Game News Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky's new game at Obsidian is being published by Take-Two Interactive

[flabbyjack]

Maybe Obsidian could sue Bethsoft for the rights to Fallout. That's basically how Bethsoft stole them from Interplay.

Actually, if I recall correctly, Bethsoft ultimately bought the FO IP for a low sum after a string of failed lawsuits.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

So another Numa Numa style project in the pipeline from Obsidian cucks. With all them buzzwords and reference to past glory in the marketing campaign.

But this time it is a 3rd person Action RPG. What could go wrong?

 

[Jaesun]

the "most successful game" ever launched by the company. However, there was no specific figure supporting what Hines meant by "most successful."

That literally means nothing... Of note they do NOT mention specific sales numbers, just PR speak. THAT is when you can tell a game did not do so well as hoped.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

The first rule of the corporate world is to cover your ass. F:NV continues to resonate within the fanbase to such an extent that it's damaging to Bethesda's brand. That's a time bomb on your hands if you're an executive.

Sadly, I don’t think they feel the need to do any ass covering whatsoever. As much love as F:NV gets on certain corners of the web, F4 racked up $750 million in sales on day one—more than New Vegas made in its first five years. F4 has now sold more copies than Skyrim. (https://www.google.com/amp/www.tech...s-now-bethesdas-most-successful-game-ever.htm)

Who cares if it was a critical disappointment with those numbers? Far from covering their asses the guys at Bethesda are probably jumping all over themselves to take as much credit as possible internally.

Still, there’s no sound business reason not to give Obsidian another crack. No way are they worried about anyone stealing the brand away from them in the minds of consumers because of a few online forums.

If Obsidian own the brand in the mind of the consumer, they can basically hold Zenimax hostage. A billion dollar franchise would be dependent on 3rd party entity.

How exactly would they do that? This line of argument seems kind of squishy and symbolic to me.

More important, even if I concede your point that fans clamoring for Obsidian to make the next title could force Bethesda’s hand, it’s still beside the point. That’s because Obsidian absolutely does not own the brand in the minds of most consumers. Those of us who prefer New Vegas are a niche audience, even if, in this one rare case, the critics and journalists actually agree with us. As far as the casuals are concerned—and they’re the vast bulk of the marketplace—Bethesda is Fallout. No matter how many clowns on Twitter ask Sawyer or MCA when New Vegas 2 is coming out, it won’t threaten Bethesda, although I’m sure it pisses them off.

Jaesun, Hines may be blowing smoke, but F4 was a massive commercial success for its first day sales alone. I wish Zenimax was publicly traded so I could dig into the numbers (and go to the annual shareholder meetings to bitch at Todd Howard), but with a private firm it’s hard to say why they disclose what they do. Maybe post day-1 sales were very disappointing; it still sold more in preorders and on the first day than F3 or New Vegas had in their entire runs up to that point.

All of which is just to say that, alas, Bethesda has every reason to believe they’ve found the right formula of post apocalyptic FPS/hiking sim with very light RPG elements. Worst of all, they’re right! Shooters are way more popular than RPGs.

This is why I have so much affection for Obsidian and Larian and even InXile: they are handicapping themselves commercially to make games in the genre they love. And it’s why I believe in Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky.

 

[Blaine]

Now if only Obsidian could manage to rid itself of its biggest handicap, we'd be in business.

If Josh has mind control powers, which seems fairly likely at this juncture, he could at least have the decency to hypnotize me into believing his game mechanics are good and that I enjoy them. Apparently, Infinitron and a few others were all he could spare the brainpower to mindfuck. It was a tactical decision, since Infinitron is the Codex newsbot, after all.

Zionbot loves to accuse me of not keeping up with every scrap of gaming-related news, which is absolutely true, but I do have a very long memory. Anyone remember Josh's Fallout tabletop RPG rulebook? I sure do. Have a look: http://falloutpnp.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page

He's fancied himself a postmodern Gary Gygax for a mess of years. Only the dead can know peace from this evil.

 

[Davaris]

The first rule of the corporate world is to cover your ass. F:NV continues to resonate within the fanbase to such an extent that it's damaging to Bethesda's brand. That's a time bomb on your hands if you're an executive.

Sadly, I don’t think they feel the need to do any ass covering whatsoever. As much love as F:NV gets on certain corners of the web, F4 racked up $750 million in sales on day one—more than New Vegas made in its first five years. F4 has now sold more copies than Skyrim. (https://www.google.com/amp/www.tech...s-now-bethesdas-most-successful-game-ever.htm)

Who cares if it was a critical disappointment with those numbers? Far from covering their asses the guys at Bethesda are probably jumping all over themselves to take as much credit as possible internally.

Still, there’s no sound business reason not to give Obsidian another crack. No way are they worried about anyone stealing the brand away from them in the minds of consumers because of a few online forums.

If Obsidian own the brand in the mind of the consumer, they can basically hold Zenimax hostage. A billion dollar franchise would be dependent on 3rd party entity.

How exactly would they do that? This line of argument seems kind of squishy and symbolic to me.

More important, even if I concede your point that fans clamoring for Obsidian to make the next title could force Bethesda’s hand, it’s still beside the point. That’s because Obsidian absolutely does not own the brand in the minds of most consumers. Those of us who prefer New Vegas are a niche audience, even if, in this one rare case, the critics and journalists actually agree with us. As far as the casuals are concerned—and they’re the vast bulk of the marketplace—Bethesda is Fallout. No matter how many clowns on Twitter ask Sawyer or MCA when New Vegas 2 is coming out, it won’t threaten Bethesda, although I’m sure it pisses them off.

Jaesun, Hines may be blowing smoke, but F4 was a massive commercial success for its first day sales alone. I wish Zenimax was publicly traded so I could dig into the numbers (and go to the annual shareholder meetings to bitch at Todd Howard), but with a private firm it’s hard to say why they disclose what they do. Maybe post day-1 sales were very disappointing; it still sold more in preorders and on the first day than F3 or New Vegas had in their entire runs up to that point.

All of which is just to say that, alas, Bethesda has every reason to believe they’ve found the right formula of post apocalyptic FPS/hiking sim with very light RPG elements. Worst of all, they’re right! Shooters are way more popular than RPGs.

This is why I have so much affection for Obsidian and Larian and even InXile: they are handicapping themselves commercially to make games in the genre they love. And it’s why I believe in Tim Cain and Leonard Boyarsky.

These numbers don't mean much, unless they disclose how much they spend on marketing. I have heard of albums that were a smash hit for their time, but the artists were left in debt, because so much was spent on marketing. In Hollywood I understand the rule of thumb is if a movie doesn't take in double what it cost to make, it is a financial disaster. So what is the rule for AAA games? I don't want to hear how much money they took in, I want to see the ratio.

And even if some of these AAA games do make big money, they are part of a much larger investment portfolio. Some of the games in these portfolios make it big, they are the ones that make up for the more numerous flops. Those are the real numbers I want to see.

 

[Trashos]

Loose-lipped Jason Schreier spilled the beans (and then deleted when he realized he shouldn't have).

Wow. I mean, everyone always suspected that this was the case, but it is still surprising to see the suspicion proved correct. I guess this explains the direction they took with FO4. They tried to avoid comparisons as much as possible. Well. All the money in the world won't wash away the shame for your inadequacies, I guess.

Anyway. One of the reasons FO4 sold so good is exactly because of NV. An excellent product *partially* means that your next shitty one will initially sell as if it were good. Lots of such examples in the gaming industry. The day1 purchases reinforce this, although that is also good marketing of course. At any rate, it wasn't long before reality kicked in even for casual crowds and everyone stopped considering FO4 to be GOTY material.

 

[Blaine]

These numbers don't mean much, unless they disclose how much they spend on marketing. I have heard of albums that were a smash hit for their time, but the artists were left in debt, because so much was spent on marketing. In Hollywood I understand the rule of thumb is if a movie doesn't take in double what it cost to make, it is a financial disaster. So what is the rule for AAA games? I don't want to hear how much money they took in, I want to see the ratio.

And even if some of these AAA games do make big money, they are part of a much larger investment portfolio. Some of the games in these portfolios make it big, they are the ones that make up for the more numerous flops. Those are the real numbers I want to see.

Yeah, it's pretty funny when retards point to profits squeaking just past the production budget as proof that some shitpile wasn't a complete failure, totally forgetting the cost of marketing and certain other insignificant expectations such as actually turning a real profit. If they don't turn a significant profit, all they're doing is paying the production staff and actors. That's fine for the staff and actors (unless the shitpile sinks the actors' careers), but not so much for the suits and pedophiles-in-chief.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Anyway. One of the reasons FO4 sold so good is exactly because of NV

And you think NV sold well because it was so good, rather than because FO3 sold millions before it and Bethesda put millions in advertising it and most people thought and still think is a Bethesda game, right?

 

[azimuth]

In fact, Avellone and Sawyer praised the shit out of Fallout 3's success in marketing materials for New Vegas.

 

[Trashos]

And you think NV sold well because it was so good, rather than because FO3 sold millions before it and Bethesda put millions in advertising it and most people thought and still think is a Bethesda game, right?

Of course, FO3 interest affected positively NV sales, that's exactly the chain I am describing. Not because FO3 was good, but it was successful anyway. I didn't claim that it is the only effect (I did mention marketing), and I can't quantify it. It is just a pattern that I have observed over and over in different industries (gaming, music, books, movies, hardware etc). FNV is considered a classic in many circles, not just here, and being both successful and respected (for reasons other than success) is an entirely different league of being.

FO4 lost all its cred outside the action-gamer circles. Thinking back at it, it is heart-warming how it often lost to Witcher 3, a much superior product, in even casual polls. It will be very interesting to see how this affects FO5, and Bethesda's marketing strategy when it comes around.

I do understand that the Bethesda marketing team is extremely competent, btw.

 

[Roguey]

I do understand that the Bethesda marketing team is extremely competent, btw.

Not after Wolf 2 they're not. What a mess that was.

 

[Nano]

I do understand that the Bethesda marketing team is extremely competent, btw.

Not after Wolf 2 they're not. What a mess that was.

And Prey. And Evil Within 2. Seems to me that marketing is no longer a pro for having Bethesda as your publisher.

 

[Roguey]

And Prey. And Evil Within 2.

Was there anything polarizing or obnoxious about the marketing there? It seems to me that Prey didn't do so well because the immersive sim fad waned and Evil Within 2 struggles to reconcile mid/late-00s survival horror action and modern trends (e.g. crafting, larger levels).

 

[Fairfax]

And Prey. And Evil Within 2.

Was there anything polarizing or obnoxious about the marketing there? It seems to me that Prey didn't do so well because the immersive sim fad waned and Evil Within 2 struggles to reconcile mid/late-00s survival horror action and modern trends (e.g. crafting, larger levels).

I don't think Prey suffered from some sort of immersive sim fatigue, it had a lot of things going against it:

It's effectively a new IP named after another game, but it doesn't resemble that game at all, and to make it worse, the cancelled sequel to that game (with a lot of fuckery behind that) looked more interesting.
The marketing didn't even push it as an immersive sim. The trailers were all action-heavy with cheesy lines and little of what people praised about the game.
Zenimax's review policy hurt the game's exposure right before launch. They tried to replace that with a demo, but the PC didn't get it and it wasn't very well received.
The game came out with performance issues and relatively common save corruption, the worst bug a game can possibly have.

Overall I thought it had much worse marketing than Wolfenstein 2. The controversy probably helped Wolfenstein 2, since it gave it a lot of free exposure when people weren't even talking about it

 

[Roguey]

The controversy probably helped Wolfenstein 2, since it gave it a lot of free exposure when people weren't even talking about it

Its predecessor has sold nearly 2 million on PC alone since 2014. The New Colossus bombed so hard they had to cut the price in half mere weeks after its release.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

That's a shame. I bought it just to support a game about killing nazis. I hate FPS games and have no real desire to even play it.

 

[Fairfax]

The controversy probably helped Wolfenstein 2, since it gave it a lot of free exposure when people weren't even talking about it

Its predecessor has sold nearly 2 million on PC alone since 2014. The New Colossus bombed so hard they had to cut the price in half mere weeks after its release.

It definitely bombed hard, I just think the coverage from the controversy may have prevent an even worse performance. I think Prey is stronger example of terrible marketing by Zenimax. If Pete Hines is to blame, he certainly fell off from the FO3/Skyrim days.

 

[Roguey]

It definitely bombed hard, I just think the coverage from the controversy may have prevent an even worse performance. I think Prey is stronger example of terrible marketing by Zenimax. If Pete Hines is to blame, he certainly fell off from the FO3/Skyrim days.

Not all publicity is good publicity when your marketing is actively trying to drive away anyone who isn't full-fledged antifa supporter. I'm pretty confident that the core audience for these gory first person shooters consists of people whom antifa would refer to as Nazis or Nazi apologists/enablers.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

It definitely bombed hard, I just think the coverage from the controversy may have prevent an even worse performance. I think Prey is stronger example of terrible marketing by Zenimax. If Pete Hines is to blame, he certainly fell off from the FO3/Skyrim days.

Not all publicity is good publicity when your marketing is actively trying to drive away anyone who isn't full-fledged antifa supporter. I'm pretty confident that the core audience for these gory first person shooters consists of people whom antifa would refer to as Nazis or Nazi apologists/enablers.

I don’t really remember these ads, but you can’t blame them for thinking that Nazis were still the ideal all purpose bad guys. That was always a pretty safe assumption. The fact that so many people acted like this game had contemporary relevance says a lot more about them than about the game or the marketing.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

It definitely bombed hard, I just think the coverage from the controversy may have prevent an even worse performance. I think Prey is stronger example of terrible marketing by Zenimax. If Pete Hines is to blame, he certainly fell off from the FO3/Skyrim days.

Not all publicity is good publicity when your marketing is actively trying to drive away anyone who isn't full-fledged antifa supporter. I'm pretty confident that the core audience for these gory first person shooters consists of people whom antifa would refer to as Nazis or Nazi apologists/enablers.

I don’t really remember these ads, but you can’t blame them for thinking that Nazis were still the ideal all purpose bad guys. That was always a pretty safe assumption. The fact that so many people acted like this game had contemporary relevance says a lot more about them than about the game or the marketing.

 

[Roguey]

I don’t really remember these ads, but you can’t blame them for thinking that Nazis were still the ideal all purpose bad guys. That was always a pretty safe assumption. The fact that so many people acted like this game had contemporary relevance says a lot more about them than about the game or the marketing.

The official twitter account made direct references, including posting videos of people getting punched.

 

[Quillon]

The controversy probably helped Wolfenstein 2, since it gave it a lot of free exposure when people weren't even talking about it

Its predecessor has sold nearly 2 million on PC alone since 2014. The New Colossus bombed so hard they had to cut the price in half mere weeks after its release.

It definitely bombed hard, I just think the coverage from the controversy may have prevent an even worse performance. I think Prey is stronger example of terrible marketing by Zenimax. If Pete Hines is to blame, he certainly fell off from the FO3/Skyrim days.

Wolfenstein 2's sales isn't just tied to marketing. It is a game made with 10+ years ago's linear fps level design sense and it has too few enemy variety, too much focus on story/cutscenes which are not bad but too frequent on top of uninteresting gameplay. Even the first game they did was more up to date than this one.

Prey has also felt dated to me from what little I tried of it. Also The Evil Within 2 is worse than its predecessor. Guess Beth gave the teams too little time for these sequels to become a publisher that has released X number of games per year to show the world they are in the big leagues, justifying having a separate E3 show or whatever.

 

[Trashos]

It definitely bombed hard, I just think the coverage from the controversy may have prevent an even worse performance. I think Prey is stronger example of terrible marketing by Zenimax. If Pete Hines is to blame, he certainly fell off from the FO3/Skyrim days.

Not all publicity is good publicity when your marketing is actively trying to drive away anyone who isn't full-fledged antifa supporter. I'm pretty confident that the core audience for these gory first person shooters consists of people whom antifa would refer to as Nazis or Nazi apologists/enablers.

I don’t really remember these ads, but you can’t blame them for thinking that Nazis were still the ideal all purpose bad guys. That was always a pretty safe assumption. The fact that so many people acted like this game had contemporary relevance says a lot more about them than about the game or the marketing.

Nah, I took a look into it after Roguey mentioned it, and the marketing people really tried their worst to let everyone know that Wolf2 is a manifesto for current times. Plenty of articles online, you can check them out. "We are on the right side of history" and BS like that. Pretty embarrassing.

 

[Blaine]

Nah, I took a look into it after Roguey mentioned it, and the marketing people really tried their worst to let everyone know that Wolf2 is a manifesto for current times. Plenty of articles online, you can check them out. "We are on the right side of history" and BS like that. Pretty embarrassing.

Quite so. Killing Nazis is one thing and is a wholesome American tradition, but the game includes an unmistakably modern left-wing anti-white rant delivered by one of the characters in the game—not anti-Nazi, not anti-fascist, but anti-white.

That's not the only SJWing in The New Cucklossus, but that scene is significant because they tried to hide it by altering the dialogue in one of the trailers. That's right: Not only are they pushing their noxious political agenda on everyone, but now they're trying to squeak it in via subterfuge, presumably to ambush white male shitlords with privilege-checks.

The main target audience for Wolfenstein isn't pink-haired lardballs, so that effectively torpedoed the game. It wasn't the only factor by any means, but it was a much bigger factor than your average deluded, virtue-signaling leftist dipstick would ever admit to themselves.