Development Info Tim Cain at Reboot Develop 2017 - Building a Better RPG: Seven Mistakes to Avoid

[Lurker King]

If it's useless why the fuck is it in the game? This is the kind of thing that showed how CRPGs are designed backwards.

Stats and skills are models that represent real attributes in a fictional world.

Developers try to provide a complex skill set.

Developers try to provide a plausible fictional world.

There is no way to make every skill equally useful if you want either a plausible fictional world, or a complex skill set.

The usual way to solve this problem is by making a more artificial fictional world (e.g., W2), or by making a less complex skill set.

I know that no developer is reading the stuff we are posting, but how about this: you divide skills in the main and secondary group. Main skills are the more useful ones. Secondary skills just add some flavor to roleplaying. The points you have to allocate to each group are different. That way you can have different skills and an interest game world.

 

[Chainsaw Gutsfuck]

Regarding the argument that trap choices in character building add challenge:

Having to reload because you failed at a skill check that you could not possibly anticipate does not provide you with an interesting challenge. It doesn't require any short of intelligent planning, it is a case of trial and error. You didn't put enough points on strength, the game throws a giant golem at you and you die, because you couldn't guess the mind of the designer. So you load a previous save, you increase your strength more and the game lets you procede.

Imagine being trapped inside an underground dungeon. And you see a variety of paths, but you can't possibly know which is the one that leads to the surface. So you just randomly take one, and if it turns out to be wrong, you reload and try again. That's not real "challenge", it's blind guessing.

 

[Quillon]

I know no developer is reading the stuff we are posting, but how about this: you divide skills in the main and secondary group. Main skills are the more useful ones. Secondary skills just add some flavor to roleplaying. The points you have to allocate to each group are different. That way you can have different skills and an interest game world.

This is how it will be in Deadfire.

 

[Lurker King]

Metagame knowledge shouldn't be considered when designing a game/system, though. And it's something that unfortunately too many consider.

Metagame knowledge is the cornerstone of every challenging game.

 

[Lurker King]

Trap builds serve no purpose.

Trap builds are bad choices in character building. There is no good choice without bad choices. Ergo, trap builds are necessary.

 

[Excidium II]

Stats and skills are models that represent real attributes in a fictional world.

They are also tools you use to solve problems in the game. And that's what matters.

Stats and skills are models that represent real attributes in a fictional world.

Developers try to provide a complex skill set.

Developers try to provide a plausible fictional world.

This in the context of CRPGs made me laugh.

There is no way to make every skill equally useful if you want either a plausible fictional world, or a complex skill set.

Ok good thing nobody here is asking for skills to be equally useful because we actually play RPGs. You can't make swimming as generally useful as shooting outside of some very specific game concept. However you can question if your game actually needs a swimming skill.

I know that no developer is reading the stuff we are posting, but how about this: you divide skills in the main and secondary group. Main skills are the more useful ones. Secondary skills just add some flavor to roleplaying. The points you have to allocate to each group are different. That way you can have different skills and an interest game world.

absolutely disgusting. This is why CRPGs are shit.

 

[Latelistener]

Trap builds serve no purpose. They serve no purpose to the advanced players (who can instantly spot problems with a build and avoid it). They certainly serve no purpose to the noobs. So what are they? Something noobs can fail with? Noobs are plenty good at failing even without that.

Traps is a very useful skill for laying powerful traps, and can be crucial for some builds, especially for advanced players. Noobs will probably think that it is a useless skill, just like in most RPGs.

 

[Excidium II]

Trap builds serve no purpose.

Trap builds are bad choices in character building. There is no good choice without bad choices. Ergo, trap builds are necessary.

No. Trap builds as the name implies is something that unknowingly fucks you over.

 

[Roguey]

What's left @ Obsidian sure is gonna impress in that department.

They have Leonard. He's not over-the-hill until he's proven himself such.

 

[Excidium II]

What's left @ Obsidian sure is gonna impress in that department.

They have Leonard. He's not over-the-hill until he's proven himself such.

I'm sure his time at blizzard had great effect.

 

[Lhynn]

It should be impactful in some way. Like I want this skill because it's actually useful and not because it will give me a handful of different text strings on a replay where I can afford to assist borderline useless skills with metagame knowledge.

Some choices are not apropiate for your character bro. A lot of times it isnt that the skill is useless, its just that it doesnt work with what you did with your character.

Other than that, Just hide the numbers, informed decisions are very easy to make, therefore pointless.

 

[Excidium II]

It should be impactful in some way. Like I want this skill because it's actually useful and not because it will give me a handful of different text strings on a replay where I can afford to assist borderline useless skills with metagame knowledge.

Some choices are not apropiate for your character bro. A lot of times it isnt that the skill is useless, its just that it doesnt work with what you did with your character.

We are assuming a context where the player isn't a fucking moron.

 

[an Administrator]

Speaking of Traps...

 

[Beastro]

If it's useless why the fuck is it in the game? This is the kind of thing that showed how CRPGs are designed backwards.

The problem isn't the traps themselves, it's that games with less and less of that kind of extreme don't have the other extreme, overpowered builds that stand out from the rest and are rewarding and fun to discover.

When you go that route you get games like PoE, where you could pick and build your character blindly clicking and still beat the game without any sort of challenge, since that baby always seems to get thrown out with the bathwater.

In the end I'd rather live with the existence of traps than have ones where everyone can be a winner without investing more of themselves in the game beyond what they feel like LARPing that go around.

 

[Excidium II]

If it's useless why the fuck is it in the game? This is the kind of thing that showed how CRPGs are designed backwards.

The problem isn't the traps themselves, it's that games with less and less of that kind of extreme don't have the other extreme, overpowered builds that stand out from the rest and are rewarding and fun to discover.

When you go that route you get games like PoE, where you could pick and build your character blindly clicking and still beat the game without any sort of challenge, since that baby always seems to get thrown out with the bathwater.

ah the PoE is balanced meme ;^)

In the end I'd rather live with the existence of traps than have ones where everyone can be a winner without investing more of themselves in the game beyond what they feel like LARPing that go around.

I'll have neither thx.

 

[hivemind]

Speaking of Traps...

switch out the right side faces

 

[Beastro]

ah the PoE is balanced meme ;^)

It's the worst kind of balanced where everything is made simply playable instead of finding a functional balance between extremes.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Wasn't the problem of useless skills already pretty much solved by almost every single Fallout-like game that followed? Most skills were useful in Arcanum, safe for the almost pointless beauty stat. Almost every skill in AoD was useful in some scenario except for Etiquette which IIRC is about as useful as science in FO. New Vegas made all former useless skills from useful in one way or another, and in Underrail every skill had some practical application.

 

[Lurker King]

They are also tools you use to solve problems in the game. And that's what matters.

Why?

No. Trap builds as the name implies is something that unknowingly fucks you over.

So trap builds result from choices that later on will prevent you from moving forward because you lack a particular skill or stat.

This complaint is strange because 99% of cRPGs are very easy combat centric games that consider skill checks fluffy.

The only game that does that to the player is AoD, but even this is debatable. The main quests always follow a specific pattern.

 

[Excidium II]

They are also tools you use to solve problems in the game. And that's what matters.

Why?

Because it's a game.

 

[Excidium II]

ah the PoE is balanced meme ;^)

It's the worst kind of balanced where everything is made simply playable instead of finding a functional balance between extremes.

PoE was horribly unbalanced and full of trap builds and overpowered builds. It's just that combat was also very easy so it generally didn't matter.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

They are also tools you use to solve problems in the game. And that's what matters.

Why?

No. Trap builds as the name implies is something that unknowingly fucks you over.

So trap builds result from choices that later on will prevent you from moving forward because you lack a particular skill or stat.

This complaint is strange because 99% of cRPGs are very easy combat centric games that consider skill checks fluffy.

The only game that does that to the player is AoD, but even this is debatable. The main quests always follow a specific pattern.

But Fallout was full of trap builds, most sensible RPG character types are borderline useless in Fallout and will make you struggle through the game. Sure finishing it will be possible but it will be frustrating.
-Dumb musclehead - will loose out on exp rewards due to low intelligence, and struggle in combat because of low agility
-Handyman with lot of technical skills - almost totally useless
-Stealthy thief/assassin type - most of his skills will never be useful for anything, but won't be as bad in combat due to high agility alone
-Brainy scientist using futuristic weapons - his science skills will almost never be useful and he won't get energy weapons until very late in the game
Sure most of this builds can be made functional but only by making them more similar to the nimble, smart gunslinger-diplomat which is the dominant character archetype. Notice that the problem of trap builds can be solved without dumbing down the game as evidenced by many of the titles released later. For example in Underrail most of the above archetypes would be perfectly fine.
This is a difference between allowing bad builds and providing players with trap-options.

 

[mondblut]

In the end I'd rather live with the existence of traps than have ones where everyone can be a winner without investing more of themselves in the game beyond what they feel like LARPing that go around.

I'll have neither thx.

But you gotta pick one, lol.

Or, as they say, the only winning move is not to play

 

[Zanzoken]

All of this points to Obsidian trying to start a franchise of Skyrim/Mass Effect proportions that will secure the studio's financial position for years to come. Hasn't Feargus basically stated this openly? They want to stay independent without always being one or two failures away from going out of business (or they want an IP big enough to attract a major buyer and go the Bioware route).

They are modeling the core gameplay concepts that make these franchises work for the wider popamole audience:
- Big worlds/exploration
- "Epic" stories
- Companion imaginary friends/romances
- Shallow combat systems that require almost no thought
- Encounter design that is designed for "cool factor" instead of challenge
- Item overload because casuals obsess over weapons, armor, etc

I think the sad reality is "RPG" in the mind of most people is now a certain type of presentation more than a certain type of gameplay. So the Codex is basically correct -- Obsidian wants to make their flagship franchise an RPG for people who don't like RPGs, while using smaller projects like PoE and Tyranny to service the more traditional fan base (shudder).

 

[shysnake]

I know that no developer is reading the stuff we are posting, but how about this: you divide skills in the main and secondary group. Main skills are the more useful ones. Secondary skills just add some flavor to roleplaying. The points you have to allocate to each group are different. That way you can have different skills and an interest game world.

Nah, some of us enjoy reading these threads. In the back of our minds we are re-checking our own choices.