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Torment Torment: Tides of Numenera Thread

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Lurker King

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Why the hell not? There's plenty of good work in T:TON, so these people can write. It's just that what they ended up writing is a collection of short-stories, some brilliant, some bad, but never converging into well planned novel. With more oversight and better execution, who knows what could've been. I can't help but think that Avellone also had it easier, working with a well-fleshed out, battle tested setting. I haven't read much about Numanuma, but it was still very much a work in progress when they started the production.

You don't get it, do you? Good writing in games is good execution of the narrative tied to quest design, not the literary quality of the prose. If they had one main story with better prose, it would still be a bad game, because it would be dissociated from gameplay.
 

DeepOcean

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Indeed, a more developed setting would allow them to avoid the "Hi, I'm Thereza, from the transimensional planet of the race of the four dick trannies, please read this prose describing how weird and hypnotic my four dancing dicks are, Im a MYSTERIOUS tranny from a MYSTERIOUS race from a MYSTERIOUS planet." but I dunno if it would help with the main plot of the game.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
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FUN FACT: Pokémon is a turn-based RPG with much deeper combat than Wasteland 2.

Sad, but true. That is a pattern that I’m noticing about cRPGs. I got in love with the genre because I thought I could find more complexity than in other genres, but the more games I play, the more disillusioned I get. You can find more challenge in platformers and race games; better combat in strategy or stealth games; better art and story in triple-A games, etc. It seems that I’m a sucker holding a bag of excrement in the vain hope that some day developers will suddenly learn their craft.

Or, is it possible you actually do not like crpgs? Just stick to your hipster shit and leave this genre to the people who are fans of it.
 

Black Angel

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Or, is it possible you actually do not like crpgs? Just stick to your hipster shit and leave this genre to the people who are fans of it.
Whose alt is this?

Ehm, I mean,

What can change the nature of an alt?

Err, I mean,

What does one alt matter?
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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I got to know MRY made that Endless horror quest, please son, convince Ziets to leave this joke of a company and go you and him make an incline game because I won't give a cent to Brian Fargo anymore.
To be clear, I didn't design the Endless Horror quest. I wrote Inifere, Inifere's Mere, and most of the relevant other text related to the Severed Child quest. But I didn't "design" that quest, either -- I just did the writing. As a practical matter, conversations entail both design and writing, but in terms of the "go to this guy and then to that guy" stuff, that was someone else's work -- Adam's, I think, as I believe Valley of Dead Heroes was his. I just did the talks, with their twists and turns and outcomes, knowing that there had to be, e.g., a way to get such-and-such information or that a conversation had to have the option of going into a Mere or of battling, etc. And the Crises and tussles in that area were someone else's, too.

I'm really pleased at the praise, but I also think there may be some asymmetry between my writing and the other writers' -- I probably spent a lot longer per character than they did because I had the luxury of doing so. My "billing rate" was low, my work was viewed (I think?) as essentially gratuitous in the sense that it wasn't tightly budgeted for -- if I could write another character, great! If not, Gavin or someone else could pick it up, or the character could be dropped, or whatever. I mean, it's not like I have other people's timesheets, but I know when I'd check my files into Perforce, I'd see like a dozen conversations knocked out by Gavin or Colin in the time I did mine. And Nathan could bang out Meres in like a few days, whereas it took me a few weeks.

Longish response to the idea of going to do another game, spoilered because tl;dr.
Obviously the last thing I'd do would be to try and lure people away from inXile, given the great kindness they showed me, but in any event, I don't want to make a game like TTON, or even work on one again. That said, I think that Ziets is amazing -- I think the same of other folk I worked with, too. I had the chance to work with Kevin again at his new gig, but unfortunately I just don't have the time or (to be honest) interest to jump into another thing like that, and frankly I'm sure that Neal Hallford will be more than able to do worldbuilding. :D Likewise, I had the opportunity to work on WL3, but it seemed likely to be the same experience all over again, in a setting less suited to my pompous style.

A game like Torment is so large and sprawling that, unless you can sacrifice everything else in your life as Avellone did for Torment, or Vince did for AOD, you can't really have much control over it. The absurdity is that short of people specifically calling out my tiny contribution, there's sort of no tangible upside for the TTON work*, whereas with a tiny game like Primordia, when people talk about the game they're talking about what I did, and I can (when WEG is not in some way interposed) deal with them directly -- for example, replacing the game with another game key if they're unsatisfied, or talking through their problems with it. [* I did get paid, but the money would not be enough to induce me. I probably could've made more as a waiter.]

It's very weird being in the position where my role on the game is basically invisible because when people are annoyed, it's not really my place to talk with them and work through it. On Primordia, my usual shtick is to say, "All your criticisms are valid, I'm sorry the game failed you, here are some more things I think are wrong with it, let me know how I can make it up to you." But in this case, I can't say something like that since it's one thing to beat up on my own game and something else to do so when I'm a small part of a team of people I highly respect. At the same time, I can't possibly help patch the things that people are complaining about because the amount of resources are astronomical and I couldn't provide them even if I wanted to. When people complained that Primordia lacked a "how to play" screen, I added one; when they said that a couple cinematics sucked, we redid them -- they were right. And for years (when WEG would let us patch) we went through fixing every bug brought to our attention, and bug-hunting ourselves. But if someone says that the UI is off on the TTON Meres, I can't do anything about it -- I can't apologize or fix it, I can't publicly sympathize, I can't offer to replace the game. By the same token, when someone says, "This is the greatest RPG writing since PS:T's" they're not talking about me, they're talking about Colin, Gavin, George, Adam, Chris, etc., though in practice even George, Adam, and Gavin will get little public credit for it (notwithstanding George's great Forbes interview), and even Colin is hit or miss -- it probably will be packaged as Obsidian's Avellone, Rothfuss, and Fargo's work because that's how game reporters work. :/ Ultimately, this posture wreaks havoc on both my vanity and my guilt: I view my writing as pretty personal, but I also view games as commercial entertainment, so if my writing doesn't entertain the player, I've failed, and he deserves an apology and a refund. On a big project, you wind up somewhat alienated from your writing and thus incapable of taking ultimate responsibility for it with the customers, for better and worse.

I'd rather work on something smaller that I can control in my free time, and right now that's Fallen Gods. It's funny because, coincidentally, it too begins with the P.C. falling out of the sky, but I swear that predated TTON. :/ On Fallen Gods, I can take the blame for everything -- any shortcomings of anyone else on the project is a product of my poor direction or poor compensation. And while I can share the credit freely, I can also feel confident that any credit it gets is at least mine to tithe.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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Lmao. Pillars went on -60% sale and they are currently on top 10 top sellers, with T:TON sitting sadly at #23.

Feargus you sneaky motherfucker, twisting the knife in Brian's back like this?

:slamdunk:

Feargus "Business is Business" Urqhart

Turns out there's plenty of steel, hidden under that teddy bear costume Feargus is usually wearing.

The Jolly Hamster has shown his steel sharp teeth.
Et tu, Vince? Not to mention GOG. It's like the final mission of Brood War.
 
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Severian Silk

Guest
I played PST too late to really feel immersed in the game. Maybe if I had played PST in the 1990s I would feel more attached to it. So I can't really say I was hoping for "more of the same" in TTON.

Too bad TTON sucks tho.
 

Lady_Error

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Nice bait. I will just reply to this, mostly because I don't even care to prove the lack of variety combatwise in POE, it's self evident to anyone who played the game and the billions of xaurips.

You're behind the times, ga <3

POE is considered :obviously: now and in a couple years, when the butthurt has decreased, the same will be said of Torment.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Among the IE games, I'd say BGII is best suited for new players.

No. No it isn't. Like, no, it really isn't.

(Sauce? It was the first IE game I played, and I really really really really really REALLY hated it, keeping going out of sheer bloody-mindedness. Until then eventually it clicked and I started to really love it. The great thing about BG2 is that the more you know about it, the better it gets. The bad thing is, if you don't know anything about it, it really wants to make you hate it. Simple example: you'll be running into enemies with immunity to nonmagical weapons almost from the get-go. If you haven't played BG1, IWD or similar, you won't be expecting this, and you will be getting mugged without understanding WTF just happened to you and why.)
 

HoboForEternity

LIBERAL PROPAGANDIST
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Nice bait. I will just reply to this, mostly because I don't even care to prove the lack of variety combatwise in POE, it's self evident to anyone who played the game and the billions of xaurips.

You're behind the times, ga <3

POE is considered :obviously: now and in a couple years, when the butthurt has decreased, the same will be said of Torment.
yup. that's how codex butthurt works. they find whatever new thing to hate, and they will love the previous stuff they said they hate. it's a pretty entertaining cycle
 

Grampy_Bone

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Yeah, in all fairness, this is Techland selling it just on consoles, I don't think they went that far on PC. Still extremely bad taste though after all the Fargo's antics mocking the big bad publishers for doing this exact thing.



I love that. Brian Fargo, experienced game designer, pitching a game to "clueless business suit guy" played by an actual child. Ha ha ha. So funny. Business guys just don't understand!

Of course, Fargo *was* a Business Suit Guy running Interplay, and he did fire dev teams when games shipped, he did push out buggy games unfinished, he did waste tons of cash on useless tech, he did gut earlier franchises to chase trends and make a quick buck, and he did steal other people's IPs under shady contracts, etc. etc. Hypocrisy knows no bounds.

That video is pure projection; the kid in the suit is *also* Fargo. Woooooo! Spooky!
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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Nice bait. I will just reply to this, mostly because I don't even care to prove the lack of variety combatwise in POE, it's self evident to anyone who played the game and the billions of xaurips.

You're behind the times, ga <3

POE is considered :obviously: now and in a couple years, when the butthurt has decreased, the same will be said of Torment.
yup. that's how codex butthurt works. they find whatever new thing to hate, and they will love the previous stuff they said they hate. it's a pretty entertaining cycle
Yeah, right. People just changed their opinion about PoE out of nowhere. It's not like Obsidian released an expansion and constant patches for over an year addressing various concerns with the original release.
 
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Nice bait. I will just reply to this, mostly because I don't even care to prove the lack of variety combatwise in POE, it's self evident to anyone who played the game and the billions of xaurips.

You're behind the times, ga <3

POE is considered :obviously: now and in a couple years, when the butthurt has decreased, the same will be said of Torment.
yup. that's how codex butthurt works. they find whatever new thing to hate, and they will love the previous stuff they said they hate. it's a pretty entertaining cycle
Yeah, right. People just changed their opinion about PoE out of nowhere. It's not like Obsidian released an expansion and constant patches for over an year addressing various concerns with the original release.
what are you implyin' mate
 

Lady_Error

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Yeah, right. People just changed their opinion about PoE out of nowhere. It's not like Obsidian released an expansion and constant patches for over an year addressing various concerns with the original release.

inXile may or may not do the same, btw.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium II

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Doubtful. They can't really afford it. Tworment team will be on something new asap, it's how InXile works.

At most it will get bugfix patches and a DC with some restored new content.
 
Self-Ejected

an Administrator

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Yeah, right. People just changed their opinion about PoE out of nowhere. It's not like Obsidian released an expansion and constant patches for over an year addressing various concerns with the original release.

inXile may or may not do the same, btw.

You can't fix fundamental problems with writing, main story and implementation of the setting with a Director's Cut(or Directors Cut xD) Edition.
 

Fairfax

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not least at trolling the typical RPG player because she's just so weak for a prolonged period of time and minmaxers are bound to hate her (which is exactly the kind of subversion I'd expect from a new Torment game -- a meta-systemic subversion, if you will; a radicalization and subversion of the RPG power curve).
MCA is pretty vocal about how any companion must be good in combat, so that's not a kind of subversion he'd do.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Yeah, right. People just changed their opinion about PoE out of nowhere. It's not like Obsidian released an expansion and constant patches for over an year addressing various concerns with the original release.

inXile may or may not do the same, btw.

Wouldn't matter. Pillars' main problems were superficial (tuning, AI, balance, item properties, bugs). T:ToN's are fundamental (base mechanics, story, writing, map design, visual/graphic design and execution of these designs, UI design, core gameplay, lack of coherence at all levels except thematic, which errs too far in the other direction with everybody and their dead grandma going on about their legacy and whether their life matters or not).

IOW, there was a pretty good game in Pillars all along, it just needed to be dug out. T:ToN has some pretty cool ideas somewhere in there, but it took off in the wrong direction really early in the process. Nothing short of a complete remake could salvage it.
 

AwesomeButton

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I really like Rhin though; she's just so meta. Whoever wrote her did a great job -- not least at trolling the typical RPG player because she's just so weak for a prolonged period of time and minmaxers are bound to hate her (which is exactly the kind of subversion I'd expect from a new Torment game -- a meta-systemic subversion, if you will; a radicalization and subversion of the RPG power curve). Her writing is also extremely manipulative (pointedly melodramatic, waaah i'm a helpless little girl :clutches your hand: ), meant to coerce the do-gooder player into keeping her in the party. But there's also a lot of nuance when you start actually talking to her about her "god" etc; that part is simple but well-done. I hear she also gets pretty powerful later on -- but, again, in an unusual way: she doesn't belong to any given class, and the ability that makes her powerful has to do with cypher use, which makes her a natural part of the setting and not just a companion who could as well be in any other RPG.

She was written by Rothfuss. And yeah, it's definitely the riskiest thing they've done in the entire game, it's the kind of trope deconstruction I would expect from *gasp* Avellone.

In that twitch stream (page 74) around 2:00:00 he also talks about the character a little. He actually cries when she tells him his story, even though he was the writer. Bless him :D

Sauce? It was the first IE game I played, and I really really really really really REALLY hated it, keeping going out of sheer bloody-mindedness. Until then eventually it clicked and I started to really love it. The great thing about BG2 is that the more you know about it, the better it gets. The bad thing is, if you don't know anything about it, it really wants to make you hate it. Simple example: you'll be running into enemies with immunity to nonmagical weapons almost from the get-go. If you haven't played BG1, IWD or similar, you won't be expecting this, and you will be getting mugged without understanding WTF just happened to you and why.)
Your source is completely subjective. BGII was my first IE game too. You really hated it, I really loved it from the start. I would practically forget to eat until I saw that loading area tip about eating. It looked to me like the deepest most complex game ever, and I loved what I later learned was its over the top itemization. My only previous introduction to the system were two magazine articles I had read, and a CYOA game (Blood Sword, by Dave Morris/Oliver Johnson, its combat system, much simplified by comparison of course, also had negative AC). For my wife's introduction to the rules and setting, there is me, there is some 60 hours of experience from playing PoE, and her general culture in fantasy. I assure you, BGII is perfect as an introduction to the IE games in our case.
 

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