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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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- Most cRPG players died in an epidemics of infectious disease.
It's a simplistic explanation but I think the root of the problem is that the classics were made by people who had their experience in PnP to look to for examples. Nowadays you have people with no gaming experience, PnP or cRPG, who are just copying mechanics and concepts without a clear understanding why they worked in the games they are copying from. "It's isometric and you get to control 4 guys! Just like that cult game from 20 years back that only the cool people know about!"


1 - Setting is barely developed beyond than "Numenera anything goes.", it is weird for weird sake instead of building a rationale behind that weirdness. You won't find the Sensate HQ or Dustmen Mortuary type of location here. You feel alienated of the whole thing.
2 - Everything is painstakingly explained to you on lore dumps more than one time and as there isn't a proper rationale behind it all like the Dustmen faith, Sigil as the city of the doors, alligment determining the plane you belong to, the Lady of Pain and all of that, you don't have enough of a context to make sense of all that deep lore that kinda become irrelevant and make talking with the NPCs a pain.
3 - Your companions lack alot on the interactive department, a Dakkon kinda of moment where you go on a deep conversation about his faith and his understanding and doubts about it grounded on Planescape lore won't happen ever. Like Fall of Grace moment where she kisses you and you die because she is still a succubus even if a cast one or deciding what to do with Morte and the Pillar of skulls. How about Vhailor and you convincing him he doesn't exist? There isn't enough context and interaction with the companions, they are one note characters that are barely connected with their enviroments, don't believe on anything, don't desire anything and are boring.
4 - Everything feels random, like a typical theme park setting where nothing connects with nothing.
5 - There is major sloppiness on the main plotline delivery, they just brush off on the necessity of giving you a plausible motivation, on the necessity of introducing you slowly to this setting and just bombard you with out of context exposition, creating a feeling of alienation with the whole thing making it impossible for you to immerse on the game. Things start getting worse as you proceed and Deus Ex Machina moments start being pulled out of ass without any beforehand explanation.
6 - The tides system was butchered and there is only a vestigial form of it on the game killing one of the few things that could give some structure of rules on this barely developed setting.
7 - There aren't strong characters anywhere on this game, there isn't a Ravel or a Trias moment on this game. You hear alot about the characters but on the actual interaction with you, they are as straight as you can get. Don't expect a Ravel kind of wits battle here. The characters you know very little about will just regurgitate alot of exposition on you, the game will assume you care then something will happen to push the plot forward. The End.
8 - There is very little creative reactivity that Torment was known for.
9 - There are very few actual quests on this game, with beginning, middle and end, most "quests" are actually minor meaningless encounters. Not that Planescape Torment didn't have small encounters but it had extensive story arcs too. You go doing minor tasks after minor tasks without anything relating with anything and feel disconnected of the whole thing.

Damn, I could just paste this as my steam review. Totally coincides with my own impressions.
 

IHaveHugeNick

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Apr 5, 2015
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Not gonna lie, former Fargo supporter here. This is fucking hilarious watching InXile crash and burn. But in all seriousness we can't let this guy start another kickstarter.


Meh. I'm torn watching this trainwreck. Whatever you say about InXile, they are the only big KS company that at least tries to make an true oldschool RPG. Wasteland 2 with it's 7-man party, millions of bad builds, ammo scarcity, 50% jamming chance, was 5x more hardcore than anything HBS or Obsidian have vomited out. And so is T:TON with it's reading simulator gameplay. We can argue a lot of things, but one thing is certain, they did not make that for mass market. So I'm still convinced that the only chance to get honest to God big budget incline out of the crowdfunding era is InXile, and I'll fight anybody who says otherwise.

But the way they've been handling their shit is unacceptable, and it's not like this drama just exploded out of nothing overnight, this is at least 2 years overdue. Ponzi-scheme business model with multiple Kickstarters but nothing to show for, zero communication, cut content, constant delays, console releases, at some point you just have enough and want them to go to hell and burn for eternity, and I'm usually someone who defends developers until they are caught eating babies.
 
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Lurker King

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- Most cRPG players died in an epidemics of infectious disease.
It's a simplistic explanation

It's not an explanation! LOL

I think the root of the problem is that the classics were made by people who had their experience in PnP to look to for examples. Nowadays you have people with no gaming experience, PnP or cRPG, who are just copying mechanics and concepts without a clear understanding why they worked in the games they are copying from. "It's isometric and you get to control 4 guys! Just like that cult game from 20 years back that only the cool people know about!".

Yes, and even when they had access to a D&D license they can barely hide their own ignorance. It’s crystal clear to me that cRPGs occupy a small, if any space in developers' leisure time.
 
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FeelTheRads

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Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
But with T:TON that's obviously not what happens, because you win almost every skill check.
Probably would've been balanced differently and ended up in the same way, but maybe without HP and with only the 3 stat pools to depend on it would've been harder to pass every check.

Whatever you say about InXile, they are the only big KS company that at least tries to make an true oldschool RPG.

With this I can agree, but I'm not sure if it's necessarily intentional or it's just going by a checklist.

We can argue a lot of things, but one thing is certain, they did not make that for mass market.

With this I don't however. To me it's pretty obvious they keep trying the "oldschool adapted for modern gamers" formula which NEVER works, but they just don't want to understand it. You simply fail to satisfy both, "oldschool" gamers will laugh at your streamlining and modern gamers will cry they don't have a quest compass for example. Can't please them both, stop trying, retards.
 

Lord Azlan

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Jun 4, 2014
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So how bad does it suck? Sum up in a few short sentences pls.
1 - Setting is barely developed beyond than "Numenera anything goes.", it is weird for weird sake instead of building a rationale behind that weirdness. You won't find the Sensate HQ or Dustmen Mortuary type of location here. You feel alienated of the whole thing.
2 - Everything is painstakingly explained to you on lore dumps more than one time and as there isn't a proper rationale behind it all like the Dustmen faith, Sigil as the city of the doors, alligment determining the plane you belong to, the Lady of Pain and all of that, you don't have enough of a context to make sense of all that deep lore that kinda become irrelevant and make talking with the NPCs a pain.
3 - Your companions lack alot on the interactive department, a Dakkon kinda of moment where you go on a deep conversation about his faith and his understanding and doubts about it grounded on Planescape lore won't happen ever. Like Fall of Grace moment where she kisses you and you die because she is still a succubus even if a cast one or deciding what to do with Morte and the Pillar of skulls. How about Vhailor and you convincing him he doesn't exist? There isn't enough context and interaction with the companions, they are one note characters that are barely connected with their enviroments, don't believe on anything, don't desire anything and are boring.
4 - Everything feels random, like a typical theme park setting where nothing connects with nothing.
5 - There is major sloppiness on the main plotline delivery, they just brush off on the necessity of giving you a plausible motivation, on the necessity of introducing you slowly to this setting and just bombard you with out of context exposition, creating a feeling of alienation with the whole thing making it impossible for you to immerse on the game. Things start getting worse as you proceed and Deus Ex Machina moments start being pulled out of ass without any beforehand explanation.
6 - The tides system was butchered and there is only a vestigial form of it on the game killing one of the few things that could give some structure of rules on this barely developed setting.
7 - There aren't strong characters anywhere on this game, there isn't a Ravel or a Trias moment on this game. You hear alot about the characters but on the actual interaction with you, they are as straight as you can get. Don't expect a Ravel kind of wits battle here. The characters you know very little about will just regurgitate alot of exposition on you, the game will assume you care then something will happen to push the plot forward. The End.
8 - There is very little creative reactivity that Torment was known for.
9 - There are very few actual quests on this game, with beginning, middle and end, most "quests" are actually minor meaningless encounters. Not that Planescape Torment didn't have small encounters but it had extensive story arcs too. You go doing minor tasks after minor tasks without anything relating with anything and feel disconnected of the whole thing.

Hate to say this right now as I want more time.

Deepocean knows TRUTH.
 
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Sacred82

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4 - Everything feels random, like a typical theme park setting where nothing connects with nothing.

I disagree, the common thread of the Ninth World is a lack of morals and prevalence of opportunism, kinda like pre-WWII Germany. This isn't random, but a consequence of its chaotic state. It's not grounded in history, and what little history is known is sketchy. Any soldier of fortune can go and stumble over some old technological artifact and seize power. Knowing that many civilizations have gone before and failed probably isn't much of a motivation to think ahead, either. Contrary to Planescape, there are no magic alignment powers (the Tides are nothing if not underwhelming for most practical purposes). People regard the Endless Battle simply as an opportunity, and it's a more universal conflict than the Blood War. Also, it doesn't need to draw on death and suffering at every turn to create a feeling of bleakness. The lack of a moral (or any other) compass reinforces the question of what does one life matter.
 

Sentinel

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Not gonna lie, former Fargo supporter here. This is fucking hilarious watching InXile crash and burn. But in all seriousness we can't let this guy start another kickstarter.


Meh. I'm torn watching this trainwreck. Whatever you say about InXile, they are the only big KS company that at least tries to make an true oldschool RPG. Wasteland 2 with it's 7-man party, millions of bad builds, ammo scarcity, 50% jamming chance, was 5x more hardcore than anything HBS or Obsidian have vomited out. And so is T:TON with it's reading simulator gameplay. We can argue a lot of things, but one thing is certain, they did not make that for mass market. So I'm still convinced that the only chance to get honest to God big budget incline out of the crowdfunding era is InXile, and I'll fight anybody who says otherwise.

But the way they've been handling their shit is unacceptable, and it's not like this drama just exploded out of nothing overnight, this is at least 2 years overdue. Ponzi-scheme business model with multiple Kickstarters but nothing to show for, zero communication, cut content, constant delays, console releases, at some point you just have enough and want them to go to hell and burn for eternity, and I'm usually someone who defends developers until they are caught eating babies.
I'd agree with you on the points about "tries to make true oldschool RPGs". The problem here is the word "tries".
Old school RPGs had bad builds and generally hardcore mechanics (compared to today's RPGs), that is true, but they had always something else to compensate - be it very nice characters or a story.
InXile's games have none of those. They have the hardcore mechanics nailed down, and then they have the hardcore shit everything else. Characters? Two games, nothing to show. Story? Two games, nothing to show. Soundtracks? Two games, nothing to show.
They're Troika Games without the writing and art team.
 

Quillon

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
5,297
So how bad does it suck? Sum up in a few short sentences pls.
PoE ended up doing Torment better than Numenera.
lol if its true.

I finally could progress beyond the first market square area into underbelly, then some vithrack-like creature teleported or "tunnelled" me to some lair... I feel lost.

Tides are what? Reputations/dispositions? I can't keep track of why I'm getting which tides... benevolent & deceptive acts both gave me silver tide at different points, got red & gold after similar acts also, then got some indigo... colorful game!
 

Sentinel

Arcane
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Nov 18, 2015
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So how bad does it suck? Sum up in a few short sentences pls.
PoE ended up doing Torment better than Numenera.
lol if its true.

I finally could progress beyond the first market square area into underbelly, then some vithrack-like creature teleported or "tunnelled" me to some lair... I feel lost.

Tides are what? Reputations/dispositions? I can't keep track of why I'm getting which tides... benevolent & deceptive acts both gave me silver tide at different points, got red & gold after similar acts also, then got some indigo... colorful game!
They're reputations/dispositions except they have no impact on anything. They're there just for show.
 
Vatnik
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Sep 28, 2014
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then some vithrack-like creature teleported or "tunnelled" me to some lair... I feel lost.
I got a friend who played through BG2 without reading a single line of text. This is how I imagine he'd be playing Tton as well. On an unrelated note, he's refusing to play Tton as long as there's no mod to change the nu-male avatar.
 

DeepOcean

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Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,404
So, If I didn't like Pillars for dumping walls of meaningless exposition with no context on me, I wont like Tides will I?
Yep, Pillars suffers from similar problems but as it is a traditional, "Get shinning thing and stick shinning thing on monster to get an even shinier thing then repeat.", it doesn't suffer so much from it as you can focus on the gameplay and treat the main story as a secondary thing. On a Torment style storyfag RPG, the story and gameplay are more connected meaning bad writing can be even more damaging.
 

ga♥

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Feb 3, 2017
Messages
8,079
So, If I didn't like Pillars for dumping walls of meaningless exposition with no context on me, I wont like Tides will I?
Yep, Pillars suffers from similar problems but as it is a traditional, "Get shinning thing and stick shinning thing on monster to get an even shinier thing then repeat.", it doesn't suffer so much from it as you can focus on the gameplay and treat the main story as a secondary thing. On a Torment style storyfag RPG, the story and gameplay are more connected meaning bad writing can be even more damaging.


I think people are forgetting how bad POE is, especially gameplay wise, with 3 types of monsters, all the trash mobs, meaningless items, no exp on killing enemies, and boring crap story.

It doesn't reward you with "shiny things" they are pretty much the same (balanced TM).
 

Freakydemon

Educated
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Jan 14, 2017
Messages
53
Just finished the game after 38ish hours. Turn-based combat and the spartan amount of it spread over the game was interesting enough, nothing great but it was functional with its almost complete lack of filler fights. Gets way too easy by mid point of the game though with plenty of cyphers and character upgrades or equipment readily available.
Skill checks needed a way greater range of difficulty, they become kind of a joke some hours in. Don't think I failed more than 10 checks throughout the game or at least I don't remember their failure being significant or interesting.
Several plotlines throughout the game from minor quest lines feed back into the main story regularly and aptly even if it only becomes clear they are connected hours later.
It feels like the tides feed into almost any conversation but can't really say how much until I replay the game with radically different tides. Ending was pretty good and gives several different options.
Generally very high quality writing in dialogues with plenty of checks (f only they weren't so easy), occasionly it really drops the ball with infamous "rotting bell" being a good example. Good world building through conversation, examining and items found in the game world. The setting springs forth pretty interesting locations & peoples.
The meres could have used some more artwork for the graphic adventure style they picked for this, maybe some animations and more sound effects. The concept and influence of the meres is pretty ace though.

Enjoyed it a lot but I do wonder what a numenera/torment game would be like with Larian's TB combat design + physical world interactions combined with the narrative/world designs of Inxile & friends. Can't have it all I guess.
 
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Sentinel

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So, If I didn't like Pillars for dumping walls of meaningless exposition with no context on me, I wont like Tides will I?
Yep, Pillars suffers from similar problems but as it is a traditional, "Get shinning thing and stick shinning thing on monster to get an even shinier thing then repeat.", it doesn't suffer so much from it as you can focus on the gameplay and treat the main story as a secondary thing. On a Torment style storyfag RPG, the story and gameplay are more connected meaning bad writing can be even more damaging.


I think people are forgetting how bad POE is, especially gameplay wise, with 3 types of monsters, all the trash mobs, meaningless items, no exp on killing enemies, and boring crap story.

It doesn't reward you with "shiny things" they are pretty much the same (balanced TM).
3 types of monsters
Wrong!

F0Bmgvr.png

all the trash mobs
Bandaged in 3.0

meaningless items
True, quest rewards and drops are fucking shit, WM1 made it a little better but it is still putrid shit and soulbound items aren't all that interesting.

no exp on killing enemies
Wrong! You get EXP until you fill the bestiary entry.

boring crap story
Wrong! I guess it was bound to be boring if you were expecting BioWare tier shit with a waifu to chase after in a revenge tale against an ancient evil. I liked it, and I'd rate Thaos above BG1's Sarevok.
 

Lacrymas

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Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,735
Pathfinder: Wrath
But being better than Pillars in the creative department is not hard, because PoE was as generic as you can possibly get. Any creativity outside of that is automatically better. That doesn't mean it's good or worthy of consumption. Stop setting the bar so low.
 

Gruncheon

Augur
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
125
I've played it now for a good six or seven hours. It's hard to even get agitated against it because it's mostly a boring slog. Two things jump out to me.

It all fits together extremely imperfectly. There's obvious questions that you should be able to ask Aligern and Calliste the moment that you wake up that you just can't. They clearly hate one another and you should clearly have an option to go "hey guys what's up here?" but you're just asked to choose between them almost immediately. Why the fuck would I care whether I get the tremendously boring man or the Mardi Gras parade reject? Why am I being asked to make a choice between two nonentities over a dilemma that I know nothing about? It seems insane to me that they thought that this was a good introduction. Did the devs not at any point sit down and think how the first hour of play feels to a new player?

It's completely beholden to Planescape without either understanding why Planescape was great or having the chutzpah to do a proper sequel. More often than not, it feels like what they understood in Planescape was that it was 'weird' which is obviously not the only reason that it's as good as it is. The weirdness of Planescape worked create an ambience where possibility. It was nightmarish and dreamy, allowing for an easy exploration of things beyond possibility. There's nothing as ambitious here. Instead, you get such grand moral quandries as "What if children from the past are now present children?" or "What if instead of being figuratively choked by your misdeeds you were actually wrapped in a caul of your literal misdeeds...coming out of your mouth and...they choke you. Weird, huh?". The Ninth World is a poor replacement for the Planes. It needn't be, but it is.

Maybe it gets better? Nothing so far is suggesting that it will. It's so disappointing that somehow all of the Kickstarter games that were meant to be creativity unleashed have been so flaccidly lacking in ambition or vision or anything really. It doesn't feel like a story that anyone needed or particularly wanted to tell.
 
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Sacred82

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a lack of morals and prevalence of opportunism, kinda like pre-WWII Germany..

:what:

A psychiatrist or psychologist - can't remember - who interviewed Germans (teens in the 30's) in the aftermath of WWII to form an opinion of them as a generation found them unremarkable except for the fact that they seemed to lack strong convictions and showed a readiness to adapt to their circumstances. After all, these people made the transition from foaming at the mouth nationalists to the quiet mousey Germans of the the late 40's - 50's very easily.
 
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Sacred82

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After all, these people made the transition from foaming at the mouth nationalists to the quiet mousey Germans of the the late 40's - 50's very easily.

Russia literally raped the fight out of them. :M

Only in East Germany. And that and their slavery to the Soviet system actually did less to eradicate national socialist thinking than the Western model.
 

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