Black Angel
Arcane
In short, Fallout 3 failed to answer the question, "What do they eat?", whereas New Vegas succeeded gracefully
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Time for another fallout 3 discussion
- Thread starter deama
- Start date
Lazing Dirk
Arcane
Paging mthfrkdmdbggflpna
2house2fly
Magister
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2013
- Messages
- 1,877
I've watched the video before, I'm not going to watch it again but it makes some good points. It's not going to turn anyone who hates it into a fan, but some of the things people go hardest on Fallout 3 for are things that they heard about second hand or dimly remember from playing it 10 years ago. I think the rpgcodex review of the game even pointed out that there's a good amount of stat and skill use when resolving quests.
I was more surprised than anything else that this guy launched such a passionate defense of Fallout 3, when all I'd heard of him doing with Fallout before was ludicrous challenge runs of New Vegas. It's quite rare for someone to be really into both of those games.
I was more surprised than anything else that this guy launched such a passionate defense of Fallout 3, when all I'd heard of him doing with Fallout before was ludicrous challenge runs of New Vegas. It's quite rare for someone to be really into both of those games.
In New Vegas you can get a laser gun during character creation
I like how they took the exact same scenario in Wasteland 2 but did it right. How the M.A.D. Monks threaten everybody in the Canyon of Titan with mutual assured destruction by actually detonating the nuke unless people cooperate. This in turn gives rise to peculiar social relations and a balance of power.
The idea that that there can be an undetonated nuke in Megaton that nobody wants to lay their hands on is absurde. If both BoS and the Enclace for some reason are on the eastcoast all of a sudden, why wouldn't they want to lay there hands on it?
Yeah, I watched that one just before I watched the one I posted.
Ahhh crap, I messed up guys, for some reason I didn't realise people wouldn't actually dedicated 2 hours to watch through the video. I'm gonna make a tldr and post it here (or can I make a new thread and delete this one?).
So stay tuned.
Lazing Dirk
Arcane
You spent 3.5 hou-
You spent 5.5 hours watching videos about Fallout 3? That's dedication.
Eh, no, not exactly. I watched the 2 hour video twice, once several months ago, and now again, so 4 hours, then I watched the fallout garbage one a while back, and once more recently, so about 7 hours.
Oh and I'm rewatching the 2 hour one again so I can do a tldr, so I guess it's gonna be 9? He-he-he.
The Brazilian Slaughter
Arcane
The nuke was a far better plot coupon, and its easily fixed with a few skill points. Leeel.
Its a FUCKING NUKE, anyone that owns A FUCKING NUKE has the power to wipe their enemies from the map forever.
The Brotherhood, who are all about safeguarding people from technology, simply ignore A FUCKING NUKE.
Instead they fight for some water purifier, because reasons.
The Brazilian Slaughter
Arcane
Other lost opportunities:
- Joining Colonel Autumn, the most sensible person in this idiotic mess. Take Eden out of the picture, and there's simply no reason not to join the Enclave. HEROIC ENCLAVE, how's that for a interesting subversion? And they just ignore it.
- Liberty Prime could have been the coolest Final Boss of Fallout. Instead he's a huge CRUTCH and indestructible that makes the end game utterly boring. Fucking game gives you Recreational McNukes but you can't kill a giant robot. Fuck that shit.
- Joining Colonel Autumn, the most sensible person in this idiotic mess. Take Eden out of the picture, and there's simply no reason not to join the Enclave. HEROIC ENCLAVE, how's that for a interesting subversion? And they just ignore it.
- Liberty Prime could have been the coolest Final Boss of Fallout. Instead he's a huge CRUTCH and indestructible that makes the end game utterly boring. Fucking game gives you Recreational McNukes but you can't kill a giant robot. Fuck that shit.
3:04 - vault 101 openning - basically the openning to fallout 3. This part is interesting because it allows the devs to show off the core components of their game, the most important parts; e.g. like how in mass effect it takes a bit before we can shoot things, there's an opening about scientific principles, lore, etc... devs understood that what makes mass effect work isn't the gunplay but the universe.
So, back to fallout 3, it's your birthday and you have to deal with butch the bully. What's interesting about this is that all the choices don't involve direct violence, you can either spit on the candy, tell him to fuck off and go get help from officer mac, or just give him the sweetroll; violence isn't an option, yet. The game does introduce guns just a bit layer with the bb gun, but it didn't introduce gunplay first.
Moving a little further, when you encounter butch bullying amata, you have several options to resolve it without violence, violence is the last resort here; violence is the second option here.
Comparing this to fallout 1, you're just put in a cave with rats, no discussions, just either kill the rats or run past them.
New vegas almost immediately starts with a tutorial on guns which isn't as buried as the fallout 3's butch bullying amata.
5:58 - escaping vault 101 - Ok so right at the start, amata offers you a gun, you can decline it or accept it. But if you insist that she keeps it, just a bit later she will actually use it in the interogation scene with her father and officer mac; so you don't have to rescue her, she can rescue herself. I can't really think of any type of quest like this in fallout 1, 2, or even new vegas like this.
Moving on, butch comes up to you with a quest, his mother is being attacked by roaches. There's different ways to resolve this, but a really interesting one is being able to persuade him to save her himself by giving him your bb gun. You basically persuaded an NPC to resolve their own mess, that's pretty interesting and again, I can't think of a similiar quest in any of the fallout games.
I suppose you can say that new vegas' "ghost town gunfight" is similiar since you're arming the civilians there, but even then, the fight doesn't trigger until your there to trigger it; butch on the other hand once he gets the weapon, runs out to solve the problem himself, you don't have to follow him for the game to register.
The escape itself has different options, you can steal the key to the overseer's from his bedroom, you can threaten him, a tape, etc... fallout 3's message is clear: explore thoroughly and you'll find alternative solutions.
7:54 - officer Kendall - Some people seem annoyed that you can't talk down officer kendall, or even talk to him at all (the first guard from when you're escaping). But you can very easily just run past him as he attacks the roaches, he's just trying to fight the roaches; and he never seems to die to them anyway. In fact, it's very easy to escape the vault without killing anyone: using the roaches as a distraction, you can avoid the guards in the HM corridor by sneaking past them, there's even a specially recorded dialogue option from amata to say if you sneak past everyone. So the game is fully aware this could be an option.
I don't see a problem people have with this, you can solve different problems in different ways, there's different skill checks, etc...
Some people even mentioned they don't like the beginning because they don't like how you start in a vault (a small place), but that's kinda the point, you start the game in a small, dark place, because it makes the wasteland feel so much bigger when you get there.
9:22 - eixiting vault 101 - fallout 3's exiting of the vault is one of the best things in gaming. Just so much of it is perfect, when you step out, your eyes adjust to the white light for the first time; the wasteland is all spread out right infront of you, the orientation of the vault and it's elevation so you can see the capital building, the washington monument, it's just so good that even new vegas and fallout 4 copied it, albeit not as well.
Fallout 3 places you in the middle of the map, so you can just run in any direction you want to, which is nice if you compare it to new vegas. New vegas has a solid wall to the west, and a narrow canyon to the north.
One of the things people like about fallout 1 is being able to go to the end game from vault 13, but you can basically do the same thing in fallout 3 too, e.g. in fallout 3 you can immediately start running west and reach a majo plot area.
11:42 - going to megaton - How is it the game directs you to megaton? Sure there's a questmarker, but not everyone is gonna realise what that means, not everyone is even gonna respond to it. Let's just say you want to do some exploring. When you step out of valut 101, the natural arch of the cave encourages you to not go to whatever is behind you, this is reinforced by there not being any lankmarks in your compass too. When you first step out, there is a small sign that will be of interest to some people, if you go to it, you can see the road to springvale, as well as the broken buildings there. Even if you ignore the sign and just go down, you'll notice that the more interesting view is to the left (springvale), on the right there's just more rocks.
Once you get to springvale you get to see the eyebot in the distance, the bright flash of red (nuka cola machine), and the red rocket sign, all this draws you closer to megaton, eventually you encounter a sign for it.
13:02 - entrance to megaton - megaton is an interesting place. I really like megaton, and partly because of that is because it's great visual design, it's easy to get attached to (and remember) a place if it's designed interestingly. For example, I know where everyone lives in megaton, but new vegas' goodsprings, which has a smaller population, I only found out easy pete sleeps in the long three room house in the middle of town. I think part of the problem is that goodsprings is just a town, made up of a group of houses, it's hard to remember and be interested in it because of that.
13:56 - megaton's bomb - Some people realllly hate the bloody bomb because it's odd to build a town around a bomb. But this never bothered me though, cause I always thought there was a fairly sensible reason for it, because of the water. When the bomb hit, it didn't detonate, but it made a crator that had water reserves there, deep enough for a populace. Sure it's radioactive, but so is all water, in fact, it's even less radioactive than the water at the river...
14:59 - power of the atom quest - sheriff wants to disarm the bomb, but the Mister Burke wants to blow it up. Many people dislike this because it's one of those "computer gamey morale choices", where the bad option is such supervillainous bad that it becomes ridiculous; why would anyone even want to blow it up? If you examine the mechanics of the game, then it makes a bit more sense: the good solution normaly pays 100 caps, 500 with a fairly hard speech check, the evil option pays 500 straight up and with a speech check 1000. There are also some interesting consequences, e.g. if you side with megaton, burke sends a team of assassins to kill you (eventually), the only way to avoid that is to do a speech check to convince him not to destroy the town. Or you can tell burke that you'll do the quest, get paid 500 caps, but then turn him in and get paid even more, and potentially stopping the assassins by killing him. Though I do agree with people saying that there's no reason to detonate the bomb, unless you're playing as an evil person. However, I do find that an odd complaint, because one of the most frequently raised issues for fallout 3 is that it isn't a proper role playing game, because there aren't enough choices with consequences; but right here you get the option to blow up a major settlement, perminantely killing major characters, a quest companion, shops, a very hard locked armory, a unique bobblehead, player housing, and the only character in the game that has any information leading to your father's whereareabouts. If you do decide to blow it up, you just have to live with it then, you'll even find the main plot has changed slightly saying that "continue the search for your father" and without a questmarker this time. Not even new vegas did this, e.g. if you kill beagle, he has a tape on him that just tells you what he'd normally say; kill manny? The information is right there on his terminal.
Also, I think the bomb is interesting thematically, as weapons of mass destruction come up repeatedly in fallout 3; e.g. in fort constantine you can find the launch codes for a continental missle, you can attempt to launch it but it will fail; though in a nearby satalight array you can trigger an orbital weapon's platform to drop a nuclear payload on the wasteland and that one does actually trigger.
18:53 - fallout 3 is grim - the wasteland hasn't recovered from nuclear devastation, the pockets of civilisation are fragile and insecure; in arafu there're about to give up, in big town the people are pretty much initially completely dispondent, this is a game that dwells on the horror of nuclear apocalypse: "America is in ruins but there's still some nukes ready to go off yet." Fallout 3's world is haunted by it's nuclear past, whether that's with the water's radiation, old vault-tech experiements (super mutants), or the surviving weapons. This theme is powerful enough that new vegas would revisit it in lonesome road. If fallout 3 had a thesis, it would perhaps be clinging to the past, repeating prior mistakes, replaying conflicts, new vegas would pick this up too with the "old world blues" phrase, meaning "reffering to those those so upsest with the past they can't see the future."
This idea also keeps coming up in the main antagonists in fallout 3: president eden wants to wipe clean the slate of anything post war no matter the casualties; braun wants to recreat the old world, even if it means living the rest of this life in a simulation; the overseer is so scared of his change that he'd rather gundown his own people.
20:37 - cotinueing with megaton - you have to get some info on your dad, you can do this in many ways, do a quest for moriety, steal his key, steal his tape, get some info from his customers, etc...
A lot of fallout 3's quests are like this, e.g. let's skip forward abit on little lamplight...
21:26 - some info on little lamplight - there were a couple of reviews I read/saw that claimed little lamplight is the peak of bathesda's design choices; which the reviewers mention that it is "anithetical to the very core of fallout games". This is a bit confusing, because here's how that section goes: There's a guard at little lamplight, you can pass through by either a fairly tough speech check, a special charisma gated perk, or do a quest. The review mentioned earlier critizised that you can't just blow your way into little lamplight, which is weird because that would involve murdering children. I do kinda agree, it is unrealistic, but you have to draw a line somewhere, e.g. it's unrealistic to get better at computer hacking without actually using any computers (pumping points into skill via leveling up), insta heal stimpacks, etc... but you have to draw the line somewhere here, not every game can have red faction gueirilla mechanics included.
24:53 - quest for little lamplight - To do the quest, you have to gain entry to paradise falls,
So, back to fallout 3, it's your birthday and you have to deal with butch the bully. What's interesting about this is that all the choices don't involve direct violence, you can either spit on the candy, tell him to fuck off and go get help from officer mac, or just give him the sweetroll; violence isn't an option, yet. The game does introduce guns just a bit layer with the bb gun, but it didn't introduce gunplay first.
Moving a little further, when you encounter butch bullying amata, you have several options to resolve it without violence, violence is the last resort here; violence is the second option here.
Comparing this to fallout 1, you're just put in a cave with rats, no discussions, just either kill the rats or run past them.
New vegas almost immediately starts with a tutorial on guns which isn't as buried as the fallout 3's butch bullying amata.
5:58 - escaping vault 101 - Ok so right at the start, amata offers you a gun, you can decline it or accept it. But if you insist that she keeps it, just a bit later she will actually use it in the interogation scene with her father and officer mac; so you don't have to rescue her, she can rescue herself. I can't really think of any type of quest like this in fallout 1, 2, or even new vegas like this.
Moving on, butch comes up to you with a quest, his mother is being attacked by roaches. There's different ways to resolve this, but a really interesting one is being able to persuade him to save her himself by giving him your bb gun. You basically persuaded an NPC to resolve their own mess, that's pretty interesting and again, I can't think of a similiar quest in any of the fallout games.
I suppose you can say that new vegas' "ghost town gunfight" is similiar since you're arming the civilians there, but even then, the fight doesn't trigger until your there to trigger it; butch on the other hand once he gets the weapon, runs out to solve the problem himself, you don't have to follow him for the game to register.
The escape itself has different options, you can steal the key to the overseer's from his bedroom, you can threaten him, a tape, etc... fallout 3's message is clear: explore thoroughly and you'll find alternative solutions.
7:54 - officer Kendall - Some people seem annoyed that you can't talk down officer kendall, or even talk to him at all (the first guard from when you're escaping). But you can very easily just run past him as he attacks the roaches, he's just trying to fight the roaches; and he never seems to die to them anyway. In fact, it's very easy to escape the vault without killing anyone: using the roaches as a distraction, you can avoid the guards in the HM corridor by sneaking past them, there's even a specially recorded dialogue option from amata to say if you sneak past everyone. So the game is fully aware this could be an option.
I don't see a problem people have with this, you can solve different problems in different ways, there's different skill checks, etc...
Some people even mentioned they don't like the beginning because they don't like how you start in a vault (a small place), but that's kinda the point, you start the game in a small, dark place, because it makes the wasteland feel so much bigger when you get there.
9:22 - eixiting vault 101 - fallout 3's exiting of the vault is one of the best things in gaming. Just so much of it is perfect, when you step out, your eyes adjust to the white light for the first time; the wasteland is all spread out right infront of you, the orientation of the vault and it's elevation so you can see the capital building, the washington monument, it's just so good that even new vegas and fallout 4 copied it, albeit not as well.
Fallout 3 places you in the middle of the map, so you can just run in any direction you want to, which is nice if you compare it to new vegas. New vegas has a solid wall to the west, and a narrow canyon to the north.
One of the things people like about fallout 1 is being able to go to the end game from vault 13, but you can basically do the same thing in fallout 3 too, e.g. in fallout 3 you can immediately start running west and reach a majo plot area.
11:42 - going to megaton - How is it the game directs you to megaton? Sure there's a questmarker, but not everyone is gonna realise what that means, not everyone is even gonna respond to it. Let's just say you want to do some exploring. When you step out of valut 101, the natural arch of the cave encourages you to not go to whatever is behind you, this is reinforced by there not being any lankmarks in your compass too. When you first step out, there is a small sign that will be of interest to some people, if you go to it, you can see the road to springvale, as well as the broken buildings there. Even if you ignore the sign and just go down, you'll notice that the more interesting view is to the left (springvale), on the right there's just more rocks.
Once you get to springvale you get to see the eyebot in the distance, the bright flash of red (nuka cola machine), and the red rocket sign, all this draws you closer to megaton, eventually you encounter a sign for it.
13:02 - entrance to megaton - megaton is an interesting place. I really like megaton, and partly because of that is because it's great visual design, it's easy to get attached to (and remember) a place if it's designed interestingly. For example, I know where everyone lives in megaton, but new vegas' goodsprings, which has a smaller population, I only found out easy pete sleeps in the long three room house in the middle of town. I think part of the problem is that goodsprings is just a town, made up of a group of houses, it's hard to remember and be interested in it because of that.
13:56 - megaton's bomb - Some people realllly hate the bloody bomb because it's odd to build a town around a bomb. But this never bothered me though, cause I always thought there was a fairly sensible reason for it, because of the water. When the bomb hit, it didn't detonate, but it made a crator that had water reserves there, deep enough for a populace. Sure it's radioactive, but so is all water, in fact, it's even less radioactive than the water at the river...
14:59 - power of the atom quest - sheriff wants to disarm the bomb, but the Mister Burke wants to blow it up. Many people dislike this because it's one of those "computer gamey morale choices", where the bad option is such supervillainous bad that it becomes ridiculous; why would anyone even want to blow it up? If you examine the mechanics of the game, then it makes a bit more sense: the good solution normaly pays 100 caps, 500 with a fairly hard speech check, the evil option pays 500 straight up and with a speech check 1000. There are also some interesting consequences, e.g. if you side with megaton, burke sends a team of assassins to kill you (eventually), the only way to avoid that is to do a speech check to convince him not to destroy the town. Or you can tell burke that you'll do the quest, get paid 500 caps, but then turn him in and get paid even more, and potentially stopping the assassins by killing him. Though I do agree with people saying that there's no reason to detonate the bomb, unless you're playing as an evil person. However, I do find that an odd complaint, because one of the most frequently raised issues for fallout 3 is that it isn't a proper role playing game, because there aren't enough choices with consequences; but right here you get the option to blow up a major settlement, perminantely killing major characters, a quest companion, shops, a very hard locked armory, a unique bobblehead, player housing, and the only character in the game that has any information leading to your father's whereareabouts. If you do decide to blow it up, you just have to live with it then, you'll even find the main plot has changed slightly saying that "continue the search for your father" and without a questmarker this time. Not even new vegas did this, e.g. if you kill beagle, he has a tape on him that just tells you what he'd normally say; kill manny? The information is right there on his terminal.
Also, I think the bomb is interesting thematically, as weapons of mass destruction come up repeatedly in fallout 3; e.g. in fort constantine you can find the launch codes for a continental missle, you can attempt to launch it but it will fail; though in a nearby satalight array you can trigger an orbital weapon's platform to drop a nuclear payload on the wasteland and that one does actually trigger.
18:53 - fallout 3 is grim - the wasteland hasn't recovered from nuclear devastation, the pockets of civilisation are fragile and insecure; in arafu there're about to give up, in big town the people are pretty much initially completely dispondent, this is a game that dwells on the horror of nuclear apocalypse: "America is in ruins but there's still some nukes ready to go off yet." Fallout 3's world is haunted by it's nuclear past, whether that's with the water's radiation, old vault-tech experiements (super mutants), or the surviving weapons. This theme is powerful enough that new vegas would revisit it in lonesome road. If fallout 3 had a thesis, it would perhaps be clinging to the past, repeating prior mistakes, replaying conflicts, new vegas would pick this up too with the "old world blues" phrase, meaning "reffering to those those so upsest with the past they can't see the future."
This idea also keeps coming up in the main antagonists in fallout 3: president eden wants to wipe clean the slate of anything post war no matter the casualties; braun wants to recreat the old world, even if it means living the rest of this life in a simulation; the overseer is so scared of his change that he'd rather gundown his own people.
20:37 - cotinueing with megaton - you have to get some info on your dad, you can do this in many ways, do a quest for moriety, steal his key, steal his tape, get some info from his customers, etc...
A lot of fallout 3's quests are like this, e.g. let's skip forward abit on little lamplight...
21:26 - some info on little lamplight - there were a couple of reviews I read/saw that claimed little lamplight is the peak of bathesda's design choices; which the reviewers mention that it is "anithetical to the very core of fallout games". This is a bit confusing, because here's how that section goes: There's a guard at little lamplight, you can pass through by either a fairly tough speech check, a special charisma gated perk, or do a quest. The review mentioned earlier critizised that you can't just blow your way into little lamplight, which is weird because that would involve murdering children. I do kinda agree, it is unrealistic, but you have to draw a line somewhere, e.g. it's unrealistic to get better at computer hacking without actually using any computers (pumping points into skill via leveling up), insta heal stimpacks, etc... but you have to draw the line somewhere here, not every game can have red faction gueirilla mechanics included.
24:53 - quest for little lamplight - To do the quest, you have to gain entry to paradise falls,
Ok, fuck this, my head/hands hurts and this is getting annoying; either watch the fucking video or not, lock this thread, I don't give a shit anymore.
Okagron
Prophet
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2018
- Messages
- 753
Seriously, i turned to the left the second i left Doc Mitchell's house and i saw corn being grown and those mutated bisons being herd. It's such a simple thing, but it just makes the world that much more believable. It just shows Bethesda doesn't give a shit about world building and they are more interested in making empty, theme parks that are baby proof.
That Manyatruenerd video can seriously fuck off. Dude comes up with some of the biggest bullshit to justify a lot of terrible design choices in Fallout 3.
Lazing Dirk
Arcane
I couldn't be bothered to read it all so just skimmed it until I saw those dreaded words.
I don't understand how this argument somehow works in favour of Little Lamplight. Yes, you do have the draw the line somewhere, and Little Lamplight is so far beyond that line it's past the fucking horizon. And you're comparing that to skill points? "Little Lamplight is fine because standard RPG mechanics can be weird sometimes!" Jesus christ.
I don't understand how this argument somehow works in favour of Little Lamplight. Yes, you do have the draw the line somewhere, and Little Lamplight is so far beyond that line it's past the fucking horizon. And you're comparing that to skill points? "Little Lamplight is fine because standard RPG mechanics can be weird sometimes!" Jesus christ.
Okagron
Prophet
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2018
- Messages
- 753
How the fuck has civilization not recovered or at least look better than it was right after the bombs fell? It's been 200 years. It makes absolutely no sense for the wasteland to still struggle this hard, it makes you question how the fuck everyone is still alive. Fallout 1 was 84 years after the bombs fell and somehow looks better than Fallout 3's setting.
Yeah, that's right, who could ever survive on wildlife and trade caravans?
I screwed up a bit on lamplight cause that's when my brain started to fizzle out.
Okagron
Prophet
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2018
- Messages
- 753
You mean the low amount of wildlife, where a big chunk are highly irradiated, therefore unedible and another big chunk are highly aggressive and extremely dangerous like Deathclaws and Yao Guai, and the ones that are edible are so few that they couldn't feed a group of people? Those trade caravans that consists of two dudes with crude weaponry that can barely defend themselves against mutated dogs, let alone anything above it? Not to mention no one is growing food, anywhere or herding the edible animals so that they can procreate.
Yeah, no. The world of Fallout 3 makes absolutely no sense and these pockets of civilization somehow being alive is completely unbelievable. New Vegas cared enough to have one of the major factions defend most of the trade caravans, with guards that have good equipment. Not to mention people growing food and herding actual edible animals.
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The low amount of wildlife is an abstraction, just like the town of megaton only has bout 2 dozen people in it, whereas in reality it'd have over 100.
The animals are irrediated yes, so what's your point? You can still eat them, in fact if you kill a molerat you can eat it fine, sure you'll get some radiation, but that's just the way of life? Just like how african children are alive now on shit water.
I donno what you mean by the trade caravens can't defend themselves, they could in my playthrough?
Obviously no one is going to be growing food, they can't, it's a wasteland, with lots of rocks. That's why they rely on wildlife and probably fish too since the river isn't too far away. The trade caravens probably come from other settlements outside of fallout 3's map too.
There's also the option of scavenging for food, like those food cans in the supermart.
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