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The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

Athelas

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All attributes are combat attributes in PoE. Skills are orthogonal to combat efficacy.
Both attributes and skills have combat uses and non-combat uses.

In both cases, you're never making a choice between Combat character vs. Pacifist character, simply different flavors of mostly-combat characters.
You are making a choice - you can't max all attributes and skills. There is a quest in the backer beta where you need a certain amount invested in an attribute (Resolve) to be able to lie to an NPC convincingly - if you don't, the quest typically ends with a fight.
 

prodigydancer

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It's funny how combat XP is such a holy cow. Why can't you people just admit it's a pointless mechanic in and of itself? It isn't necessary for character advancement and it serves no other purpose... except grinding. But grinding isn't possible in games where enemies don't respawn and is severely limited in games where combat XP is subject to diminishing returns. Besides, grinding is about as anti-RP as possible because it's 100% metagame.

DOOM did suck.
Wikipedia said:
As of December 2014, the game still garners about 100 online players any given night.

What does one game matter?
 
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AN4RCHID

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You are making a choice - you can't max all attributes and skills. There is a quest in the backer beta where you need a certain amount invested in an attribute (Resolve) to be able to lie to an NPC convincingly - if you don't, the quest typically ends with a fight.
Of course you're making a choice, but not between combat and pacifism, because there are no specifically pacifist/diplomatic attributes. I'm sure MIG will also allow players to bypass fights at some point in the game, like having a high small gun skill in FO:NV occasionally unlocked a diplo option, but obviously a character with high MIG/guns is not a pacifist role.

It's funny how combat XP is such a holy cow. Why can't you people just admit it's a pointless mechanic in and of itself? It isn't necessary for character advancement and it serves no other purpose... except grinding. But grinding isn't possible in games where enemies don't respawn and is severely limited in games where combat XP is subject to diminishing returns. Besides, grinding is about as anti-RP as possible because it's 100% metagame.
:nocountryforshitposters:
 
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DraQ

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the goal isn't "to level up". The goal is either to progress, or in case of sandboxes, it's left to be defined by player
Yeah, in fact I almost wrote "to progress", but changed it because that could easily be confused with storyfaggotry and we're talking about game mechanics. New story/world content is a reward structure in basically all games but I wouldn't consider it a part of the game mechanics.
It's a part of what motivates player. Player doesn't want to be bored, experiencing new stuff helps with that.

In mechanics terms, progression in a game like PoE means gaining access to new abilities and items, IE leveling and finding loot.
And since new loot doesn't magically sprout out of your body just because you killed a lot of shit, new levels don't necessarily need to as well.

Goal XP is basically devs' way of saying "I have a good enough idea and control of what individual player's experience will look like that I can decide what the major accomplishments will be".

It's basically yet another layer of:
Small <-------------> Big
Hand-made <-------------> Procedural
Static <-------------> Dynamic
...
Goal XP <--------------> Use-Based

Where stuff in the left column synergizes with stuff in the left column, and stuff in the right column synergizes with stuff in the right column.

This doesn't conflict with Burgun's point, except insofar as Burgun recommends one of the systems being primary.
Well, stating that in an RPG/any sandbox *NONE* of the systems should be primary kind of conflicts with statement that one of the systems should always be primary.

That's why I suggested he sticks to mobile/FB gaming - he obviously can't wrap his head around anything bigger and more complex than that.

I'd even argue that short-circuited and tightly coupled action-reward mechanics makes for bad games.
Short action->reward cycle just can't accommodate much gameplay complexity and diversity, while tight coupling makes performing particular action a nondecision - and I'd argue that all but simplest games are basically decision making simulators if dig deep enough, with varying amounts of what's basically interface mastery thrown in (can be 0).
Kill->get XP is such a short circuit that renders the decision of whether to kill moot in large amount of cases.

Similarly, take DX:HR and it's "praised" (by some) XP system - whether or not to take down a hostile is a non-decision (of course, preferably nonlethally, preferably by double takedown), whether to hack something is a non-decision (obviously) and so on.

Such short cycles basically amount to masturbation.

I'd argue that the 'core mechanism' in DOOM is damage avoidance, with killing enemies being a major supporting mechanism. The purpose of those mechanics is to be able to explore the level (you're scored by % items/secrets/enemies), with the overall goal being to 'solve' the map by reaching the Exit. Given that, new guns being placed around the map is a logical reward structure and fits pretty neatly into Burgun's model - it's a direct reward for completing the 'core purpose' and it supports the core and secondary mechanics.
Pretty much the same summary can work for an RPG.
Damage avoidance or mitigation is paramount because otherwise you die which prevents you from completing your goals, while reward structure can be tied to game's spatial and (in this case) narrative structure (quests).

No-combat XP system is a perfect fit for subsets of the genre where you can go through 90% of the game's content without engaging in combat, no argument there.

Not so sure about the game where (as AN4CHID already said) every class is valued by its combat effectiveness ( outside it, the difference seem to be minimal/negligent, a rogue is slightly better at doing roguey stuff than paladin) and in which I wager you'll tackle most of the game's content with combat.
Why if it's combat agnostic?

Because people have different expectations from different genres, they're wired to expect loot and XP rewards when they prevail in combat in a combat heavy RPG (like PoE by all accounts will be). Besides, even Doom and Thief gave you other incentives to explore their levels (gold to satisfy level quota in Thief and weapons/ammo in Doom), it doesn't have to be either/or, I can enjoy a battle with a Dragon from a tactical/combat gameplay standpoint but being rewarded with suitable loot/XP after such a battle would also serve to increase my enjoyment of it.
Fuck this shit.

Is PS:T a bad RPG because it defies so many cRPG expectations?
No.

Thrashing expectations is about the only way to create something new.
And that's my main issue with it, though it obviously depends to what degree is objective XP=quest XP in the final game. If kill XP encourages you to kill everyone in sight, quest only XP encourages you to do every little shitty sidequest you run into even if when it makes no sense whatsoever for your character to engage in it.
And that's why Obsidian should go all the way with it and ask what quests/goals should yield XP to begin with.
They probably won't but their system is still far superior to kill XP while remaining robust and lightweight.




Why couldn't they just remove XP gain from the enemies someone just stealthed past if it's so bloody important?
Exactly - why not build and balance a system only to arbitrarily overrule it at every step with elaborate scripting? :stupid:

I don't want them to actually do that, but it would be much better than what they're doing now. I just want combat XP, stealth XP, quest XP, dialog XP etc.
And I want a donut.
:M

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Of course you're making a choice, but not between combat and pacifism, because there are no specifically pacifist/diplomatic attributes.
Why should it even matter? We're talking pacifism on individual quest or even encounter basis, not dedicated rat diplomacy builds.
 

AN4RCHID

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Well I have now put about 15 hours into Pillars, and the XP system is just as annoying as I suspected it would be. I get XP every time I pick a lock, which is something I rarely want or need to do, but not for clearing a tough encounter, which is something I want and need to do all the time in this game. I get XP for discovering every new map, so I end up poking my head in every door to every rundown house in Defiance Bay on my way to my goal, because that's necessary in this game in order to maintain a good party level. After I cleared Temple of Eothas, I think I got XP somewhere during that experience, but I couldn't even tell you when or for what. It's just so goddamn arbitrary. Maybe the bestiary will give you some XP for this kill, likely not. In order to level up, I don't have any clear idea of what would be an efficient way to do that, besides talking to NPCs and hoping to stumble onto the XP jackpot. And on the other hand, things like the Mega Dungeon have no obvious purpose when you're not being consistently rewarded. I spent a good chunk of of time clearing out the second level, and as far as I remember, got no XP reward. So when I want to level up and have to choose between another level of Od Nua and some boring fetch quest in Defiance Bay, the no-brainer path of least resistance is the boring fetch because I can be fairly certain that I'll be rewarded for that and it'll probably be easier too. I'm still working on the more fun option of Od Nua, but it's just a fucking annoying and unnecessary change to the formula.

And it's not a big deal; I'm still basically playing the same way I would have been, but that's kind of the point: the only major difference is that one system feels familiar and simple, the other is arbitrary and seems to reward everything except the thing that I'm spending 90% of my mental energy throughout the game trying to do well. I have a hard time believing that anyone honestly prefers Pillars system.

Draq said:
Why should it even matter? We're talking pacifism on individual quest or even encounter basis, not dedicated rat diplomacy builds.
I was talking about attributes and skills there.

Draq said:
Well, stating that in an RPG/any sandbox *NONE* of the systems should be primary kind of conflicts with statement that one of the systems should always be primary.
Regardless, specifically talking about PoE, it is undeniably a game that was designed to have combat as the primary system.

Draq said:
And since new loot doesn't magically sprout out of your body just because you killed a lot of shit, new levels don't necessarily need to as well.
But you do consistently get loot from kills. The problem is, in PoE the economy gets inflated so fast due to the stronghold, the stash, and infinigold merchants, that money is almost not a reward in this game. I just hawked the contents of my stash on some fruit stand guy for 10,000GP lol. I literally can't spend it faster than I collect it, even having stronghold additions in progress constantly.
 

roshan

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So I'm playing on Path of the Damned, and small encounters are not a problem. The issue is with a few huge encounters where my party gets swarmed by tough enemies. The stupid thing is I don't even get any XP for taking these enemies down. In order to be able to kill them, I have to go find some traps or quests, grind them, and then come back, which is just fucking stupid. I can't explore the maps I'm on because I need to grind the storyline first? What sort of fucking retardation is this?
 

Zombra

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So I'm playing on Path of the Damned, and small encounters are not a problem. The issue is with a few huge encounters where my party gets swarmed by tough enemies. The stupid thing is I don't even get any XP for taking these enemies down. In order to be able to kill them, I have to go find some traps or quests, grind them, and then come back, which is just fucking stupid. I can't explore the maps I'm on because I need to grind the storyline first? What sort of fucking retardation is this?
The actual point is to have a mode so tough that no one can complain that the game is too easy. Sounds like they succeeded.
 

Immortal

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Well I have now put about 15 hours into Pillars, and the XP system is just as annoying as I suspected it would be. I get XP every time I pick a lock, which is something I rarely want or need to do, but not for clearing a tough encounter, which is something I want and need to do all the time in this game. I get XP for discovering every new map, so I end up poking my head in every door to every rundown house in Defiance Bay on my way to my goal, because that's necessary in this game in order to maintain a good party level. After I cleared Temple of Eothas, I think I got XP somewhere during that experience, but I couldn't even tell you when or for what. It's just so goddamn arbitrary. Maybe the bestiary will give you some XP for this kill, likely not. In order to level up, I don't have any clear idea of what would be an efficient way to do that, besides talking to NPCs and hoping to stumble onto the XP jackpot. And on the other hand, things like the Mega Dungeon have no obvious purpose when you're not being consistently rewarded. I spent a good chunk of of time clearing out the second level, and as far as I remember, got no XP reward. So when I want to level up and have to choose between another level of Od Nua and some boring fetch quest in Defiance Bay, the no-brainer path of least resistance is the boring fetch because I can be fairly certain that I'll be rewarded for that and it'll probably be easier too. I'm still working on the more fun option of Od Nua, but it's just a fucking annoying and unnecessary change to the formula.

And it's not a big deal; I'm still basically playing the same way I would have been, but that's kind of the point: the only major difference is that one system feels familiar and simple, the other is arbitrary and seems to reward everything except the thing that I'm spending 90% of my mental energy throughout the game trying to do well. I have a hard time believing that anyone honestly prefers Pillars system.

Draq said:
Why should it even matter? We're talking pacifism on individual quest or even encounter basis, not dedicated rat diplomacy builds.
I was talking about attributes and skills there.

Draq said:
Well, stating that in an RPG/any sandbox *NONE* of the systems should be primary kind of conflicts with statement that one of the systems should always be primary.
Regardless, specifically talking about PoE, it is undeniably a game that was designed to have combat as the primary system.

Draq said:
And since new loot doesn't magically sprout out of your body just because you killed a lot of shit, new levels don't necessarily need to as well.
But you do consistently get loot from kills. The problem is, in PoE the economy gets inflated so fast due to the stronghold, the stash, and infinigold merchants, that money is almost not a reward in this game. I just hawked the contents of my stash on some fruit stand guy for 10,000GP lol. I literally can't spend it faster than I collect it, even having stronghold additions in progress constantly.


Oh Yea.. I was gonna write a huge essay on how Removing Combat XP (Sorry giving limited XP) has done nothing but move the goal posts and just feels weird.

There is a certain boss on paths of nua or whatever on the really low floors that really can punch your shit in on hard. It's a huge encounter, takes all the cheese and skills I could muster to win (without off screen spell kiting.. which is another dandy little thing you can abuse) and after all that I got.. Nothing.

Fast Forward

I am walking through a meadow of flowers (150xp) and Durnance or whatever has a conversation.. cool.. I talk to him and he proceeds to berate me about his inner turmoil and his past, Bam, 2000xp. 2000 Fucking Xp.. Then I talked to him again to follow up with what he said, Another 2000 xp..

What? This is solving degenerative gameplay? I lockpick everything that isn't nailed down and I rotate companion conversations instead of overcoming hard challenges.

Bravo Josh

[Offtopic]
P.s. Another huge beef I have is the auto generated loot and the samey crap you get. You can tell Josh really didn't want players to feel obligated to kill anything so they all drop the same useless gibblets and swords. There are no unique feeling weapons or special things to find unless it's off a "IM A BAWS" type NPC..

Gone are the days of slaying some crazed warrior in the woods, finding a super powerful sword, equipping it, then realizing it's cursed.. It really hurts the atmosphere of the game.. Mah Feels
[/offtopic]

tl;dr - If I write a mod for this game, the first one I do will be a DeSawyerfication mod that makes wizards hard and rebalances xp rewards.. This shit is Re-tarded. Oh and fix the fucking itemization.
 
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Sunsetspawn

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What? This is solving degenerative gameplay? I lockpick everything that isn't nailed down...
Ironic considering this exact thing was mentioned by Josh as an example of degenerate gameplay in Human Revolution (technically hacking, but whatever, I hacked anything and everything I could in that game)
 

Ninjerk

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I'd like to direct some of your attention to this thread so we can lock down most/all of the locations where XP can be gotten freely for solo playthroughs and the like.
 

Immortal

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What? This is solving degenerative gameplay? I lockpick everything that isn't nailed down...
Ironic considering this exact thing was mentioned by Josh as an example of degenerate gameplay in Human Revolution (technically hacking, but whatever, I hacked anything and everything I could in that game)

It's only degenerative game play when another designer does it. I can see the interviews now...

Kotaku: Why the lock pick xp? Did you feel this was necessary?

JESawyer: I was against it the whole time.. however the backers wanted combat xp so instead of giving them what they wanted and admitting I was not delivering a successor to the EE games, I hacked in some quick fixes 2 months before release. The bestiary and lock xp was all their fault..

1TVWQNP.png
 

Carrion

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I'm only a few hours into the game, but it doesn't really sound like the issue would be that the game doesn't give combat XP, but that it gives it for other similarly inane stuff. You don't feel like you have to kill every enemy out there, but instead you'll want to enter every house, pick every lock and so on. And then there's the stash, which allows you to carry around an unlimited amount of loot so that you might want to kill that random wolf for its pelt after all (which is still a more valid reason for killing it than XP but of course completely fucks up the economy). The problem isn't that they removed combat XP, the problem is that they didn't go all the way with that same philosophy.

Also, if XP is the only incentive you have for exploring a dungeon, there's something terribly wrong about the game's dungeon design, and adding XP for combat isn't going to fix anything.
 

DraQ

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I get XP every time I pick a lock
:balance: is not a learning animal, then.
Lockpicking XP is as much solution-specific XP as kill XP and subject to the same kind of degenerate gameplay.
Keeping lockpicking XP in after ditching kill XP is just moronic.

I get XP for discovering every new map, so I end up poking my head in every door to every rundown house in Defiance Bay on my way to my goal
Exploration XP is also something I criticized (using the example of original DX and DX:HR).
So is quest XP for majority of sidequests.

All in all it seems like cargo cult design - they internalized that kill XP is bad, but failed to make even a cursory effort to attempt understanding why and what else follows from that.
It's like trying to teach someone addition and having them fail unless you have already walked the through given case.
It's a condition typically referred to as "retardation".

And it's not a big deal; I'm still basically playing the same way I would have been, but that's kind of the point: the only major difference is that one system feels familiar and simple, the other is arbitrary and seems to reward everything except the thing that I'm spending 90% of my mental energy throughout the game trying to do well. I have a hard time believing that anyone honestly prefers Pillars system.
Meh.

There are two approaches to character development - one based on simulation and one based on rewarding player for stuff they should be doing.
Not understanding the latter is the problem with the failing party, not the approach itself.

You ask the question "should player always attempt X if opportunity arises, regardless of circumstances?" and give XP if the answer is "YES", don't if it's a "NO":
  • "should player always attempt killing stuff if opportunity (stuff to be killed) arises, regardless of circumstances?" NO
  • "should player always attempt picking locks if opportunity (locks to be picked) arises, regardless of circumstances?" NO
  • "should player always attempt doing quests if opportunity (quests to be done) arises, regardless of circumstances?" NO
  • "should player always attempt checking every area if opportunity (areas to be visited) arises, regardless of circumstances?" NO
  • "should player always attempt doing MQ stages if opportunity (MQ stage to be completed) arises, regardless of circumstances?" YES (it's the point of the game)
  • "should player always attempt doing side, but obligatory content (such as surviving an ambush) if opportunity (ambush to be survived) arises, regardless of circumstances?" YES (it's do or die)
  • "should player always attempt doing side content for which there is no possible reason to avoid it (find an optional but useful information about antagonist, complete optional goal for the MQ) if opportunity arises, regardless of circumstances?" YES (there is no possible reason to avoid it)
Additionally, a free pinch of simulationism never hurts, so XP rewards should be doled out after it becomes clear that player has tackled some challenge - for example picking a mac guffin guarded by a foozle, OR arriving to non-foozle location with mac guffin in the inventory for the first time (exiting foozle's dungeon, but accounting for non-standard exits), OR (the least preferable option) handing the mac guffin to the quest giver - and there shouldn't be separate XP rewards unless they are separated by a likely challenge.

The only exception to that rule is XP reward from an outside source (an NPC, an ancient wall of engraved text, etc.).

I was talking about attributes and skills there.
Yeah, but having all builds be combat builds and having no viable way to avoid all the combat on a single playthrough doesn't invalidate potential desirability of non-combat solution available to particular builds on per situation basis.

Draq said:
And since new loot doesn't magically sprout out of your body just because you killed a lot of shit, new levels don't necessarily need to as well.
But you do consistently get loot from kills.
Not consistently. You get loot from kills that had nice stuff.
 

Athelas

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Well I have now put about 15 hours into Pillars, and the XP system is just as annoying as I suspected it would be. I get XP every time I pick a lock, which is something I rarely want or need to do, but not for clearing a tough encounter, which is something I want and need to do all the time in this game. I get XP for discovering every new map, so I end up poking my head in every door to every rundown house in Defiance Bay on my way to my goal, because that's necessary in this game in order to maintain a good party level.
To be fair, lockpicking and map discovery (and bestiary and trap XP) were added specifically to satisfy the people who were upset by the lack of combat XP in the first few backer beta builds. The original system was quest only XP.
 

Zombra

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Well I have now put about 15 hours into Pillars, and the XP system is just as annoying as I suspected it would be. I get XP every time I pick a lock, which is something I rarely want or need to do, but not for clearing a tough encounter, which is something I want and need to do all the time in this game. I get XP for discovering every new map, so I end up poking my head in every door to every rundown house in Defiance Bay on my way to my goal, because that's necessary in this game in order to maintain a good party level.
Bullshit. The 10xp (60/6) you get from picking a lock is not going to make or break your 9000xp goal to get to level 4. Even if you pick several locks during the course of a level.

To be fair, lockpicking and map discovery (and bestiary and trap XP) were added specifically to satisfy the people who were upset by the lack of combat XP in the first few backer beta builds. The original system was quest only XP.
Yeah. They should have stuck to their guns. As DraQ says, going halfway is the worst of both worlds. The sense of scarcity induced by finite beastiary/kill xp leads to AN4RCHID's paranoia about needing to scavenge every scrap. I feel the need too - when I see a lock, I get excited because I found a new source of xp, while at the same time I recognize intellectually that the amount rewarded is trivial. They're these tiny cookies you can barely taste, but one still feels compelled to savor each one since cookies are an endangered species. If you don't mind some awful mixing of metaphors.
 

DraQ

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To be fair, lockpicking and map discovery (and bestiary and trap XP) were added specifically to satisfy the people who were upset by the lack of combat XP in the first few backer beta builds. The original system was quest only XP.
So, not only did they backtrack despite their original idea being sound, but they also went with something just as bad on metagame level but orders of magnitude harder to justify than kill XP (lockpicking XP).
:whatisfun:
That's so limp-dicked that they probably couldn't get it up even in microgravity.
:nofunallowed:
 

DraQ

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I'm only a few hours into the game, but it doesn't really sound like the issue would be that the game doesn't give combat XP, but that it gives it for other similarly inane stuff. You don't feel like you have to kill every enemy out there, but instead you'll want to enter every house, pick every lock and so on. And then there's the stash, which allows you to carry around an unlimited amount of loot so that you might want to kill that random wolf for its pelt after all (which is still a more valid reason for killing it than XP but of course completely fucks up the economy). The problem isn't that they removed combat XP, the problem is that they didn't go all the way with that same philosophy.

Also, if XP is the only incentive you have for exploring a dungeon, there's something terribly wrong about the game's dungeon design, and adding XP for combat isn't going to fix anything.
:bro:
 

Perkel

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yeah unlimited stash completely fucks up economy. Looting that Dyrford hidden temple will get you something like 20k from all that fine robes and weapons essentially upgrading 90% of your fort.
 

AN4RCHID

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God, this is even more arbitrary than I could have possibly imagined. Minor Od Nua levels 1 - 8 spoilers:

The Drake is this big set piece boss fight, it was by far the toughest enemy I had fought in the game up to that point in the game, and I got a measly 240 XP. I cleared out the Fampyr floor for that head vampire guy, which was some pretty tough fights and seemed to be a quest, and I got nothing. Meanwhile there's one staircase I walked down that must have triggered Kana's quest or The Master Below because it gave me 2000+ XP for doing nothing. :retarded:

Bullshit. The 10xp (60/6) you get from picking a lock is not going to make or break your 9000xp goal to get to level 4. Even if you pick several locks during the course of a level.
Sure, but this is also why Sawyer's point is BS. Killing some friendly NPC for 10 XP also isn't gonna to be particularly significant compared to consistent quest/boss XP rewards. And there are some random things in PoE that are significant sources of XP, such as meeting Pallegina which can net you ~4000 XP or more within about 15 minutes with no combat. It's just that in PoE that stuff is totally reliant on meta knowledge instead of consistent, predictable reward structure.

yeah unlimited stash completely fucks up economy. Looting that Dyrford hidden temple will get you something like 20k from all that fine robes and weapons essentially upgrading 90% of your fort.
lol, I made over 30K from one transaction recently. The economy is beyond broken. This also means that loot is mostly trash, since you're expected to horde everything in the stash and it would upset the :balance: if enemies had actual good items.
 
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Athelas

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God, this is even more arbitrary than I could have possibly imagined. Minor Od Nua levels 1 - 8 spoilers:

The Drake is this big set piece boss fight, it was by far the toughest enemy I had fought in the game up to that point in the game, and I got a measly 240 XP. I cleared out the Fampyr floor for that head vampire guy, and I got nothing. Meanwhile there's one staircase I walked down that must have triggered Kana's quest or The Master Below because it gave me 2000+ XP for doing nothing. :retarded:


Sure, but this is also why Sawyer's point is BS. Killing some friendly NPC for 10 XP also isn't gonna to be particularly significant compared to consistent quest/boss XP rewards.
You typically got thousands of XP from the quest-related NPC's in BG2. Anyway, I'm pretty sure it was more about the XP from groups of enemies/monsters rather than single NPC's.

That being said, the current half-assed implementation of XP should definitely be criticized.
 

AN4RCHID

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Well, I'm not saying the BG's XP implementation were so great or couldn't be improved on. Ideally, quest giving NPCs would be tied into the faction mechanics so you wouldn't want to kill friendlies.
 
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I still remember people speculating about how every tough enemy would naturally have some sort of quest or task associated with them to ensure that winning challenging battles would still yield experience. Or how removing combat xp would lead to a much smoother level progression and better tuned xp rewards in all other areas.
 

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Bullshit. The 10xp (60/6) you get from picking a lock is not going to make or break your 9000xp goal to get to level 4. Even if you pick several locks during the course of a level.
Sure, but this is also why Sawyer's point is BS. Killing some friendly NPC for 10 XP also isn't gonna to be particularly significant compared to consistent quest/boss XP rewards.
Ehhhh, I don't think this disproves Sawyer's point. It's not necessarily great design to award 1xp per kill and 10000xp per quest either. Well proportioned, steady drip xp makes sense, and big drop quest only xp makes sense, but this half-baked mix of the two isn't good. If exploration and lockpick xp were removed, I wouldn't feel the need to chase those tiny flavorless cookies. His original idea could have worked but they compromised it.
 

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