The XP for Combat Megathread! DISCUSS!

[Dorateen]

In other words doing the stuff that is the experience of the quest itself.

You appear to be more interested in making sure the use of the English word "experience" is accurate than whether or not the game design makes sense.

Not particularly. While I am fond of the term Experience Points, and its familiar abbreviation XP, you could call it Level Up Points just fine. Although it does sound more wieldy, doesn't have that classic ring to it.

But, sure, I still think characters should get Level Up Points for the actions they perform in the course adventuring... defeating enemies, placing traps, solving a puzzle through magic.

 

[Telengard]

Quest xp rewards have always been silly, for lots of reasons. Not the least of which being they give you huge rewards for stuff that other people in the game world do every day. Ooh, I walked to a new city, gain 250xp. Under such a system, just about everyone else in the world of any age should be a way higher level then your young-uns, except you're special. But, that's just usual silliness.

However, quest-only xp does have its own real issues. To name but three.

• Eliminates the viability of the lie response. Normally, lying to complete a quest and gain an item as the reward is an attractive option. But lying and getting an xp reward is iffy. One did not do anything, learn anything, or solve anything. One just told a convincing whopper. Earning xp for that not only weakens the value of xp, it weakens the value placed on effort in the game. A dev could, of course, instead put in both an item reward and an xp reward, and then deny liars the xp. But now you're undermining the value of the lie's reward, making it a much less attractive option.
  
• Weakens the ability to provide sub-optimal solutions. Take, for instance, the classic two ways into a keep - the front gate and the secret door. The secret door bypasses a lot of content (sub-optimal), but allows direct access to the goal. When a sub-optimal solution is available, the player must weigh the consequences of each path. But, when both roads provide equal value, the only choice the player makes is how much content they want to see. Which encourages a dev to provide only one path into the keep with multiple solutions along that path, since there is no longer any point to making the extra effort to make a sub-optimal path. So, gate only but with multiple ways to pass that gate. Thus encouraging linear level design.
  
• Gives content cheesers (not combat cheesers) a double reward instead of a single. Normally, a content cheeser is rewarded by being able to bypass content through the effort of their cheesing. That is in itself a reward. If they cheese content and then get a full xp reward for doing so, then they get two rewards, where everyone playing the game as it's supposed to be played only gets one. So, for instance, running to a later-game town, pickpocketing a ring of teleportation, and (unplanned by the dev), then going back and skipping over entire early content map areas through teleportation becomes the most effective and beneficial solution to all areas, since the cheesers are doubly rewarded for their cheesy behavior. They get the item, the progress, and all the xp, instead of only the item and the progress that they would normally get. That, along with the satisfaction of figuring out a way to cheese.

 

[baturinsky]

Then they shouldn't be doing it. And if an RPG happens to be combat heavy, or combat-centric, then perhaps play another game?

You can as well skip xp-rewarded quest if your roleplay require it.

Ideally, game should let player define his character's, well, character, and game should give xp for doing things that fits this character. I think some games even kind of do it. Sims 3 and Sims 4 certainly do this. Maybe Quest for Glory too. M&M is giving more XP for doing respective classes' job quests.

 

[Branm]

Wait a minute PoE doesnt award combat exp....wtf

 

[Zombra]

Ideally, game should let player define his character's, well, character, and game should give xp for doing things that fits this character. I think some games even kind of do it. Sims 3 and Sims 4 certainly do this. Maybe Quest for Glory too. M&M is giving more XP for doing respective classes' job quests.

Another RPG that does it is ... wait for it ...

Spoiler

Skyrim

Now before you get defensive, I'm not slamming it. The game in question does it brilliantly in my opinion. There are many valid complaints about that game, but the advancement system is beautifully executed, much moreso than previous games in that series.

Other games you forgot - Wasteland, Jagged Alliance series.

 

[Dorateen]

Ideally, game should let player define his character's, well, character, and game should give xp for doing things that fits this character.

So if I play a fighter, the game should give me XP for fighting and for defeating enemies, yes? Then we are in agreement.

 

[Roguey]

I popped in this thread to see if anyone was complaining about the lack of kill xp in Dead State but of course no one's playing it, just more crying over Pillars of Excellence because 30 pages wasn't enough.

 

[Lhynn]

Ideally, game should let player define his character's, well, character, and game should give xp for doing things that fits this character. I think some games even kind of do it. Sims 3 and Sims 4 certainly do this. Maybe Quest for Glory too. M&M is giving more XP for doing respective classes' job quests.

Another RPG that does it is ... wait for it ...
Skyrim

Now before you get defensive, I'm not slamming it. The game in question does it brilliantly in my opinion. There are many valid complaints about that game, but the advancement system is beautifully executed, much moreso than previous games in that series.

It does XP fine, but character advancement is complete shit, you always end up with a ______ (enter your preferred method to murder) that can open locks and wear an armor (doesnt matter if light or heavy).

 

[Zombra]

It does XP fine, but character advancement is complete shit, you always end up with a ______ (enter your preferred method to murder) that can open locks and wear an armor (doesnt matter if light or heavy).

Only if you refuse to do what baturinsky said: define a character and then play that character. If you don't have a character in mind, then sure, the path of least resistance will give you a gobbledigook jack-o-t because some skills give you more instant gratificaction rewards than others. But focusing on a type paid off. It's OK if you never tried it because everyone is supposed to hate that game anyway. I never had a character with those as my top three skills.

 

[Lhynn]

It does XP fine, but character advancement is complete shit, you always end up with a ______ (enter your preferred method to murder) that can open locks and wear an armor (doesnt matter if light or heavy).

Only if you refuse to do what baturinsky said: define a character and then play that character. If you don't have a character in mind, then sure, the path of least resistance will give you a gobbledigook jack-o-t because some skills give you more instant gratificaction rewards than others. But focusing on a type paid off. It's OK if you never tried it because everyone is supposed to hate that game anyway. I never had a character with those as my top three skills.

What the fuck am i reading? so you will purposely not loot some containers because of your character concept? Because that is ALL there is to it.

 

[Zombra]

What the fuck am i reading? so you will purposely not loot some containers because of your character concept? Because that is ALL there is to it.

Nope. There's way more depth and freedom there than you are apparently aware of.

 

[Lhynn]

What the fuck am i reading? so you will purposely not loot some containers because of your character concept? Because that is ALL there is to it.

Nope. There's way more depth and freedom there than you are apparently aware of.

Nope, theres the illusion of it, but its really as simple as i just explained to you. you pick your weapon, your armor and open locks to get the goodies.

 

[baturinsky]

Especially those three Thief/Mage/Warrior signstones in Skyrim is good example of "define the role" concept. Though, being Skyrim, even that role definition is reluctant and can be changed at any moment.

 

[Lilura]

On this page, Skyrim has been described as "brilliant" in regards to character definition with a "beautifully executed advancement system".

*dimension doors out of thread*

 

[Zombra]

Nope, theres the illusion of it, but its really as simple as i just explained to you. you pick your weapon, your armor and open locks to get the goodies.

If that is true, then the experiences I had in that game did not happen. They did, so it is not.

Your argument is "only x happens". I saw y and z happen with my own eyes. Unless I am flat out lying, you are wrong. Only x happens for you because you are the type of person who only awards XP for killing things in the P&P game you run. You never answered my question, "How would your players behave if you offered them equal XP for diplomacy?" In the other game mentioned above, you put a lockpick in one hand and a stab in the other and the rest of the game was W + M1 because it never occurred to you to try anything else. Not everyone is like you. Clearly, you can't perceive anything outside of the little box you live in. I should have remembered from last time that there's no point in talking to you; it's like trying to describe colors to a snake who only sees heat patterns and can't understand English anyway. I sincerely hope you have a fun life in that little box though. ♥

 

[Lhynn]

Nope, theres the illusion of it, but its really as simple as i just explained to you. you pick your weapon, your armor and open locks to get the goodies.

If that is true, then the experiences I had in that game did not happen. They did, so it is not.

Your argument is "only x happens". I saw y and z happen with my own eyes. Unless I am flat out lying, you are wrong. Only x happens for you because you are the type of person who only awards XP for killing things in the P&P game you run. You never answered my question, "How would your players behave if you offered them equal XP for diplomacy?" In that game, you put a lockpick in one hand and a stab in the other and the rest of the game was W + M1 because it never occurred to you to try something else. Clearly, you can't perceive anything outside of the little box you live in. I should have remembered from last time that there's no point in talking to you; it's like trying to describe colors to a snake who only sees heat patterns and can't understand English anyway. I sincerely hope you have a fun life in that little box though. ♥

Youve yet to give me an example, you often are full of shit, today is no exception.

 

[Zombra]

Youve yet to give me an example, you often are full of shit, today is no exception.

I played a mage to about level 40 who didn't pick locks, didn't wear armor, didn't use a weapon and for whom Destruction was never in his top 3 skills.

 

[Lhynn]

Youve yet to give me an example, you often are full of shit, today is no exception.

I played a mage to about level 40 who didn't pick locks, didn't wear armor, didn't use a weapon and for whom Destruction was never in his top 3 skills.

Vanilla?

 

[Zombra]

Vanilla?

I added mods as time wore on, like anyone sane. Why the fuck would anyone play vanilla Skyrim? Nothing that changed the advancement system though.

 

[Lhynn]

Vanilla?

I added mods as time wore on, like anyone sane. Why the fuck would anyone play vanilla Skyrim? Nothing that changed the advancement system though.

It is all the difference in the world, skyre and requiem force you to pick and stick with your choices, even if theoretically being anything is viable. Spell packs add depth to magic, combat overhauls add depth to your main mean of interaction with the world, etc.

With SkyRe speechcraft has more than 3 uses in the whole fucking game, it plays a factor in your shouts and your skill handing companions. with AP it becomes even more useful, as a way to semi realistically get favor from the citizens of a hold without having to slay some giant or work as pest control in some draurgh ridden ruins.

You said it yourself, who the fuck plays vanilla? The game itself has good parts, but character advancement is FAR from being an interesting point in skyrim.

 

[Zombra]

It is all the difference in the world, skyre and requiem force you to pick and stick with your choices, even if theoretically being anything is viable. Spell packs add depth to magic, combat overhauls add depth to your main mean of interaction with the world, etc.

With SkyRe speechcraft has more than 3 uses in the whole fucking game, it plays a factor in your shouts and your skill handing companions. with AP it becomes even more useful, as a way to semi realistically get favor from the citizens of a hold without having to slay some giant or work as pest control in some draurgh ridden ruins.

That all sounds interesting ... nothing to do with the conversation ... but interesting. I may check those out ... who am I kidding, I'm sick of Skyrim

You said it yourself, who the fuck plays vanilla? The game itself has good parts, but character advancement is FAR from being an interesting point in skyrim.

Again, it's OK if you found it so, but clearly you didn't explore its possibilities like some of us did.

 

[Akratus]

How about fuck going all the way with combat xp, or not having it at all? A middle ground: gaining xp only if the enemy is more skilled or equally skilled compared to your character.

 

[Telengard]

(I'm gonna be a bad boy. 'Cause it's than kinda day)


YE OLDEN DAYS
What do we do?: Kill things!

What's our job?: Killing things!

What are we rewarded for?: Killing things!

What are we gonna do when we see you?: Fuck you up!


THE NEW AGE
What do we do?: So, like, we go around and, like, talk to people and stuff. And they, like, want us to do things for them. And, see, we do those things. It's kinda like we're those Greek Heroes ya hear about sometimes. (Like Perseus and Hercules.) Yah, like them! But, like, don't get the wrong idea. We don't, like, go around and do great deeds 'n stuff. We're more into doing things like finding your gram's ring that you lost, or, like, tracking down your missing sister.

What's our job?: It's kind of, ya know, hard to explain. See, we're kinda like a combo Lost & Found/PI Firm. (You mean, you do odd jobs for people.) Yeah! Like that. We go around and, right, take jobs from people, and, like, sometimes the jobs are important, and sometimes they're not. But, like, we try to do them all. See, that's, like, professionalism. Right?

What are we rewarded for?: Well, see, when we go around and do stuff, we, like, get rewarded for it. (You mean, you get rewarded for accomplishing deeds.) No no. It's not like that. See, like, we don't get rewarded for finding your gram's ring you lost. We get rewarded when we tell you we found your gram's lost ring. (So, you get rewarded for helping people.) Well, sorta. But not really. It's like, see, we can get rewarded for helping people, but, like, we can also get rewarded if we just tell them we helped them. (So, if they think you helped them, then you get more powerful.) That's it! Now ya got it!

What are we gonna do when we see you?: Well, that depends. I mean, like, first we'd talk to you, and, like, find out how you're doin'. If you, like, got any problems we could help ya out with. Or, like, if you've got a boo boo we could help ya fix. We might not do what ya ask, even if we say we would, keep in mind, but, like, we'd think about it real hard. But, like, if you're a meanie, then...and it's obvious you're a meanie, then...and you do something that shows you're gonna keep being mean to people, and, like, are not willing to reform yourself, well, then, we'd have to fight you. But we'd be real sorry about it afters.

 

[Norfleet]

So if I play a fighter, the game should give me XP for fighting and for defeating enemies, yes? Then we are in agreement.

Well, obviously, if you are a fighter, this is how you get XP. But are you a fighter? If you're avoiding combats to reach your goals, I argue that you're not a FIGHTER anymore, since you've picked up a package of fight-avoiding skills as well. You're a guy who can fight, but avoids doing so when it is not required. If you get your XP anyway, well, that's fine. Do we even still call them "Fighters" anymore? That seems like a class-ist stereotype, much like why we no longer have "Thieves".

It does XP fine, but character advancement is complete shit, you always end up with a ______ (enter your preferred method to murder) that can open locks and wear an armor (doesnt matter if light or heavy).

I don't see the problem with this. As an adventurer, you need to solve the generalized set of problems associated with your career: dealing with enemies, getting loot, and keeping your insides inside you. How you do it, is up to you. Obviously, there's a wide variety of how you accomplish "dealing with enemies", a somewhat more limited variety in how you get loot, and your options for keeping your insides on your inside are generally some kind of armor, unless you choose to simply disdain this aspect and run around in a leather thong, in which case you're going to have to up your "killing enemies" game.

 

[Dorateen]

So if I play a fighter, the game should give me XP for fighting and for defeating enemies, yes? Then we are in agreement.

Well, obviously, if you are a fighter, this is how you get XP. But are you a fighter? If you're avoiding combats to reach your goals, I argue that you're not a FIGHTER anymore, since you've picked up a package of fight-avoiding skills as well. You're a guy who can fight, but avoids doing so when it is not required. If you get your XP anyway, well, that's fine. Do we even still call them "Fighters" anymore? That seems like a class-ist stereotype, much like why we no longer have "Thieves".

What are you going on about? This thread and discussion was posted in the context of Pillars of Eternity, where the designers made the controversial decision to remove XP for combat. I raised the point that if I am playing a Fighter, it is perfectly appropriate role-playing to fight, and should be rewarded as such. Your first sentence acknowledges this, but it is not what PoE is doing.

Who said anything about a fighter avoiding combats? In the previous posts I made on the subject, I allowed for other options (usually a good thing) for characters to devise alternative methods to solving an encounter, and they should get XP for those actions accordingly.

Yes, we still call them Fighters, as does Pillars of Eternity coming out in 2015. So I guess it's not such an archaic concept after all. I still prefer Thieves to rogues. Robbers or Burglars would be acceptable as well.