Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Reapa]

Reapa I like most of the samples you posted, but then, I also like the intro to TTON. (It would certainly be nice if we reached the level of Stephen King's best writing, but even in my headiest arrogance/least depressive moments, I don't expect to pull that off.) I agree that TTON's intro doesn't fit with tone of the other texts you enjoyed. There is a kind of ironic detachment to it, and I can see how some people would find it off-putting. But I think it's a stylistic choice, as opposed to an absence of style.

I do wonder to some degree whether there is an imbalance in your comparisons between PS:T and TTON -- namely that you are comparing these side characters with virtuoso writing to an expository introduction. To be honest, I think I've benefited from that mismatch when people say nice things about the Meres: I think my job in writing the Meres and the side characters I was assigned was much easier than writing along the main quest path, and certainly easier to engage in the kind of high concept, poetical stuff like O and Xander. (I'm not saying I matched their quality, I don't expect that I did, only that it's easier to pull that stuff off in side-shows than in the main act.)

(Speaking of the Meres, I think I almost have the daylight to put in the bazillion edits that folks here have suggested to them. I don't want people to think I've ignored them on this, I've just been rushing to meet other deadlines.)

i'd describe the style of the writing as pretentious if that can be called a style. i see that it may be much too late to change the whole game at this point and maybe it's fine the way it is but there is one thing that really needs to be changed. a game with such reactivity will and/or should make people want to replay it. but the beginning, especially the tutorial is gonna come over as annoyingly repetitive and piss people off as long as they can't skip it.
EDIT: I'm giving it another go and i'll probably keep posting observations for a while.
1. It seems the pretentious writing may be solely the narrators fault. he probably also shouldn't comment on every piece of conversation i'm having with my followers.

2. it seems one can save the game after the fight with the sorrow fragments and use that save to skip the whole intro and the text based character creation. this is good but it's a work around.
3. i like the effort mechanic but not the randomness in dialogues. i feel dialogues should be based on motivation. if someone has a reason to tell me something he should do it. and if i for example am a good intimidator but i go up to the city guard leader i should not be able to intimidate him based on the nature of his job/power/connections no matter how good i am. i can imagine the skill checks have been tuned based on stuff like that but luck should not be able to make any difference. this may sound like a matter of personal taste but is actually a big design flaw. all it takes is for the rng to let the player "win" one instance of a hard test and lose an easy one to adopt a whole other kind of play style, namely save scumming. given that one could just save the game right before any conversation and just reload without losing any progress and the rewards being not only xp or content but both there really is not much incentive for the player to play any other way. AoD was widely played like this: save scum and level up on demand. what was initially planed as an incentive for people to replay the game over and over again to get different stories out of the same game and praise it for its reactivity and c&c content led to save scumming and people blaming the devs for forcing the player to save scum. something as simple as forcing the player to level up as soon as he got the experience would have made that kind of behavior very uncomfortable and unlikely resulting not only in achieving the desired effect but also better reviews.
4. the ui shows much too little information on status effects. i can see Callistege having a status effect with transparent copies of herself which i assume makes her harder to hit but i can't find any info on that. bg 2 for example showed every status effect right next to the portrait as a small symbol and the character sheet expanded on that with explanations of the symbols and quantities. like a small flame symbol next to the portrait and then the same small flame symbol in the character sheet telling you it's fire resistance and how much.
5. the camera randomly moves on its own back to my characters when i click on the ground to tell them where to go.
6. numerous misspelled and missing words.
7. found a cyclonic cube. seems broken. very weird dialogue options like "script node 6".
8. character progression seems dull/boring and fucking short. i see only 2 skill levels for every skill. very weird choice of cap. either make them perks or skip them all together and make everything dependent on the rng. stuff like that really kills my motivation.
9. discontinuing my playthrough. the story is not interesting enough to keep me playing. the game at this stage is a fucking abortion.
10. saving Ris was extremely unrewarding.
11. cyphers remind me of scrolls. scrolls do not replace character evolution and are a very poor reward for exploration.
12. many items don't seem to have any purpose. not even hints at a possible purpose. weirdness alone doesn't make for good itemization.
13. very few equip slots. like 5 + weapon/s. PS:T had 10 + weapon/s.
14. followers don't seem to have any goals of their own. if you ask Tybir "what should we do next?" while you haven't saved Ris yet he will tell you to move on with the main quest oO. anyone saying the game has good reactivity is a retard.

 

[Irenaeus III]

Woah, I hate Family Guy but that sounds exactly like the initial narration on TToN. I can't unhear it

 

[Reapa]

Woah, I hate Family Guy but that sounds exactly like the initial narration on TToN. I can't unhear it

peter griffin being stupid like that is hilarious and it certainly works for family guy but even there the narration sounds boring/annoying. in tton it's just boring/annoying.

 

[Athelas]

I don't think it's a good idea to narrate the opening of the game (and presumably other key story segments). It clashes with the rest of the game, where the descriptive prose isn't voiced. In say Mask of the Betrayer, narration was effective because narration was the only instance in which that game used descriptive text. It was stylistically consistent.

 

[Irenaeus III]

Woah, I hate Family Guy but that sounds exactly like the initial narration on TToN. I can't unhear it

To be fair, I haven't played much past the prologue (character generation) yet. So what comes after could be awesome, I haven't assessed it yet.

 

[MRY]

Reapa Keenan has publicly said that the first hour is under close scrutiny, so to the extent your concerns are confined to (or most focused on) that part of the game, they may be considerably alleviated. Many UI issues are also being addressed.

 

[Irenaeus III]

Great news!

 

[Reapa]

Reapa Keenan has publicly said that the first hour is under close scrutiny, so to the extent your concerns are confined to (or most focused on) that part of the game, they may be considerably alleviated. Many UI issues are also being addressed.

Sounds reasonable as long as the first hour is not an indicator of how the rest of the game will play which i doubt. I'm sure the UI will improve but or rather therefore i'm more concerned about the mechanics, itemization, followers, quests and story. You can't have someone who's life you've just saved start a fight and then just walk off even after you've taken his side. AoD had a lot of assholes but i don't remember seeing anything like that.
One begins to wonder what the designer of the quest/character wanted to tell the player. What was the character's motivation to act in such a way? What was the designer's philosophy? There are signs that the answer to that might be something like the world is a maggot ridden piece of shit. The very use of a skill that automatically reads the minds of the NPCs the player is interacting with suggests it. There'd be no use of such a skill if people weren't a bunch of lying sons of bitches. The philosophical value of such a view on its own is obviously very limited and i dare say, won't carry a very interesting story with interesting characters. If there is any more depth to the story it has to be clearly hinted at in the very beginning of the game or people might lose interest very fast. Remember this is a spiritual sequel to PS:T not Minecraft. but unlike PS:T's devs you're dealing with high expectations. Even Pillars of Eternity dealt with high expectations and they "only" tried to emulate Baldur's Gate. I'm not sure how aware you are of the fact that this thread is being ignored by a lot of people because they don't want to spoil any of the game's story before they can play it themselves. If this game fails to meet expectations in the story and character department there's gonna be huge amounts of butthurt. Which brings us to my next concern: the characters.
Zed said: "Torment didn't have a single normal character. Animated dead, floating skull, ancient samurai elf, demonic babes, a TV set, etc. These characters look extremely boring in comparison. They look no different than the average IRL art student. I hope the remaining characters are a little more spectacular." And i have to agree with him. The first one you meet in Numenera is a very generic/dull/uninspired human specter who only seems to serve as a tutorial advisor. The next two are a bunch of bickering children and again very dull/generic/uninspired human characters. And then the fourth one (surprise! surprise!) yet another uninspired, dull, generic, piece of shit, human character. You don't have to be Einstein to see a pattern here.
If changing this is what Keenan means by close scrutiny of the first hour then all is well. Otherwise i think i speak for a lot of people if i say he can go fuck himself.
Compared to the weight of story and characters i don't think mechanics and itemization are even worth discussing any more at this point. They are flawed but serviceable.

 

[Irenaeus III]

Would it hurt to start sentences with capital letters? Your shit is unreadable.

 

[Neanderthal]

zed said: "Torment didn't have a single normal character. Animated dead, floating skull, ancient samurai elf, demonic babes, a TV set, etc. These characters look extremely boring in comparison. They look no different than the average IRL art student. I hope the remaining characters are a little more spectacular." and i have to agree with him. the first one you meet in Numenera is a very generic/dull/uninspired human specter who only seems to serve as a tutorial advisor. the next two are a bunch of bickering children and again very dull/generic/uninspired human characters. and then the fourth one (surprise! surprise!) yet another uninspired, dull, generic, piece of shit, human character. you don't have to be Einstein to see a pattern here.

Made a thread over on Torment boards asking why Protagonist is so fuckin boring compared to Nameless, got told by one o mods that this is done on purpose for story reasons, seems like a bit of a fucking excuse to me but I guess proof is in playing an we'll find out why hes so dull in game.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I don't think they answered why the party members are dull, though.
Also, yeah... mods... unless that mod is an inXile employee that works on the game you might as well just ignore it. What's that "story reason" then? That there are many others like you (castoffs)? Unless that Sorrow is popping out identical clones that's still not reason enough.

 

[Infinitron]

Uh that was Brother None, not a "mod".

https://forums.inxile-entertainment.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=15208&p=167311#p167500

 

[DosBuster]

My theory is that it's because the Castoff is freshly born, or split off from the Changing God so they inhabit a relatively new body.

 

[Daedalos]

I want a new beta patch.

Make it happan!

 

[Reapa]

Would it hurt to start sentences with capital letters? Your shit is unreadable.

fixed

 

[Irenaeus III]

Thanks bro

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

The narrator is great. The similarity between him and Peter from Family guy (if there even is any similarity at all, I don't really know what you're getting at, it's certainly not the voice) is because Peter is speaking in a typical narration tone, that's the whole point of the joke.

I will agree that the spectre looks ridiculous and that the character portraits are rather shoddy in general, that's the only thing really bugging me right now.

 

[veevoir]

I will agree that the spectre looks ridiculous and that the character portraits are rather shoddy in general, that's the only thing really bugging me right now.

I started dialogue with the spectre and he handed me a non-fat, soy-milk flat white with "Nameless One" scribbled on it. Then I got cipher sickness.

 

[FeelTheRads]

wat

Maybe the PST references will be just as cleverly integrated as the Skyrim ones were in W2.

 

[SniperHF]

I started dialogue with the spectre and he handed me a non-fat, soy-milk flat white with "Nameless One" scribbled on it. Then I got cipher sickness.

I wouldn't worry too much about the items yet.

Of course if they do end up shitty, we apparently can blame Brother None if you read the InXile forum so that's always fun.


On the cypher sickness thing I think the limits are too low right now. Meathead glaives can only carry 2 without sickness right now yet cyphers are flying all over the place.
Also most of them are still pretty weak (supposedly being adjusted) so you have no real reason to carry them anyway for the most part. Gravity Bombs are p. cool though.

Another random tip, you can use the panoramic capture ball given to you for the stichus nest unlimited times. I assume this isn't intended but it's very handy to get past the annoying fog of war on any map you want. Makes the game look much better. The fog of war situation is better than it was during the AST's but it's still not great. Why have cool 2d backgrounds if you can't see them

 

[veevoir]

It was more of a comment on spectre's looks

As for cyphers carrying limit - there is a skill for that. Suprisingly, in vanilla numenera I think different classes have different starting limits, here it was universally set at 2.

Another random tip, you can use the panoramic capture ball given to you for the stichus nest unlimited times.

I'd rather test what the sound device in stichus nest does, I kinda used one option that ended its dialogue forever and then proceeded to murderize everything cause fuck alien cultures.

 

[ArchAngel]

I agree that companions look rather plain and unremarkable compared to PST, even compared to PnP Numenera.

EDIT:
Let me expand upon this. PnP numenera has some boring character options but also some pretty cool ones.
One is basically being a robot or at least a cyborg.
One is being encased in Ice and having control of it.
One is being a werewolf and all that comes with it.
One is being a berserker which while is not exciting looks wise, can be interesting mental wise if done well.
One is phasing through materials. Companion that had a accident while phasing and something is stuck in his body and he cannot phase through walls anymore and looks a bit monstrous.
One is controlling lightning and even be able to turn into one and travel from area to another. I can easily see a companion that is basically living Lightning that cannot turn back into a human.
One has mental control over all machines around him. Making a interesting character like Racter is possible with this.
One can control beasts. A companion could take physical aspects of a beast that currently travels with it.
Some control gravity or just have general telekinesis. You can make all kinds of crazy stuff with such. Telekinesis guy is even described in the books as having "living" clothes and stuff circling him all the time.
One can mind control. Having a slave master companions could be interesting.
One can work miracles. Having a God complex companions that thinks he is reincarnated God of some old religion and looks the part would be awesome. And since he can really do lots of miracles maybe he can even persuade you of the same?
Also Mutants can be anything you want, and have all kinds of interesting traits.

And then there are less unique character options like people radiating magnetic personality that draws others to them or those that are on fire or master certain weapon styles up to levels of seeming superhuman when using them.
Even a character that specializes in Murdering and being an assassin can be made unique by giving him a non human body and a drive of character like Dexter or something.

 

[SniperHF]

I'd rather test what the sound device in stichus nest does, I kinda used one option that ended its dialogue forever and then proceeded to murderize everything cause fuck alien cultures.

Combat always bugs out on me in the nest unfortunately. I always have to use the non-combat paths.

 

[Infinitron]

In an interview with Arvan Eleron, Nathan Long talks a bit about his work on Torment: https://youtu.be/mhlpViztcvw?t=2825

He created one companion, and also did most of the writing for a Colin McComb companion because Colin didn't have time. He also did lots of NPC dialogue in Sagus Cliffs and lots of writing in an area that was cut.

 

[Neanderthal]

Read Nathan Long's Warhammer fantasy books Blackhearts trilogy an later Gotrek & Felix ones, there alright, nowt revelatory but I don't think GW wants something breaking mold. Seemed a bit constrained by format, though that might just be me projecting onto his writing.