Company News Tim Cain joins MCA over at Obsidian Entertainment

[Stinger]

Obsidian probably got a fair bit of publisher goodwill from the success though, so maybe it'll help them in the long run for getting more projects and hopefully less publisher interference.

 

[Asdraguuhl]

Fair enough. Mind you, if somebody out there likes string quartets and is sick to death of orchestral tracks, then they have about as big a point as you do. You just switch a few of the key words around, and you have a valid argument in the reverse.

Not really, because what I'm just talking about is the ensemble itself. If someone says that they are tired of the standard orchestral tracks in games, what they really mean is the way that the orchestra is used. The possibilies for orchestra are endless, and they're no denying that they have greater timbral variety and sonic capabilities than a string quartet. That's all I'm talking about.

I agree completely. One thing is to use an orchestra but another thing is to fully exploit the capabilities of an orchestra, which is an art form in itself. Composers like Richard Wagner or Richard Strauss (not to be confused with Waltz composer Johann Strauss) were true masters in orchestration and knew how to combine instruments in order to create unique sounds.

 

[St. Toxic]

Fair enough. Mind you, if somebody out there likes string quartets and is sick to death of orchestral tracks, then they have about as big a point as you do. You just switch a few of the key words around, and you have a valid argument in the reverse.

Not really, because what I'm just talking about is the ensemble itself. If someone says that they are tired of the standard orchestral tracks in games, what they really mean is the way that the orchestra is used. The possibilies for orchestra are endless, and they're no denying that they have greater timbral variety and sonic capabilities than a string quartet. That's all I'm talking about.

Doesn't that mean that you cannot actually get tired of orchestral music, that it's simply down to composition and how the orchestra is used? Sounds pretty fishy to me.

Would you say that a person who decides to listen to piano sonatas is stupid, because there are alternatives with two or more instruments out there that would provide him with music with a wider range?

 

[Elwro]

You cannot get tired of orchestral music, if you listen to good orchestral music. :D

The same is the case with piano sonatas. Even if you do a full Haydn run-through in a week, it only takes a few days of e.g. choir music refreshment and you can still take on an indefinite amount of piano music with renewed interest...

 

[Asdraguuhl]

Would you say that a person who decides to listen to piano sonatas is stupid, because there are alternatives with two or more instruments out there that would provide him with music with a wider range?

No one is stating or implying that someone is stupid for listening to small ensembles.

There is a difference between composing a separate musical work and a soundtrack, which must function in combination with another media. A soundtrack may contain good music composition wise but that does not automatically imply that it is "effective" as a soundtrack. In an interview with Bernard Herrmann (filmcomposer of Psycho), he himself stated that "bad" music (in music theoretical sense) can be very effective in films. (Although this doesn't mean that soundtracks are bad music by default, just that quality and effectiveness do not necessarily go hand in hand)

Effective soundtracks often blend in with the secenery to enhance the atmosphere. I think that in the case of Arcanum, rather than "merging" with the scenery, the score sits at the forefront "imposing" a specific tone throughout the entire game. Some may like this approach if they happen to like the music, but inevitably, others will not. And in my opinion, regardless of its quality, it is not that effective as a soundtrack.

 

[Forest Dweller]

^ Sort of what I was going to say.

I'd also like to add that in the case of piano sonatas, string quartets, and just about any classical piece, there is more going on musically then there is in a video game track. These pieces, of course, are made to stand on their own, unlike video game tracks, and so the stakes are higher for them. So what you end up getting (for good pieces at least) is a fully cohesive piece, that has an overall trajectory, developing themes, and integration of musical material in a satisfying way. These things alone are enough to make the piece interesting even if the timbre itself is a bit homogenous. The same is not true for games though, as what we're talking about in that case are static tracks that loop. Taken away from the game, "musically" they are not that interesting. And that's fine, because they're not meant to be taken away from the game (soundtrack sales notwithstanding). The closest thing you can get to achieving the unity and progression of a classical piece in a video game is to have a series of variations on "leitmotives" that appear throughout like in the Final Fantasy games. But even for those, if you take them apart, the soundtrack won't flow like a classical piece.

 

[Volourn]

"Obsidian probably got a fair bit of publisher goodwill from the success though, so maybe it'll help them in the long run for getting more projects and hopefully less publisher interference."

Sure, but that goodwill was likely squandered when they release shit like AP and DS3 and had Aliens shitcanned before even release.
R00fles!

 

[Wunderpurps]

No one is stating or implying that someone is stupid for listening to small ensembles.

Yeah that should be reserved for people who say arcanum should have had a merger of orchestral and INDUSTRIAL music. Hey it's the time of the industrial revolution so why not? Lololol. This is gayer than when people talk about how bad and generic music is in games then turn around say how awesome the morrowind theme is.

In fact I'll just come out and say anyone who thinks arcanum's music was bad or didin't fit the game was an idiot. Yes there's always taste to consider but if people really think it's out of place or poorly made then they are hopeless.

There is a difference between composing a separate musical work and a soundtrack, which must function in combination with another media. A soundtrack may contain good music composition wise but that does not automatically imply that it is "effective" as a soundtrack. In an interview with Bernard Herrmann (filmcomposer of Psycho), he himself stated that "bad" music (in music theoretical sense) can be very effective in films. (Although this doesn't mean that soundtracks are bad music by default, just that quality and effectiveness do not necessarily go hand in hand)

Effective soundtracks often blend in with the secenery to enhance the atmosphere. I think that in the case of Arcanum, rather than "merging" with the scenery, the score sits at the forefront "imposing" a specific tone throughout the entire game. Some may like this approach if they happen to like the music, but inevitably, others will not. And in my opinion, regardless of its quality, it is not that effective as a soundtrack.

Yeah thanks for educating us, no one could figure that out.

It might be technically true that an orchestra has more range but that's the point in why it sucks. Yes you can get all kinds of effect from an orchestra but in practice no one is going to work for 12 years on a single piece that's made for a game, and that's what it takes to get masterpieces. What you really get with an orchestra is a cheap way to add huge punch to music in a nonoffensive generic way using cheap tricks that people who are not discerning with music but think they are like yourself bite into hook line and sinker and think it's the most awesome epic thing ever.

Stick that in your accordian and squeeze it, muzak boy.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Two retards now. Hey you suck for not liking the soundtrack, I don't need an argument, HURR.

Though I do want to comment on one part:

Yes you can get all kinds of effect from an orchestra but in practice no one is going to work for 12 years on a single piece that's made for a game, and that's what it takes to get masterpieces.

Looks like somebody doesn't know fuck all about composing. I suppose to the uninitiated it may seem like a great endeavor compared to other ensembles, but not as much as it may seem. Yes it generally takes longer to write for an orchestra than a smaller ensemble, but you know there's this principle called "doubling," where notes and phrases are repeated in other instruments either in octaves or in unison. It's not like you give the same amount of attention to each instrument as you would in a chamber ensemble.

12 years. Mahler wrote 9 symphonies in his lifetime, and they were huge. Also song cycles for voice and orchestra. Do you think he lived to be 108? And keep in mind most composers don't really start until they're adults.

And hey, how about Haydn's 100+ symphonies, eh?

 

[Elwro]

Yeah, I also wanted to comment on the "12 years for a masterpiece" bit, but thought that arguing with retards was pointless. Still, Mahler, with his lifetime of fine-tuning of his orchestral pieces, might not be the best example

 

[Wunderpurps]

You are so smart because you listen to classical music. It's the only genre where everything is a masterpiece. There's never been any shitty classical music ever made!

you know there's this principle called "doubling," where notes and phrases are repeated in other instruments either in octaves or in unison. It's not like you give the same amount of attention to each instrument as you would in a chamber ensemble.

You mean sort of like what I was talking about, where you could add in a lot of oomph to a really shitty or derivative piece without any work at all and call it a day?

Once again yes it's easier to use an orchestra to make shit music. If all you had was a triangle it would be a lot harder to make something good with it. Yet to make use of all the range in a way that appeals to anyone but an idiot savant who gets caught up in some idiot repeating scales over and over takes much more work than will ever be put into a game's soundtrack.

 

[Elwro]

You are so smart because you listen to classical music. It's the only genre where everything is a masterpiece.There's never been any shitty classical music ever made!

Nope. But usually people don't know about the shitty music, because why should they? Few people like to play it or listen to it. For every Mozart or Haydn (geniuses) there were quite a few Krauses or Vanhals (good composers - have you even heard of them?) and dozens of people like Anton Zimmerman, Karl von Ordonez or Giacomo de Lucchesini, which, I guess, would qualify as writing shitty music. (Extremely derivative and unoriginal.)

you know there's this principle called "doubling," where notes and phrases are repeated in other instruments either in octaves or in unison. It's not like you give the same amount of attention to each instrument as you would in a chamber ensemble.

You mean sort of like what I was talking about, where you could add in a lot of oomph to a really shitty or derivative piece without any work at all and call it a day?

Nope.

 

[Wunderpurps]

You are so smart because you listen to classical music. It's the only genre where everything is a masterpiece.There's never been any shitty classical music ever made!

Nope. But usually people don't know about the shitty music, because why should they? Few people like to play it or listen to it. For every Mozart or Haydn (geniuses) there were quite a few Krauses or Vanhals (good composers - have you even heard of them?) and dozens of people like Anton Zimmerman, Karl von Ordonez or Giacomo de Lucchesini, which, I guess, would qualify as writing shitty music. (Extremely derivative and unoriginal.)

you know there's this principle called "doubling," where notes and phrases are repeated in other instruments either in octaves or in unison. It's not like you give the same amount of attention to each instrument as you would in a chamber ensemble.

You mean sort of like what I was talking about, where you could add in a lot of oomph to a really shitty or derivative piece without any work at all and call it a day?

Nope.

I was talking to dicksmoker, not you.

12 years is a bit of hyperbole I admit but you can halfass a mediocre orchestral piece in a couple hours.

 

[Asdraguuhl]

No one is stating or implying that someone is stupid for listening to small ensembles.

Yeah that should be reserved for people who say arcanum should have had a merger of orchestral and INDUSTRIAL music. Hey it's the time of the industrial revolution so why not? Lololol. This is gayer than when people talk about how bad and generic music is in games then turn around say how awesome the morrowind theme is.

In fact I'll just come out and say anyone who thinks arcanum's music was bad or didin't fit the game was an idiot. Yes there's always taste to consider but if people really think it's out of place or poorly made then they are hopeless.

There is a difference between composing a separate musical work and a soundtrack, which must function in combination with another media. A soundtrack may contain good music composition wise but that does not automatically imply that it is "effective" as a soundtrack. In an interview with Bernard Herrmann (filmcomposer of Psycho), he himself stated that "bad" music (in music theoretical sense) can be very effective in films. (Although this doesn't mean that soundtracks are bad music by default, just that quality and effectiveness do not necessarily go hand in hand)

Effective soundtracks often blend in with the secenery to enhance the atmosphere. I think that in the case of Arcanum, rather than "merging" with the scenery, the score sits at the forefront "imposing" a specific tone throughout the entire game. Some may like this approach if they happen to like the music, but inevitably, others will not. And in my opinion, regardless of its quality, it is not that effective as a soundtrack.

Yeah thanks for educating us, no one could figure that out.

It might be technically true that an orchestra has more range but that's the point in why it sucks. Yes you can get all kinds of effect from an orchestra but in practice no one is going to work for 12 years on a single piece that's made for a game, and that's what it takes to get masterpieces. What you really get with an orchestra is a cheap way to add huge punch to music in a nonoffensive generic way using cheap tricks that people who are not discerning with music but think they are like yourself bite into hook line and sinker and think it's the most awesome epic thing ever.

Stick that in your accordian and squeeze it, muzak boy.

I thought that this music sub-discussion was quite civilised but it was of course just a matter of time until it would be disrupted by another 1bit-brained retard with nothing meaningful to contribute.

 

[Asdraguuhl]

You are so smart because you listen to classical music. It's the only genre where everything is a masterpiece. There's never been any shitty classical music ever made!

No, I am not smarter for listening to classical music. No statements have been made for you to come to that conslusion.

You, on the other hand are not exactly making a good impression. I do not know you and do not know your level of intelligence but considering your responses and tone you do not give me any reasons to believe that you are indeed capable of contributing to an intelligent discussion.
If I am indeed mistaken, then it is up to you to change my image of you that you yourself created.

 

[St. Toxic]

Would you say that a person who decides to listen to piano sonatas is stupid, because there are alternatives with two or more instruments out there that would provide him with music with a wider range?

No one is stating or implying that someone is stupid for listening to small ensembles.

But why would they? There's only so much one can do but with one piano, isn't there? Or two pianos, for that matter; madness! No, friend, it's big-band or bust. Isn't it?

There is a difference between composing a separate musical work and a soundtrack, which must function in combination with another media. A soundtrack may contain good music composition wise but that does not automatically imply that it is "effective" as a soundtrack. In an interview with Bernard Herrmann (filmcomposer of Psycho), he himself stated that "bad" music (in music theoretical sense) can be very effective in films. (Although this doesn't mean that soundtracks are bad music by default, just that quality and effectiveness do not necessarily go hand in hand)

In essence, a good soundtrack need not be anything special when considered on its own, if I understand you correctly. This may well be the case, but we have countless examples of vg music that not only adds to the overall game experience but is also a pleasure to listen to outside of the game environment. Wouldn't you say it's a greater achievement if you could have both?

Effective soundtracks often blend in with the secenery to enhance the atmosphere. I think that in the case of Arcanum, rather than "merging" with the scenery, the score sits at the forefront "imposing" a specific tone throughout the entire game. Some may like this approach if they happen to like the music, but inevitably, others will not. And in my opinion, regardless of its quality, it is not that effective as a soundtrack.

I think that's what it really boils down to. The game world in Arcanum, rather than echoing its essence in terms of music, is shaped by the music, giving the overall experience a sense of character and a greater variety. And the tracks in themselves are top-notch. I would see it as a real loss to replace the soundtrack with something less imposing and less memorable, and particularly so if replaced with something as generic (it must be said) as orchestral tracks.

I'd also like to add that in the case of piano sonatas, string quartets, and just about any classical piece, there is more going on musically then there is in a video game track. These pieces, of course, are made to stand on their own, unlike video game tracks, and so the stakes are higher for them. So what you end up getting (for good pieces at least) is a fully cohesive piece, that has an overall trajectory, developing themes, and integration of musical material in a satisfying way. These things alone are enough to make the piece interesting even if the timbre itself is a bit homogenous. The same is not true for games though, as what we're talking about in that case are static tracks that loop. Taken away from the game, "musically" they are not that interesting. And that's fine, because they're not meant to be taken away from the game (soundtrack sales notwithstanding). The closest thing you can get to achieving the unity and progression of a classical piece in a video game is to have a series of variations on "leitmotives" that appear throughout like in the Final Fantasy games. But even for those, if you take them apart, the soundtrack won't flow like a classical piece.

So, vg music played on piano cannot sound good because it doesn't flow like classical music? You almost had me bro.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwV_lx9Qa0Q :/

 

[Wunderpurps]

The game world in Arcanum, rather than echoing its essence in terms of music, is shaped by the music, giving the overall experience a sense of character and a greater variety. And the tracks in themselves are top-notch. I would see it as a real loss to replace the soundtrack with something less imposing and less memorable, and particularly so if replaced with something as generic (it must be said) as orchestral tracks.

Exactly.

You aren't going to get orchestral pieces by geniuses either but by 5th rate hacks who choose orchestras in order to make their work easier. If someone doesn't like string quartet fine but the whole point is to set a style and immerse you into a period, which would be totally lost with an orchestral piece.

 

[Asdraguuhl]

Would you say that a person who decides to listen to piano sonatas is stupid, because there are alternatives with two or more instruments out there that would provide him with music with a wider range?

No one is stating or implying that someone is stupid for listening to small ensembles.

But why would they? There's only so much one can do but with one piano, isn't there? Or two pianos, for that matter; madness! No, friend, it's big-band or bust. Isn't it?

I don't think you are making a valid point here. No one is saying that a full orchestra is always better than a small ensemble in EVERY case. (In fact, I prefer the original piano version of Modest Mussorgsksy "Pictures at an Exhibition" instead of the orchestrated version by Ravel). My original point was that an orchestra is able to offer a wider range of tone colours that can be beneficial when representing a complex world with many contrasts.

There is a difference between composing a separate musical work and a soundtrack, which must function in combination with another media. A soundtrack may contain good music composition wise but that does not automatically imply that it is "effective" as a soundtrack. In an interview with Bernard Herrmann (filmcomposer of Psycho), he himself stated that "bad" music (in music theoretical sense) can be very effective in films. (Although this doesn't mean that soundtracks are bad music by default, just that quality and effectiveness do not necessarily go hand in hand)

In essence, a good soundtrack need not be anything special when considered on its own, if I understand you correctly. This may well be the case, but we have countless examples of vg music that not only adds to the overall game experience but is also a pleasure to listen to outside of the game environment. Wouldn't you say it's a greater achievement if you could have both?

In fact, I listen to a lot of soundtracks and it is indeed, unjustly in my opinion, un underrated genre. There are many examples of soundtracks that contain excelent music that can stand on its own and will probably stand the test of time. Of course, the ideal is to have a soundtrack that is both effective and good. It is the "effectiveness" in Arcanum's score that I question.

I particularly like the Arcanum tracks "Caladon's Catacombs" and "Villages" when I listen to them as separate pieces. But I don't necessarily "hear" or "feel" the concepts of of "villages" or "catacombs" so I do not feel that the music adds to the local atmosphere.

Effective soundtracks often blend in with the secenery to enhance the atmosphere. I think that in the case of Arcanum, rather than "merging" with the scenery, the score sits at the forefront "imposing" a specific tone throughout the entire game. Some may like this approach if they happen to like the music, but inevitably, others will not. And in my opinion, regardless of its quality, it is not that effective as a soundtrack.

In essence, I think that's what it really boils down to. The game world in Arcanum, rather than echoing its essence in terms of music, is shaped by the music, giving the overall experience a sense of character and a greater variety. And the tracks in themselves are top-notch. I would see it as a real loss to replace the soundtrack with something less imposing and less memorable, and particularly so if replaced with something as generic (it must be said) as orchestral tracks.

I never said that the music should be replaced. The string quartet does indeed give Arcanum a unique feel, which is something that I never questioned. Instead of "replacing", I always thought that more elements or variety should have been ADDED to the score. When you listen to the score, you don't know whether you are in a city, forest, technological or magical locations, etc. I said it over and over and will repeat it again: my main issue is that the score does not represent these things effectively, it only represents a "general" and (in my opinion) a "static" feel for everything. This is my complaint, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Forest Dweller]

12 years is a bit of hyperbole I admit but you can halfass a mediocre orchestral piece in a couple hours.

You keep contradicting yourself.

And no you cannot halfass a mediocre orchestral score in a couple of hours. The sheer time it will take to put in all the notes will make sure of that.

 

[Forest Dweller]

So, vg music played on piano cannot sound good because it doesn't flow like classical music? You almost had me bro.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwV_lx9Qa0Q :/

What? If anything that proves my point. What that music is is the statement of an idea, along with a couple of variations, and then it loops. Notice how the piece just "stops" instead of arriving at a satisfying conclusion. (They picked a cadence in order to end on, but it still really could have ended anywhere.)

In other words, the piece is static. And that makes it uninteresting.

I didn't say anything about whether something "sounds good." Classical pieces are more than just about being "pretty" (in fact there are quite a few in the twentieth century which aren't so pretty). It's about developement of ideas (whether one or multiple) and contrasting sections (unless the piece is very short) in order to propell that developement towards a meaningful conclusion. The music has a sense of motion.

 

[Jaesun]

I never said that the music should be replaced. The string quartet does indeed give Arcanum a unique feel, which is something that I never questioned. Instead of "replacing", I always thought that more elements or variety should have been ADDED to the score. When you listen to the score, you don't know whether you are in a city, forest, technological or magical locations, etc. I said it over and over and will repeat it again: my main issue is that the score does not represent these things effectively, it only represents a "general" and (in my opinion) a "static" feel for everything. This is my complaint, nothing more and nothing less.

Agreed, I could never put my complaint of the Arcanum music so succinctly.

You have Successfully added Asdraguuhl to your BRO list.

 

[Coyote]

I particularly like the Arcanum tracks "Caladon's Catacombs" and "Villages" when I listen to them as separate pieces. But I don't necessarily "hear" or "feel" the concepts of of "villages" or "catacombs" so I do not feel that the music adds to the local atmosphere.

Hmm, I'd agree with you in some cases (both "Caladon" and to a lesser extent "Tarant" are themes that seem better-suited to a small town than a city, for instance), but "Villages" is one of the better pieces in this regard, IMO. It makes me think of a quaint little rural village when I hear it, and that's pretty much what Stillwater is.

 

[Wunderpurps]

I never said that the music should be replaced. The string quartet does indeed give Arcanum a unique feel, which is something that I never questioned.
Instead of "replacing", I always thought that more elements or variety should have been ADDED to the score. When you listen to the score, you don't know whether you are in a city, forest, technological or magical locations, etc. I said it over and over and will repeat it again: my main issue is that the score does not represent these things effectively, it only represents a "general" and (in my opinion) a "static" feel for everything. This is my complaint, nothing more and nothing less.

And everyone is with you to that point. Fine. But it's still a useless complain because it just amounts to saying feature x of a game could have been better if they only spent way more time and effort and money on it. That's true of anything but you can't realistically develop 8 different styles of music for a game, and then expect them to all be good and mesh together, in a reasonable time frame for a budget that is anything short of astronomical.

The problem is you quickly go full retard. Adding in industrial music to arcanum is the worst comment I can imagine someone making.

An orchestra is only a little less stupid or I'd say naive. Some of the people here are talking classical music and some are talking game music, but you are not going to get the equivalent of swan lake for a computer game no matter what budget you have, unless you actually take swan lake or something of similar scope and develop the game to the music.

An orchestra is not going to bring incredible complexity, and never has in any game I've played. It's going to bring cheap and shitty tricks to make a few licks go way too long of a way.

 

[Wunderpurps]

I particularly like the Arcanum tracks "Caladon's Catacombs" and "Villages" when I listen to them as separate pieces. But I don't necessarily "hear" or "feel" the concepts of of "villages" or "catacombs" so I do not feel that the music adds to the local atmosphere.

Hmm, I'd agree with you in some cases (both "Caladon" and to a lesser extent "Tarant" are themes that seem better-suited to a small town than a city, for instance), but "Villages" is one of the better pieces in this regard, IMO. It makes me think of a quaint little rural village when I hear it, and that's pretty much what Stillwater is.

We also need a crafting song, and a song for traveling. I'm on a journey! And a eating song and toilet song. I need an emotional quest compass or how will I know the fire elemental is angry instead of a sad emo fire elemental.

 

[Coyote]

Was that supposed to have any relevance to what I said, or are you just spouting nonsense for the hell of it?