the routes (let's say player has every reason to believe there will be no loot, only resource attrition)? Player who backtracks will be overleveled and rewarded for failing to manage resources.
Assume player will backtrack? Player who goes right through will be underleveled, also, why make alternative routes then? - just make a corridor.

Meanwhile with XP triggers you just slap XP reward where the paths reconverge and move to the next thing.

 

[Zombra]

There's a difference between stupidity and having incomplete information. Up until that point all I'd heard was people complaining that POTD was hard, which is as it should have been. Hearing now that it's still too easy for powergamers is disappointing, but not that surprising I guess. Still hoping to see an RPG someday with a hard mode so stupidly hard that not even the munchiest munchkins can hack it.

And I'm hoping we see developers place premium on enemy composition, AI and smart abilities/spell selection instead of going the lazy way of bloated stats.

Eh, either way works for me as long as I never again have to see a complaint from a munchkin about how every game is too easy.

 

[Shadenuat]

Assuming player will sensibly only choose one of the routes (let's say player has every reason to believe there will be no loot, only resource attrition)?

 

[Scruffy]

if you won't give me XP for killing monsters, but are going to fill the game with trash combat, then do this: instead of xp until i'm 100% in the bestiary, make it so every time i kill a certain amount of monster X, i get a bonus damage against them, because i "know" them better and i know their weaknesses and tactics and weak points etc. So by the time i have to kill the millionth xaurip, at least they'll go down with two hits and i can move on.

 

[AN4RCHID]

New Vegas sort of did that with perks that unlock after you've killed a certain number of enemies. It was fine, but once you kill that many enemies you were usually levelled to a point that it didn't make a big difference.

Player who backtracks will be overleveled and rewarded for failing to manage resources.
Assume player will backtrack? Player who goes right through will be underleveled, also, why make alternative routes then? - just make a corridor.

So make routes mutually exclusive and lock them after one has been chosen.